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Post by johnc on Dec 19, 2022 11:57:42 GMT
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Post by PetrolEd on Dec 19, 2022 16:22:03 GMT
Is this off the back of Mercedes announcing that discounts are a thing of the past? A one price for everyone model.
I'm sure Merc can dictate pricing currently whilst their order books are full for the next 6 months but wait until over supply kicks in. There's only one way to motivate buyers, become Porsche or Ferrari or apply discount.
Certainly if your BMW Audi and Merc they compete each year on volume. Don't tell me you can sell a load of B-Classes at a fixed price.
I do believe the old franchise model is a bit archaic however. If your interested in a certain car you should be able to pick up the phone and book a test drive for at least 24hours rather then turn up at a dealer and get the 15minutes round the block that appears to be the norm.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 19, 2022 16:29:14 GMT
It's an easy problem to solve; make the dealership experience more enjoyable than the online experience and people will vote with their feet.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 19, 2022 19:28:24 GMT
I used CarWow. Specced the car and waited for tenders.
If I wanted to choose between cars I’d probably put one day aside to go and look at them all then go home and use CarWow again.
Then again I have bought few bikes on line and in the old days from newspaper ads unseen and they’ve all been great. Apart from that Ducati. It was very shiny and nice but ultimately shit as an ownership proposition.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 19, 2022 21:02:01 GMT
I don't understand how people buy a car without a test drive. The current shape Focus but pre-facelift is supposed to be a great car. I had one as a loaner when the Kuga was being serviced earlier this year and couldn't bond with it. The windscreen pillar was in the wrong place for me and obstructed my view at junctions, I couldn't get a comfortable driving position. If I'd bought one without test driving it, these significant issues would not have been apparent until it was too late. Nothing beats a dealership experience. What is frustrating though is the pricing system; those with the best negotiating skills get the best deals
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Post by PG on Dec 20, 2022 8:15:53 GMT
I have for years thought that the car dealership system is not fit for purpose. It's the old organ grinder and monkey issue writ large, and even worse as the organ-grinder does not even employ the monkey - he's a sub contractor. As a buyer, I'm only allowed to talk to the monkey. And as the organ-grinder, the manufacturer relies on the monkey to be their point of contact with the customer. And as comments on here over the years show, there are some pretty useless monkeys out there.
So manufacturers owning the dealer network has always seemed to me to be a sensible route. The online v showroom thing is totally separate and why some in the car industry think that it ought to be any different for them sows their utter inability to see the future.
Many other industries have the same dynamic - and issues. When I started out in IT, a lot of business software - including high-end and expensive systems - were still sold by distributors. Authors wrote code, distributors had the sales, installation and support infrastructure - and many did very nicely out of that. But slowly, customers demanded more and more to talk to the authors and IP owners, and it ended up with many distributors being bought out by the software authors.
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Post by johnc on Dec 20, 2022 9:44:49 GMT
I think manufacturers prices will have to come down in some way. I really can't see myself paying full list for any car on the market. Perhaps a lottery win might persuade me to pay the asking price for a 911 Turbo S or GTS but that's about it. I spoke to a used car client yesterday and he said that the increased finance costs are starting to have an impact on customers and a quick look at the BMW website showed it would cost more a month to finance a used M4 than it would to buy a new one so there are a few issues to iron out here. Maybe 0% deals from manufacturers on new cars might keep their wheels turning but used car prices will need to fall further whilst used car finance rates are so high.
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Post by PetrolEd on Dec 20, 2022 9:52:52 GMT
I think BMW are now 12.9% Apr on used and with the new legislation in place you can't even haggle this down. Its got to cause some real issues. Having just looked at my mortgage I am going to be paying the equivalent of an M2 a month more in my monthly payments due to the rate increase! That focusses on the mind on what's important.
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Post by Martin on Dec 20, 2022 18:21:34 GMT
I think BMW are now 12.9% Apr on used and with the new legislation in place you can't even haggle this down. Its got to cause some real issues. Having just looked at my mortgage I am going to be paying the equivalent of an M2 a month more in my monthly payments due to the rate increase! That focusses on the mind on what's important. New car, just not using manufacturers finance?
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Post by Alex on Dec 20, 2022 18:47:14 GMT
The finance costs are having a dramatic effect because as with house prices, cheap finance has been a big driver behind list price increases and now the monthly payments are a lot higher buyers are finally waking up to just how expensive cars have got and are less likely to spend extra on options (which the premium brands rely on for their profits).
