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Post by Tim on Aug 9, 2017 14:35:15 GMT
I know this is a serious subject but at the moment I can't get over a feeling of incredulity at the attitude of the Yanks.
They're running around threatening a country thousands of miles away from them - presumably in their self-imposed role as global policeman - and to an extent antagonising that country by carrying out military manoeuvres on their doorstep. How would they feel if someone like China did that Cuba or Canada?
They currently have the same attitude to Iran, citing the threat to American citizens. Here's a thought, remove all your American citizens back home, thousands of miles away from the 'threat'.
Obviously I'm not saying the N Koreans are innocent in this but actually in some ways the US are helping prop up that regime by giving it a bogeyman to blame.
I recently read a couple of books about the Korean war and it really doesn't make good reading for 'our' side. |
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Post by johnc on Aug 9, 2017 14:54:05 GMT
I recently read a couple of books about the Korean war and it really doesn't make good reading for 'our' side. But you have to remember the time and the fact that the threat from communism was real in so many respects. The threat from Hitler had been ignored for too long and that would be very fresh in the memory at that time, so swift action and force were considered the best tools to prevent the spread of communism any further.
The N Korean "problem" is a really difficult one to resolve. NK probably feel they want/need a credible nuclear deterrent to prevent attack against them even though no-one wants to start a war with them. Most other countries feel threatened by a hard line leader who lives an insular life and is surrounded by yes men. NK should stop issuing threats and increasing tensions and the US should ready themselves for trouble but keep quiet about it. At the moment it feels a bit like two drunks in a pub having an argument and you just know one of them is going to make a stupid move which will end badly for all concerned.
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Post by Tim on Aug 9, 2017 15:13:53 GMT
I recently read a couple of books about the Korean war and it really doesn't make good reading for 'our' side. But you have to remember the time and the fact that the threat from communism was real in so many respects. The threat from Hitler had been ignored for too long and that would be very fresh in the memory at that time, so swift action and force were considered the best tools to prevent the spread of communism any further.
The N Korean "problem" is a really difficult one to resolve. NK probably feel they want/need a credible nuclear deterrent to prevent attack against them even though no-one wants to start a war with them. Most other countries feel threatened by a hard line leader who lives an insular life and is surrounded by yes men. NK should stop issuing threats and increasing tensions and the US should ready themselves for trouble but keep quiet about it. At the moment it feels a bit like two drunks in a pub having an argument and you just know one of them is going to make a stupid move which will end badly for all concerned.
The bit I've highlighted above, that's Donald Trump isn't it!
Re the war, it's funny how things had changed so quickly with communism being the prime threat. The regime that was supported by the Allies in S Korea was made up of people who had actively supported the Japanese in WW2. It was decided, though ,that a pro-Western government was needed to enhance economic stability in the region In addition the atrocities carried out by SK during WW2 and the Korean war were apparently worse than those of the Japanese.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 9, 2017 16:35:24 GMT
I know I should be more concerned about this but I just can't see what NK has to gain by attacking the US, Guam, or even Pearl Harbour - they would be obliterated within hours, if not minutes.
It's the usual August nonsense from Kim that always happens when the US and SK have their annual wargames. It's for domestic consumption and I'm reminded of that speech in Macbeth of a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. And Trump seems the feel the need to enter stage right and have his pennyworth.
It's just a poor man's version of Frankie Goes to Hollywood's Two Tribes. We had proper cold wars back in my day...etc etc..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 17:02:53 GMT
The rhetoric from NK is for the main part aimed at SK and the US are just a sounding board to use as an excuse to throw more rhetoric around. That the Chinese government jumped on the band wagon WITH the rest of the council rather than vetoing sanctions is the point where it all gets serious. As for the actions of Koreans during WWE2 (There was no north and south until the Japanese were defeated, Korea being a province of the Japanese and the 38th parallel defined areas controlled by the USSR and the USA) they are better defined when it is understood that they were for all intents and purposes, Japanese. The Japanese did however show their more violent streak by arresting many thousands of young Korean women for what the Germans called 'comfort women' or prostitutes for the use of their servicemen. A certain US military officer made the whole situation worse by constantly stating that the Allied forces should not only defeat the NK forces but should go all the way to Beijing and suggesting the US should bomb China back into the stone age. The potential for nastiness has never been as high as it is now and this is as explosive as the Cuba situation ever was. Will we see the NK being dealt with? Possibly, there have been short sharp wars between the Chinese and Vietnam after all and they did not have nuclear weapons of any kind.
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Post by Alex on Aug 10, 2017 11:42:22 GMT
My concern would always be that although NK know they'd be obliterated if a fight broke out, they also know that whilst they go down fighting they can make a right bloody mess and kill many 10s if not 100s of thousands of South Koreans in he process.
