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Post by PG on Oct 31, 2019 18:21:06 GMT
Looks like PSA and FCA are planning to merge. www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/psa-group-and-fiat-chrysler-confirm-merger-plansYes there may be synergies from platform sharing and screwing suppliers down for more volume, but with that many brands can this possibly work? As one wag said in comments on the autocar article a few days "The French, Italians and Americans working together. What could possibly go wrong?" |
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Post by michael on Oct 31, 2019 18:57:47 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what happens with their Toyota partnership. I can see that ending (they share the Aygo and a van platform I think) end perhaps Toyota aligning with the new BMW/JLR operation?
I suppose the Panda/500/C1 and 108 can all be based around the same architecture now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 20:10:36 GMT
Is it a step too far though?
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Post by PG on Oct 31, 2019 20:38:58 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what happens with their Toyota partnership. I can see that ending (they share the Aygo and a van platform I think) end perhaps Toyota aligning with the new BMW/JLR operation? I suppose the Panda/500/C1 and 108 can all be based around the same architecture now. I expect that will happen pretty quickly. However, there was an interesting article in the DT online today about small cars v the EV issue. Basically, European manufacturers (and PSA boss Tavares was one of the people saying this) are saying that as they have to hit the 95 g/km target and then that is reduced as the years go on, a 99 g/km petrol powered A-class car (like the C1 / Aygo / Panda) is not viable any more unless you shift a lot of sub 50 g/km PHEVs or 0 g/km BEVs to offset it. And it is not really economic to convert cars that small to BEV or PHEV as the costs are too high and people may as well buy a bigger car instead. Toyota were the only people at the Tokyo show who were still buoyant about the small car market. Maybe their Yaris hybrid shows that they can do something economic in a smaller car and I see that the new Jazz is hybrid only. What this really means maybe is that the European manufacturers are behind in the race to make small hybrid cars economic. They were all relying on diesel cars to average down their CO2 levels. |
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Post by bryan on Nov 1, 2019 6:20:56 GMT
I was a little surprised VW didn't Wade in with an offer for Fiat. They would have got Alfa and increased their American reach. Guess the coffers are empty with fines and id3 investment
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Post by Tim on Nov 1, 2019 9:53:00 GMT
There have been a few articles in the car press about the lack of future for city cars.
I suppose when the current car weighs under 1,000kgs then slapping even a small hybrid setup doesn't make sense, especially a plug-in as the infrastructure isn't there and people have shown that they won't bother anyway while the manufacturers go to the hassle and environmental cost of actually providing the hardware.
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 1, 2019 11:18:12 GMT
I worry for the future of the not profit making brands like Alfa Romeo. The Italians might show AR some loyalty but a merger like this will be dealt with on balance sheets.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 1, 2019 11:37:53 GMT
I worry for the future of the not profit making brands like Alfa Romeo. The Italians might show AR some loyalty but a merger like this will be dealt with on balance sheets. PSA don't have any "glamour or emotional" brands so Alfa could certainly add something to the portfolio. |
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Post by racingteatray on Nov 1, 2019 11:44:02 GMT
The FT noted that the combined entity would have 15 brands to VAG's 12 and that some winnowing would be needed. It was listing the "at-risk" brands as Fiat and Chrysler.
I doubt they'd kill Fiat completely but I could see it being restricted in the future to the 500 family of cars, like an Italian MINI.
That bigger Fiats wouldn't exist I don't see as a problem - Italians seem to like French cars. You see plenty of them. My mother-in-law is on her fourth Citroen (a brand-new C1) and her sister also has a C4, and my sister-in-law has a 308SW that replaced a Megane.
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 1, 2019 12:08:31 GMT
It could be a good thing in some respects as I'm sure VAG or more likely one of the Chinese brands would happily have Alfa in its stable. Fiat have mismanaged the brand for years.
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Post by Ben on Nov 1, 2019 12:44:33 GMT
I'm trying to think of how this would work.
Lancia will finally, finally be pensioned off after what must be the longest death ever.
Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge have limited product line ups. Not sure what the plans for these brands are.