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Post by johnc on Dec 21, 2022 9:14:36 GMT
The finance costs are having a dramatic effect because as with house prices, cheap finance has been a big driver behind list price increases and now the monthly payments are a lot higher buyers are finally waking up to just how expensive cars have got and are less likely to spend extra on options (which the premium brands rely on for their profits). I wouldn't have a car unless it had the toys I wanted so I would be more likely to buy a fully loaded Golf R, Merc A Class or similar, rather than a less well equipped 3,4 or 5 series BMW or C or E Class Merc
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Post by Martin on Dec 21, 2022 10:13:53 GMT
The finance costs are having a dramatic effect because as with house prices, cheap finance has been a big driver behind list price increases and now the monthly payments are a lot higher buyers are finally waking up to just how expensive cars have got and are less likely to spend extra on options (which the premium brands rely on for their profits). I wouldn't have a car unless it had the toys I wanted so I would be more likely to buy a fully loaded Golf R, Merc A Class or similar, rather than a less well equipped 3,4 or 5 series BMW or C or E Class Merc +1 unsurprisingly!
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Post by Martin on Dec 23, 2022 10:36:21 GMT
There are quite a few brand new cars coming up on the Porsche used car search at the moment (50+cars), I wonder if that's down to the long wait meaning a change in circumstances or the interest rate increases? The silly premiums are coming down on cars like the 992 GTS and anything priced fairly sensibly is still selling (£100k 992s for example)
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Post by johnc on Dec 23, 2022 11:25:24 GMT
I have had a client cancel his Cayenne because he was told that the interest rate will be based on the rate applicable to the time at which the car arrives and he is just feeling it is an expense/liability that he doesn't really need to take on. His Discovery can soldier on for another couple of years.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 23, 2022 13:47:44 GMT
With rampant inflation, high interest rates on mortgages and car loans, high energy bills and still excessively long delivery delays on new cars, I wonder what is going to happen to new car sales in the UK in 2023? I have a feeling that they may fall significantly once people have seen their January credit card bills etc
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Post by Sav on Dec 23, 2022 18:00:26 GMT
With rampant inflation, high interest rates on mortgages and car loans, high energy bills and still excessively long delivery delays on new cars, I wonder what is going to happen to new car sales in the UK in 2023? I have a feeling that they may fall significantly once people have seen their January credit card bills etc Indeed so. I think a wider issue is that the customer today in Europe increasingly can’t have what they actually want. It will only get worse as we draw closer to 2030, and other European countries have similar ICE-bans. It does make one rather jealous of the Americans, who not only can buy what they want, but also get it delivered quicker because unlike in socialist Europe, interesting ICE cars aren’t vandalised and denounced as climate-wreckers. The car makers have been prioritising production for the US over Europe sales for some time. It will only get worse, as Euro 7 and the increasing guff that Euro NCAP requires sucks profitability out of selling cars here – none of which is needed to sell cars in America. Which washing machine do you find more exciting? Bosch or Zanussi? Feels like the future of motoring. Unless synthetic fuels can be accepted.
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Post by Sav on Dec 23, 2022 18:55:20 GMT
It was only a few years ago that BMW dealers were flogging 1-Series’ at £299 a month. I went into a dealer a few weeks ago and there wasn’t a single new 1 or 2 Series in sight. It is a sign of the times, the manufacturers want to prioritise chips for more profitable models, and that has influenced what dealers have. Mercedes have already said that they will stop making the A-Class and the B-Class, focusing on bigger and more profitable models. There was a time when all the premium marques were rushing to launch small hatchbacks. How times have changed.
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Post by racingteatray on Dec 24, 2022 23:14:54 GMT
I agree about not buying a car unless I’ve tried it. That said, technically speaking I haven’t tried the latest generation Macan GTS that I have arriving. But having driven an earlier GTS, a Turbo and the current S, I figured it wasn’t essential to do so.