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Post by Tim on Aug 10, 2017 12:08:11 GMT
I wasn't being entirely serious at the start of this thread. All the things that NK are doing that the US is whingeing about, well the US did all of that itself at some point. Nuclear testing? Yup Threatening neigbours? Yup and still doing it every day. Being generally bullying and not caring what the rest of the world thinks? Again, the US set the template. The US complaining about the threatening behaviour of NK? Well, how about having an annual wargames exercise off the coast of a sensitive country thousands of miles away from home? Or how about regularly flying nuclear bombers in the airspace adjacent to that same country? Can you imagine the US reaction if Canada or Mexico suddenly got friendly with China and did these things? There was some US representative speaking on Radio 4 this morning saying that where they felt their citizens were under threat it was fair enough to propose to take action against the aggressor. I agree, but actually taking that argument a bit further I'd say the whole situation has been made worse over the years by the attitude of the US so actually now that I feel generally threatened I feel that the UK Government should have a proposal for action against NK and the US  Mike, the atrocities I was referring to were those carried out by the SK side against its own people during the Korean war. There's an island off the south coast (possibly Sinan or Jindu) where they almost wiped out the existing population and carried out terrible acts, women were gang-raped and then had hand grenades inserted, etc. This was being done while the allies were fighting NK on their behalf. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 10, 2017 12:23:07 GMT
I wasn't being entirely serious at the start of this thread. All the things that NK are doing that the US is whingeing about, well the US did all of that itself at some point. Nuclear testing? Yup Threatening neigbours? Yup and still doing it every day. Being generally bullying and not caring what the rest of the world thinks? Again, the US set the template. The US complaining about the threatening behaviour of NK? Well, how about having an annual wargames exercise off the coast of a sensitive country thousands of miles away from home? Or how about regularly flying nuclear bombers in the airspace adjacent to that same country? Can you imagine the US reaction if Canada or Mexico suddenly got friendly with China and did these things? There was some US representative speaking on Radio 4 this morning saying that where they felt their citizens were under threat it was fair enough to propose to take action against the aggressor. I agree, but actually taking that argument a bit further I'd say the whole situation has been made worse over the years by the attitude of the US so actually now that I feel generally threatened I feel that the UK Government should have a proposal for action against NK and the US Mike, the atrocities I was referring to were those carried out by the SK side against its own people during the Korean war. There's an island off the south coast (possibly Sinan or Jindu) where they almost wiped out the existing population and carried out terrible acts, women were gang-raped and then had hand grenades inserted, etc. This was being done while the allies were fighting NK on their behalf. The problem that is unique to the Korea situation is that there was no victor in the war - it's only a ceasefire. Therefore it's entirely prudent that both the US and SK conduct exercises to test their readiness in the event the ceasefire is suddenly broken. In the same vein NK also conducts military drills. |
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Post by Tim on Aug 10, 2017 12:55:34 GMT
I quite agree Bob except that I'd say the US should've 'butted-out' years ago and left SK to do these on its own.
After all SK has more than enough military might on its own to match NK.
The US being involved just adds to the possibility of heightened tensions IMO.
Obviously its all too late to change this, it should've happened decades ago.
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Post by PG on Aug 10, 2017 12:56:05 GMT
The problem that is unique to the Korea situation is that there was no victor in the war - it's only a ceasefire. Therefore it's entirely prudent that both the US and SK conduct exercises to test their readiness in the event the ceasefire is suddenly broken. In the same vein NK also conducts military drills. Indeed that is a key reason why tensions are always high. I can't decide if Kim Jong-un is really clever or really stupid. Clever as he will push and push to get attention and maybe get money to go away or stop his nuclear programme (like Iran got from the US) - and his country needs money. Or stupid that he's ramping it up to levels that can't be ignored, so he's toast eventually, it is just a case of when. And I don't think the US or anybody else can decide either, which is what makes it all really dangerous. |
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Post by Tim on Aug 10, 2017 13:01:11 GMT
Clever in that he has absolute power and a fantastic foe on who to blame all the country's ills while he lives a life of total luxury?
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Post by PG on Aug 10, 2017 13:01:36 GMT
I quite agree Bob except that I'd say the US should've 'butted-out' years ago and left SK to do these on its own. After all SK has more than enough military might on its own to match NK. The US being involved just adds to the possibility of heightened tensions IMO. Obviously its all too late to change this, it should've happened decades ago. The US has remained involved for two key reasons. Firstly, China has always before sided with NK. After all, China took part in the Korean war and if they had not, NK would have lost. So while China remains a "friend" of NK, the US has no choice but to balance that by a "friend" to SK. Secondly, the US has always had troops based in Japan since the end of WW2 and the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan pretty much binds the US to defend Japan against any attack. And Japan see NK as a threat to them. |
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Post by Tim on Aug 10, 2017 13:20:07 GMT
Perhaps the US would've been better served by being more subtle about their support post-1953 then?
It doesn't matter anyway, doe sit?
We're where we are today.
I wonder, if NK do actually fire the missiles, the population of Guam will go outside to watch them fly past!
