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Post by chipbutty on May 13, 2021 13:27:34 GMT
How many people who have caught the Indian variant are in hospital or are dead ? How many of those were already ill with something else that would likely kill them (or make them weak enough to die from flu ?) Has anyone who has been vaccinated subsequently caught an Indian variant ? If so, were any of them hospitalised ? Why wasn’t travel from India to the UK instantly banned as soon as the Indian variants were identified (months ago)
Why has there been continual drip feeds in the press stating that there is no evidence that any of the variants are resistant to the vaccine right up until the week when the most significant lockdown relaxation point is approved ?
What has changed ?, what new and amazing data have they used to reach this new conclusion ?
Could it be that after a few weeks of pressure on Bozo and team Doomster pointing out that based on his “ data, not dates “ mantra, he should be accelerating the release from lockdown, a bit of a scare on a new variant and confirmation that local lockdowns may be required after all is just a very convenient bitch slap ?
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2021 13:28:22 GMT
I have nothing against the SAGE members myself. It's their job to be cautious. It's the government's job to govern. And sadly our government is crap and stuffed with people elevated to their roles based on a set of criteria that did not include having any talent or aptitude for said roles.
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Post by Alex on May 13, 2021 22:11:59 GMT
I have nothing against the SAGE members myself. It's their job to be cautious. It's the government's job to govern. And sadly our government is crap and stuffed with people elevated to their roles based on a set of criteria that did not include having any talent or aptitude for said roles. They're like the Arsenal of governments really. Rubbish under pressure, good when it doesn't matter and determined not to be in Europe!
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Post by racingteatray on May 14, 2021 19:23:35 GMT
Nice!
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Post by garry on May 15, 2021 7:46:31 GMT
I have nothing against the SAGE members myself. It's their job to be cautious. It's the government's job to govern. And sadly our government is crap and stuffed with people elevated to their roles based on a set of criteria that did not include having any talent or aptitude for said roles. Really? I’d prefer them to be precise, factual and in the background whereas they seem to have taken a role that’s more about hyperbole, forecasting and being front of house. They should have never been given a platform- they’re one of many inputs that the government need to consider when making decisions. Make any health issue simply about ‘the science’ and you’ll end up with a myopic view - put SAGE in charge of alcohol consumption and I’m sure they’d quickly conclude that the only safe limit is zero, ignoring the cultural and economic impacts.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 11:49:43 GMT
Or the beneficial effects of "A little of what you fancy does you good", lifting our spirits (Literally) making us happier overall. Besides, even apes in the wild do it with occasional raiding of over ripe fruit, containing alcohol of all things. Balance, surely. Sorry Shirley,
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2021 18:07:00 GMT
I have nothing against the SAGE members myself. It's their job to be cautious. It's the government's job to govern. And sadly our government is crap and stuffed with people elevated to their roles based on a set of criteria that did not include having any talent or aptitude for said roles. Really? I’d prefer them to be precise, factual and in the background whereas they seem to have taken a role that’s more about hyperbole, forecasting and being front of house. They should have never been given a platform- they’re one of many inputs that the government need to consider when making decisions. Make any health issue simply about ‘the science’ and you’ll end up with a myopic view - put SAGE in charge of alcohol consumption and I’m sure they’d quickly conclude that the only safe limit is zero, ignoring the cultural and economic impacts. And who gave them a platform? The government - that's who. The government wanted scientific cover for its actions. The government is (ir)responsible here...unsurprisingly.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 16, 2021 19:20:01 GMT
Really? I’d prefer them to be precise, factual and in the background whereas they seem to have taken a role that’s more about hyperbole, forecasting and being front of house. They should have never been given a platform- they’re one of many inputs that the government need to consider when making decisions. Make any health issue simply about ‘the science’ and you’ll end up with a myopic view - put SAGE in charge of alcohol consumption and I’m sure they’d quickly conclude that the only safe limit is zero, ignoring the cultural and economic impacts. And who gave them a platform? The government - that's who. The government wanted scientific cover for its actions. The government is (ir)responsible here...unsurprisingly. Eh? The “anti governments” have all said that decisions should be science based, not political. Now you’re saying that they’re irresponsible for following the scientific advice. Your hatred for this administration is leading you to linguistic perversity.
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Post by racingteatray on May 17, 2021 9:44:06 GMT
Not so. I've said very little about whether the decisions should all be science-based or political. I am merely pointing out that blaming SAGE is precisely what the government wants us proles to do.