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Post by Sav on Dec 30, 2022 23:05:01 GMT
Interesting piece in Autocar, they published their annual market-share round-up for all marques in the UK. Audi, BMW and Merc have all slipped slightly. The chip-shortage was cited as of the reasons, although it rightly points out that Merc are voluntarily giving up market share by not replacing the A Class or B Class. One does wonder where it leaves dealers; they will have fewer sales but the same overheads for the Taj Mahal dealerships that some dealer groups have created in recent years. The sales they get might be more profitable, but even for the bigger models like X5’s, Q7’s, 5-Series etc – the price that the customer got accustomed to paying will rise the next time around. Whether people are prepared to accept that higher cost will be interesting.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 31, 2022 8:42:25 GMT
Almost all of the new cars being registered over the past year were ordered many months ago,so to me,the registration figures are meaningless. Order a new car now, and not only had the price risen hugely over the past year or two, but the chances are that you will still have a long wait. Used car prices are still stupidly high, and there are still supply issues of many models. I thought I'd try to swap the Polo for something with auto transmission (I'd wanted an auto and was going to treat myself for my 60th, over 3 years ago but circumstances contrived against me) but there's nothing on sale that fits the bill. As one example, and no doubt many of you will laugh at what you see as my bizarre taste in cars) there's not a single Renault Scenic in the last shape sold in the UK on sale in the south east with the 1.5dCi engine and auto transmission. Even in my preferred colour choice of yellow with black roof and manual there are just 1 or 2. I've contacted a few Renault dealership and they're not even interested in taking my details in case one comes in. The car market, new and used, is in a crazy state and has been for some time. Cars in strong demand, such as recent Polos and Audi A1s, are selling used for about what they cost new 2 or 3 years ago....and worse still, buyers are paying the asking price.
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Post by johnc on Jan 4, 2023 12:29:00 GMT
I think Mercedes are making a huge mistake by dropping the A Class. The B Class I can understand.
You just need to drive along any road to see how popular the A Class is and we have lots around where we live. Years ago when Mercedes only sold large cars at high prices, their volumes were tiny by comparison to today. The dealers were small and specialist and the customer paid a considerable premium. The world has changed since those days and I can't see it going back.
Perhaps Mercedes look enviously at Porsche and their premium pricing but I think that's a mistake because it will take them a long time to convince the car buying public that they are anything more than a premium mainstream manufacturer as opposed to Porsche who are viewed as a premium specialist manufacturer with a niche and loyal customer base. Porsche's position may not even continue if the move to EV's and car monitoring by the State, results in no-one being able to exceed the speed limit momentarily or even corner at what some nannies might consider to be an inappropriate speed.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 4, 2023 13:35:24 GMT
I too was surprised when I heard about the A Class and B Class but, I'm assuming, someone's done the numbers and decided lower volumes, higher margins is preferable to continually chasing higher volumes and ever decreasing margins. The fact that you referred to Mercedes as "a premium mainstream manufacturer", something they've become, as opposed to a manufacturer of premium, luxury cars - which is what they traditionally were, perhaps highlights the issue. Mercedes used to boast they could spend an extra 300 euros per car on engineering excellence and could translate this into an extra 3000 euros on the selling price. I'm not sure that's been the case for quite a while.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2023 13:43:18 GMT
Considering the capacity Mercedes have for prodution mthat will likely mean shutting a factory or two, where will those closed facilities be I wonder? They appear to be saying that anyone wanting an A or B class will just stump up the extra for a C class, hoping fopr the E perhaps? Either that or the SUV types.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 4, 2023 14:40:14 GMT
Considering the capacity Mercedes have for prodution mthat will likely mean shutting a factory or two, where will those closed facilities be I wonder? They appear to be saying that anyone wanting an A or B class will just stump up the extra for a C class, hoping fopr the E perhaps? Either that or the SUV types. They might do a hatchback version of the C-Class to cater to the A & B Class audience...
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Post by Alex on Jan 4, 2023 15:09:21 GMT
I can't help wondering whether the majority of the A classes you see about, particularly those drive by 20 and 30 somethings were sourced using cheap lease deals and probably weren't ad optioned up to the hilt like their overpriced press cars so didn't actually generate that much profit. As that market shrinks as those buyers won't have as much access to cheap borrowing I can see how the numbers no longer stack up for that model. With sales also being cannibalised by their in house rival SUV models it probably makes sense to pull the plug.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jan 4, 2023 18:21:51 GMT
So thats no CLA, GLB, A- Class, B Class or GLA but surely they will be replacing the A-class chassis with a EQA/B etc?
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Post by ChrisM on Jan 4, 2023 18:37:23 GMT
So many manufacturers are stopping small cars altogether. Ford no longer make the Ka and production of the Fiesta stops in a few months, apparently production is sold out so you can't spec a new factory order. Focus production stops soon too. VW is talking of stopping the Polo when the current one is due for its pension. Its looking grim
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 4, 2023 22:08:06 GMT
It’s just too expensive to build small cars that meet emissions and safety standards now.
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