Honestly, what's in it for FCA? I can see PSA using this to crack America but there appears to be of little benefit for FCA. If Fiat/Chrysler simply repurposes current PSA/Opel products wouldn't they cannibalise each other's market share?
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Post by racingteatray on Nov 1, 2019 13:04:06 GMT
I've suspected for a while that Elkann wants to cash out of cars and diversify Exor.
But that's not to say it won't work as a combination.
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Post by johnc on Nov 1, 2019 13:08:29 GMT
Where does Ferrari fit in to all of this and in particular its involvement in the engine department for the likes of the QF?
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Post by PG on Nov 1, 2019 13:26:28 GMT
...Honestly, what's in it for FCA? I can see PSA using this to crack America but there appears to be of little benefit for FCA. If Fiat/Chrysler simply repurposes current PSA/Opel products wouldn't they cannibalise each other's market share? It's billed as a 50/50 merger, but in reality PSA are taking over FCA in all but name. This is borne out by the share price changes since the 50/50 merger was announced. FCA are up and PSA are down with an analyst quoted as saying that PSA are paying 20% over the odds for FCA as a real merger would not be 50/50. The article also said that the FCA shareholders will keep some non-core businesses that FCA own and also receive a one off dividend. So racing's comment about the Agnelli family wanting to divest more out of cars is probably correct. Something happening has probably been on the cards since Marchionne died last year. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 14:50:37 GMT
Why retain the fiat name? the 500 is basically the business as it stands. Abarth perhaps made more prominent. Chrysler, who? Much loss of facilities is on the cards and if the Itallians get more than their seen to be fair share there will blood on the boardroom floor too. A mess. What about Masserati and Alfa Romeo? Ferrari obviously safe but possibly sold off?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 1, 2019 15:24:24 GMT
I'm trying to think of how this would work. Lancia will finally, finally be pensioned off after what must be the longest death ever. Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge have limited product line ups. Not sure what the plans for these brands are. Honestly, what's in it for FCA? I can see PSA using this to crack America but there appears to be of little benefit for FCA. If Fiat/Chrysler simply repurposes current PSA/Opel products wouldn't they cannibalise each other's market share? Dodge and Jeep are very profitable. Jeep is an internationally recognised brand like Land Rover and the Dodge Ram trucks sell like hot cakes. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2019 17:42:59 GMT
The FT noted that the combined entity would have 15 brands to VAG's 12 and that some winnowing would be needed. Isn't Scuderia Ferrari sponsored by Mission Winnow? Perhaps they were telling us something... |
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Post by Ben on Nov 1, 2019 18:00:22 GMT
I'm trying to think of how this would work. Lancia will finally, finally be pensioned off after what must be the longest death ever. Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge have limited product line ups. Not sure what the plans for these brands are. Honestly, what's in it for FCA? I can see PSA using this to crack America but there appears to be of little benefit for FCA. If Fiat/Chrysler simply repurposes current PSA/Opel products wouldn't they cannibalise each other's market share? Dodge and Jeep are very profitable. Jeep is an internationally recognised brand like Land Rover and the Dodge Ram trucks sell like hot cakes. Yes, but those are the only good bits about the FCA group. And perhaps also Maserati for the premium segment. Like PG said, I don't think this will be a 50-50 merger. PSA will effectively dispose off the less useful bits of the FCA business (and there are a lot of them), and before long there'll only be Jeep, Dodge, Maserati and probably Alfa Romeo left standing. |
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Post by Sav on Nov 2, 2019 11:32:48 GMT
Already, the unions and politicians in various countries have sought for safeguards over jobs. Undeniably, however, the merger will create overlaps in R&D and manufacturing capacity in the future. With electrification on its way, it’s going to be difficult to safeguard jobs that might not be needed in the near future.
FCA is a strange business, it’s any wonder how Alfa, Maserati, Fiat and Lancia have kept afloat. Lancia literally only sells one car, sold to proud Italians. Alfa and Maserati badly need new models, but as its now been revealed, some of the cars that Alfa were planning have been canned. Marchionne pulled a masterstroke when he nabbed Dodge and Jeep, as Bob says, both brands are great money-spinners.
The Dodge Challenger might be relatively ancient in the US, and despite being the oldest muscle car on sale compared to the Mustang and Camaro, it’s now the best-selling.