I might indeed despise this administration (not so much for the politics - strip off the populist crap and it's quite soft-right and not so different to where I sit politically - but rather for the truly terrible people in it, to whom I object deeply) but I can be perfectly clear-eyed about what's going-on.
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Post by garry on May 17, 2021 10:52:27 GMT
Really? I’d prefer them to be precise, factual and in the background whereas they seem to have taken a role that’s more about hyperbole, forecasting and being front of house. They should have never been given a platform- they’re one of many inputs that the government need to consider when making decisions. Make any health issue simply about ‘the science’ and you’ll end up with a myopic view - put SAGE in charge of alcohol consumption and I’m sure they’d quickly conclude that the only safe limit is zero, ignoring the cultural and economic impacts. And who gave them a platform? The government - that's who. The government wanted scientific cover for its actions. The government is (ir)responsible here...unsurprisingly. I agree, although I think of the government as incompetent rather than irresponsible.
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Post by Alex on May 17, 2021 11:04:44 GMT
I think it's a potent mixture of the two!
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 17, 2021 11:47:09 GMT
Scientists from SAGE have delighted in putting themsleves front, right, and centre at every opportunity, releasing new predictions on a weekly basis, and frequently at odds with the decisions the Government is making. If the public does lose patience with SAGE it will be their own doing.
I've not seen any SAGE prediction that is more optimistic than any of the 4 UK administrations.
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Post by racingteatray on May 17, 2021 12:53:55 GMT
Don't you think, however, that this (by design) operates to give Johnson much-needed political cover to take actions otherwise unpalatable to voters that are made to seem reasonable compared to the recommendations of the gloomier SAGE members?
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Post by johnc on May 17, 2021 13:02:38 GMT
Don't you think, however, that this (by design) operates to give Johnson much-needed political cover to take actions otherwise unpalatable to voters that are made to seem reasonable compared to the recommendations of the gloomier SAGE members? I don't think he is doing anything that any other Politician from any other party wouldn't do in similar circumstances - they all like to have their backs covered by someone or some group of people who are much more expendable.
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Post by Alex on May 17, 2021 13:24:20 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st.
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Post by Roadrunner on May 17, 2021 14:20:37 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st. This might just serve to highlight the Darwinism at play among those who have refused the vaccine.
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Post by Martin on May 17, 2021 14:57:44 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st. This might just serve to highlight the Darwinism at play among those who have refused the vaccine. Exactly! According to my eldest, his mum hasn’t had the vaccine. That stance will change very quickly if you need it to go on holiday.
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Post by michael on May 17, 2021 15:21:26 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st. 80% of those in hospital in Bolton with Covid declined the vaccine. One of the great problems with the NHS is that it’s everyone’s right and nobody’s responsibility. .
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Post by Alex on May 17, 2021 15:36:03 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st. This might just serve to highlight the Darwinism at play among those who have refused the vaccine. Or 'Darwen'ism given that's one of the towns affected. I think Michael's stat says it all really. I'd hazard to guess that the other 20% only had the vaccine shortly before infection so too soon for immunity to kick in properly. I'm just over 3 weeks on from my first jab and it does offer a lot of reassurance.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 17, 2021 19:33:07 GMT
Don't you think, however, that this (by design) operates to give Johnson much-needed political cover to take actions otherwise unpalatable to voters that are made to seem reasonable compared to the recommendations of the gloomier SAGE members? It certainly reduces his wiggle room and intensifies the spotlight on his decisions. I don’t think they help him in any way.
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Post by Tim on May 18, 2021 7:55:49 GMT
Don't you think, however, that this (by design) operates to give Johnson much-needed political cover to take actions otherwise unpalatable to voters that are made to seem reasonable compared to the recommendations of the gloomier SAGE members? It certainly reduces his wiggle room and intensifies the spotlight on his decisions. I don’t think they help him in any way. I think the opposite - those that don't like him will say he's using SAGE as a human shield, those that support him will agree when he drops SAGE in it and thos eon the fence will think there's fault on both sides. At the very least he won't lose anything by being able to share any criticism. Plus don't forget he's got Matt 'Fall Guy' Hancock as well
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 18, 2021 11:32:15 GMT
You can now pull forward your second jab on the NHS website. Cancelled my June appointment and getting it tomorrow now.