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Post by johnc on Aug 10, 2017 13:36:21 GMT
The bigger concern is that they have to be fired over Japan to get to Guam. The Japanese might just feel they have no option but to shoot them down once in or over Japanese airspace.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 10, 2017 13:48:42 GMT
I would have thought that a show of force by using the THAAD system to shoot down any missiles that pass over Japan might be the way to go. That said, I've heard that the THAAD missiles are not as successful at hitting their target as the US would like everyone to believe and that the Israeli system is better. It might be better to let the NK missiles fall into the sea and maintain the illusion of the US's imperviousness to NK missile attacks rather than demonstrate that some might be able to get through.
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Post by Tim on Aug 10, 2017 15:38:09 GMT
Won't the missiles be flying too high for the THAAD thing - I think I read that it gets them almost on final approach.
I can't imagine the US military giving up an opportunity to show off how fantastic and mighty one of their systems is, even if it might not actually be as effective as they think it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 17:45:37 GMT
I wasn't being entirely serious at the start of this thread. All the things that NK are doing that the US is whingeing about, well the US did all of that itself at some point. Nuclear testing? Yup Threatening neigbours? Yup and still doing it every day. Being generally bullying and not caring what the rest of the world thinks? Again, the US set the template. The US complaining about the threatening behaviour of NK? Well, how about having an annual wargames exercise off the coast of a sensitive country thousands of miles away from home? Or how about regularly flying nuclear bombers in the airspace adjacent to that same country? Can you imagine the US reaction if Canada or Mexico suddenly got friendly with China and did these things? There was some US representative speaking on Radio 4 this morning saying that where they felt their citizens were under threat it was fair enough to propose to take action against the aggressor. I agree, but actually taking that argument a bit further I'd say the whole situation has been made worse over the years by the attitude of the US so actually now that I feel generally threatened I feel that the UK Government should have a proposal for action against NK and the US Mike, the atrocities I was referring to were those carried out by the SK side against its own people during the Korean war. There's an island off the south coast (possibly Sinan or Jindu) where they almost wiped out the existing population and carried out terrible acts, women were gang-raped and then had hand grenades inserted, etc. This was being done while the allies were fighting NK on their behalf. Fair enough, I completely missed what you meant. Sorry. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 17:49:05 GMT
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Post by Tim on Aug 11, 2017 14:17:36 GMT
You should have a look at the 'boneyard' on google maps!
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Post by Tim on Aug 30, 2017 11:57:46 GMT
Here we go again  North Korea: "Don't carry out your military manoeuvres with our hated southern neighbours in sight of our border, it makes us feel uneasy, is antagonistic and we know you like to pursue 'regime change' against states you don't like." USA, USA: "We're America, we can do whatever want, whenever we want, wherever we want, so Fuck You." North Kore: "We've got some home-made rockets that we're going to fire randomly in your approximate direction." USA, USA: "We refer you to our previous answer, Fuck You." USA, USA: "PS. Our President's hands and haircut are smaller and weirder than your Presidents. Fuck You all." |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 16:16:24 GMT
It seems some folk think it OK for NK to carry out exercises, fire ballistic missiles and on one occasion so far, sink a SK destroyer? All the while, lambasting anyone else who does the same. Weird world part one million and two. www.bbc.co.uk/news/10130909Perhaps the NK's should poison their leadership themselves and save everyone else some trouble. No Tim, not aiming this at you or anyone in particular, just going by what I see on the interweb. |
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Post by Tim on Sept 1, 2017 11:00:02 GMT
I'm not taking it personally but your comment about 'lambasting anyone who does the same' could apply equally to the USA (and us, France, China, Russia, India, Pakistan and Israel, i.e. all of the nuclear nations).
I'm not sure how much the wider NK population realise they are being led astray.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 12:37:20 GMT
I just hope it calms down or it will be tears before bedtime.
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Post by PG on Sept 4, 2017 17:31:08 GMT
I just hope it calms down or it will be tears before bedtime. I think the tears may well be vapourised. The danger is that we don't know why NK want nuclear weapons. Israel, India, Pakistan have them for the ultimate protection. They've all fought conventional wars and not used their nukes. Are NK doing this so that the US and SK have to leave them alone? Or are NK actually wanting to use their nukes to destroy SK and the US people there in a first strike and take over, so finally ending the Korean war? If he is as mad as he appears, I fear the latter. However, there is one alternative narrative that I read about a couple of days ago. China have disputed territorial claims in the South China sea - over areas that Japan also claims. Are China using NK as their proxy to see how far the US can be pushed - before they decide to use force to stake their claims in the South China sea? That's an even worse potential scenario than North Korea.... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 18:27:31 GMT
Agreed that would indeed be a mess of beans as the Murcans say. The PRC voting for increased sanctions does seem to limit that scenario. Blackmail to get what they want is a norm for NK and the potential for a strike against the continental US could just be the leverage to get the US out of SK which would also help the PRC cause. Convoluted beyond any sense but then again they ARE the most paranoid of nations with a leadership to match.
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Post by Tim on Sept 5, 2017 11:13:37 GMT
I think the paranoia they have plus the US history of regime change is driving some of this.
Weird that Putin is looking like a voice of reason with his calls for reduced rhetoric or risk global annihilation!
We knew Kim was an arsehole and Trump is proving that he is the equal!
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