Here’s hoping that Tavares can bring some common sense to FCA’s Italian brands. He planned to bring Peugeot back to the US, but what would be the point of that now, with all the staple US brands that the merger brings?
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Post by ChrisM on Nov 2, 2019 12:17:42 GMT
There is over=production in Europe and production must be cut somewhere.
I can see Fiat becoming Italian-market only, much like Vauxhall is British-market only
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Post by michael on Nov 3, 2019 16:22:15 GMT
Didn’t Chrysler have a relationship with Peugeot in the past?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 3, 2019 16:38:25 GMT
Didn’t Chrysler have a relationship with Peugeot in the past? PSA bought Chrysler’s European operations in the late 70s. |
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Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2019 13:57:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 14:32:55 GMT
Just pondering the effects on Vauxhall, any?
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Post by PG on Nov 5, 2019 15:45:45 GMT
I'm guessing there are two options for the 500 based on what this article implies - (1) If you add the C1 / 108 volumes to the 500 / Panda volume (and maybe still the Aygo too), then can that justify a small car platform now? In which case the 500 might stay the same-ish size and PSA/FCA stay in the A segment (along with Toyota maybe). (2) If you can't justify the smaller platform, the 108 and C1 die and PSA/FCa leave the A segment. The 500 / Panda then get bigger as they will be based on the 208 platform and the 500 will become a B segment car. The 208 platform could also be used for a small Alfa too. And that platform is ready to take electric versions. My money is on option 2. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 5, 2019 15:51:04 GMT
I'm guessing there are two options for the 500 based on what this article implies - (1) If you add the C1 / 108 volumes to the 500 / Panda volume (and maybe still the Aygo too), then can that justify a small car platform now? In which case the 500 might stay the same-ish size and PSA/FCA stay in the A segment (along with Toyota maybe). (2) If you can't justify the smaller platform, the 108 and C1 die and PSA/FCa leave the A segment. The 500 / Panda then get bigger as they will be based on the 208 platform and the 500 will become a B segment car. The 208 platform could also be used for a small Alfa too. And that platform is ready to take electric versions. My money is on option 2. My money would be on 2 as well. That doesn't explain MINI stating that they want to re-enter the A segment with a new model, smaller than the current 3 door model and true to the Mini name. |
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Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2019 17:27:55 GMT
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Post by Alex on Nov 8, 2019 18:50:56 GMT
I'm guessing there are two options for the 500 based on what this article implies - (1) If you add the C1 / 108 volumes to the 500 / Panda volume (and maybe still the Aygo too), then can that justify a small car platform now? In which case the 500 might stay the same-ish size and PSA/FCA stay in the A segment (along with Toyota maybe). (2) If you can't justify the smaller platform, the 108 and C1 die and PSA/FCa leave the A segment. The 500 / Panda then get bigger as they will be based on the 208 platform and the 500 will become a B segment car. The 208 platform could also be used for a small Alfa too. And that platform is ready to take electric versions. My money is on option 2. My money would be on 2 as well. That doesn't explain MINI stating that they want to re-enter the A segment with a new model, smaller than the current 3 door model and true to the Mini name. Trouble with A segment models is that they cost as much to develope, market and build as a B segment car but you can't charge as much. Plus they are normally 2nd cars that do less mileage so don't get serviced very often generating less ongoing profit for the dealer. Cars like the 500 make money because it costs the same to make as the Panda its based on but can be sold for a grand or more extra and buyers are more likely to add profit generating options. |
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Post by Alex on Nov 8, 2019 19:00:06 GMT
Just read the article. Interesting to see Fiat developing the next 500 to be electric only. This makes sense to me as so many are owned by families with another bigger car which is used for longer trips. I imagine a large percentage of 500 owners very rarely do 100 miles in a week let alone a single trip so range anxiety shouldn't be an issue. It'll come down to cost but I think the costs of putting in a battery that only has a 75 mile range is not going to be particularly prohibitive for this market. Of course the sticker is getting the consumer to believe that a 75 mile range is ok. Despite many owners only having a 5 mile commute they'll still worry they wont make it home.
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