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Post by PG on May 18, 2021 13:21:31 GMT
There seems to be some reports coming out suggesting that the vaccines are working well against the Indian variant and the key reason its spreading in places like Bolton and Blackburn is due to low vaccine uptake among some sections of the community. Not sure how true that is but if the vaccine does help prevent spread of the variant it'll be a hard sell postoning the next step on the roadmap on June 21st. 80% of those in hospital in Bolton with Covid declined the vaccine. One of the great problems with the NHS is that it’s everyone’s right and nobody’s responsibility. . I read that statistic in the newspaper. So everyone else has to pay - fiscally and mentally - for the utter pig headed ignorance, selfishness and stupidity of a small group. Perhaps, rather than wallowing in doom, SAGE could now focus on something useful like calling out people who do not get vaccinated for the fools they are?
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Post by Tim on May 18, 2021 13:26:42 GMT
I'd support a policy where anyone who actively refused the vaccine without good grounds subsequently got turned away from the hospital if they got it.
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Post by chipbutty on May 18, 2021 16:34:51 GMT
The propaganda is working then.
This is a very slippery slope to a place I do not want to be. If it's a small group, then there is no way they are going to overwhelm the health service - how much longer can they keep kicking pulling that shit out of the bag. Let's go back to Jan when the target release date was Feb 15th when all over 70s and " at risk " types had been offered the vaccine.
Presume you are also cool with refusing to treat smokers with lung cancer, inactive fatties with diabetes and morons various who end up in hospital following their own misadventure ?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 16:59:27 GMT
Unusually for ITU's, the Chase Farm hospital in Enfield had a medical specialist in charge. He tested patients every time they went in for an appointment and had them sign a statement they would quit smoking. Anyone with CO in their breath would be shifted off the list for a replacement heart. He of course, got fired. A bit like the surgeon who transplanted a set of lungs from a smoker into a patient who categorically refused to have the lungs of a smoker. He did however, NOT get fired. Law, themselves and unto.
Why then, are we surprised at the conflicts within this problem?
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Post by Alex on May 18, 2021 20:48:55 GMT
I'd support a policy where anyone who actively refused the vaccine without good grounds subsequently got turned away from the hospital if they got it. I understand the sentiment but the doctors in the NHS would never turn away a patient who got ill due to their own misjudgment. I think the efforts would be better served taking action against those spreading dangerous anti vax propaganda. They're the real criminals here not those feeble of mind that they prey upon.
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Post by Tim on May 19, 2021 7:44:51 GMT
I'd support a policy where anyone who actively refused the vaccine without good grounds subsequently got turned away from the hospital if they got it. I understand the sentiment but the doctors in the NHS would never turn away a patient who got ill due to their own misjudgment. I think the efforts would be better served taking action against those spreading dangerous anti vax propaganda. They're the real criminals here not those feeble of mind that they prey upon. No, I know that and it'd never happen but it's frustrating that a simple fix could avoid a lot of these cases
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Post by Tim on May 19, 2021 7:47:05 GMT
The propaganda is working then. This is a very slippery slope to a place I do not want to be. If it's a small group, then there is no way they are going to overwhelm the health service - how much longer can they keep kicking pulling that shit out of the bag. Let's go back to Jan when the target release date was Feb 15th when all over 70s and " at risk " types had been offered the vaccine. Presume you are also cool with refusing to treat smokers with lung cancer, inactive fatties with diabetes and morons various who end up in hospital following their own misadventure ? Very good. They're very different things and the items you've highlighted are much longer standing and are being addressed. The non-vax folk have managed to get from a point of decent health to being in hospital in a very short space of time simply by choosing not to take a very simple course of action. Well, on the face of it at least.
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Post by Big Blue on May 19, 2021 8:43:36 GMT
I’m not a fan of the current administration but today I heard a member of the opposition accusing the government of giving mixed messages on travel following Monday’s rule change. I asked W2.1, who’s first language is not English, if she understood the message. Her reply:
“You can travel abroad. If you go to a green country you don’t need to quarantine on return. You should not travel to amber or red countries for leisure and if you go to those countries you will have to quarantine on return. The recommended course of action is to avoid going abroad unnecessarily but it is not illegal to do so.”
So what the fuck is not clear there, then? The government isn’t ordering us to go to green classified countries with immediate effect, neither are they banning us from going to most other countries (probably best to avoid Israel right now) but apparently we need to be told in Janet and John hand outs whether it’s safe to take a shit in a public toilet or not.
I said I’m not a fan of the current government but the total reliance on direct instructions either from the state, union leaders or other public bodies is a product of the left and that’s largely why I’ve struggled to accept their overall manifestos over time.
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