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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2019 10:33:41 GMT
You're falling for the hype. Of course anyone who isn't a far left Corbyn supporter is a fascist in some circles. Does that make me a fascist because I just want to be clear that I'm not a Labour supporter!! I agree with you about the CCTV thing but perhaps that's just a hangover from being old enough to clearly remember the Cold War and excessive monitoring of citizens behind the Iron Curtain. Anyway CCTV is so old hat nowadays, if you want proper monitoring of people I think you just have to look at the big tech companies who have all appeared in the last decade or so and appear to be following us in everything we do with the express aim (currently) of selling us shit we don't need.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 10:36:43 GMT
Does that make me a fascist because I just want to be clear that I'm not a Labour supporter!! To some people, usually found on twitter with JC4PM somewhere in their profile, yes!
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Post by scouse on Jun 6, 2019 10:48:08 GMT
I think the Tories are a bit of a conundrum at the moment. They (or certain loud mouthed ones) are promoting the nationalist ticket which is by definition more right wing because it is not inclusive. These same people also want to remove some of the employee protection etc which is in place because of the EU. We also have massive CCTV surveillance, speed limiters and constant tracking, all of which have a right wing control freak flavour. However when you look at some of the fiscal policy such as increasing National Minimum wage, restricting pension tax relief and removing personal allowances for higher earners, removing Child Benefit for modest earners and extending the scope of NI, these are the kinds of policy championed by Gordon Brown. Personally I just think they are totally f***ed up at the moment and are just wallowing around without clear direction or leadership. EDIT: I should just add that I think Corbyn would be the worst thing to descend on this country since the plague if he ever gets elected and in between these two I think there is a massive gaping hole and an enormous opportunity for someone, or a party brave enough to speak up for common sense and reasonableness. Both of which are being pushed by the EU. What exactly have the Tories done that is not 'inclusive' (I fucking hate that word and what it seems to stand for today)?
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Post by PG on Jun 6, 2019 10:49:31 GMT
The words centre, left and right are now bandied about and mis-used and that "everyone else is far-right" has become almost a campaigning slogan. Like is a Labour voting Brexiteer "far-right"? No of course not. Probably most voters are, in reality, an amalgam of various bits of any of those positions. I think the seeds of the Brexit vote and the resulting position we are in are all followable back to that desire to pigeon hole people and parties.
For example, I don't consider the Lib-Dems as "centrist". They are a soft left hard-remain party - let's not forget that they want to join the Euro which had we been in it in 2008 would have utterly fucked our economy as opposed to just lightly fucking it. Funny how the Euro was never mentioned in their recent EU election campaign!
Similarly, like michael said, the Tories have actually moved to the "centre / soft left" on many topics - would a "right wing" party ever have allowed gay marriage for example?
It is interesting to see that in the recent parliamentary election in Denmark, the party with the most votes was a left-of-centre party (they call themselves Social Democrats) who have adopted the policy of the "far-right" in wanting to limit immigration.
Generally, I think that the voters are always ahead of the politicians in most areas. And by the time that the politicians catch up, the people have moved on again. "Populism" (or being far-right and a nazi as others would have it painted) is merely that made solid after many years of built up frustration.
If Blair had not opened the immigration floodgates; nor had the desire to be EU president and not wanted to join the Euro, and had told Brown to go do one, maybe he'd still be in power? Or if Cameron had actually managed to get the EU to reform, we'd still be in the EU and he'd still be PM?
For the one thing that I hoe that everybody could agree on is that the EU Referendum showed one thing very clearly. That the "status quo" was not an option the UK electorate were prepared to accept any more. So the TIGGERS failed as they failed to recognise the position we are in - for them the "status quo" was all they wanted. Ironic that a "change" party actually wanted anything but change. But that's politicians for you.
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Post by johnc on Jun 6, 2019 10:51:26 GMT
I'd say the CCTV, big brother thing is in fact left wing. The right, for me at least, is about personal responsibility and the individual, the left is about the state and centralised control where CCTV very much fits. Maybe that's where both ends of the circle meet and right meets left! Either way, I don't like it.
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Post by scouse on Jun 6, 2019 11:07:27 GMT
The words centre, left and right are now bandied about and mis-used and that "everyone else is far-right" has become almost a campaigning slogan. Like is a Labour voting Brexiteer "far-right"? No of course not. Probably most voters are, in reality, an amalgam of various bits of any of those positions. I think the seeds of the Brexit vote and the resulting position we are in are all followable back to that desire to pigeon hole people and parties. For example, I don't consider the Lib-Dems as "centrist". They are a soft left hard-remain party - let's not forget that they want to join the Euro which had we been in it in 2008 would have utterly fucked our economy as opposed to just lightly fucking it. Funny how the Euro was never mentioned in their recent EU election campaign! Similarly, like michael said, the Tories have actually moved to the "centre / soft left" on many topics - would a "right wing" party ever have allowed gay marriage for example? It is interesting to see that in the recent parliamentary election in Denmark, the party with the most votes was a left-of-centre party (they call themselves Social Democrats) who have adopted the policy of the "far-right" in wanting to limit immigration. Generally, I think that the voters are always ahead of the politicians in most areas. And by the time that the politicians catch up, the people have moved on again. "Populism" (or being far-right and a nazi as others would have it painted) is merely that made solid after many years of built up frustration. If Blair had not opened the immigration floodgates; nor had the desire to be EU president and not wanted to join the Euro, and had told Brown to go do one, maybe he'd still be in power? Or if Cameron had actually managed to get the EU to reform, we'd still be in the EU and he'd still be PM? For the one thing that I hoe that everybody could agree on is that the EU Referendum showed one thing very clearly. That the "status quo" was not an option the UK electorate were prepared to accept any more. So the TIGGERS failed as they failed to recognise the position we are in - for them the "status quo" was all they wanted. Ironic that a "change" party actually wanted anything but change. But that's politicians for you. To me, the EU's biggest problem is not just it's refusal to reform, it's the fact that it doesn't even want to keep the status quo. Nothing but the onward march towards total integration and single European state. Had the EU agreed to reform and call a halt towards further integration, then I'd have voted remain and, I believe, so would thousands of other leavers.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 11:12:16 GMT
It's interesting that this thread manages to capture very much why we are where we are and I think it comes down to the ability to have reasoned debate. In some ways I blame twitter mentality in that people broadcast an opinion rather than champion in at this has led to this constant demonising of those who don't hold the correct opinions. A good example is immigration. To even start to criticise this and you'll be shot down as a racist. It's the same with all aspects of life. Unless you agree a woman can have a penis then you're a transphobe, if you think the NHS could do with some reform you're accused of privatising the NHS. It's no wonder Nigel Farage is so successful as he is seen as giving a voice to those who have been ignored. The Chuckkers were doomed from the off because they wanted more of the same and had no intention of even listing to the voice of the country. They deserve their failures.
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2019 11:14:14 GMT
To me, the EU's biggest problem is not just it's refusal to reform, it's the fact that it doesn't even want to keep the status quo. Nothing but the onward march towards total integration and single European state. Had the EU agreed to reform and call a halt towards further integration, then I'd have voted remain and, I believe, so would thousands of other leavers. I'm not sure why the leaders of the EU (not the individual countries) can't see the lesson from the breakup of the Soviet Union. As soon as that opened up a little in the 1980s and granted its citizens more freedom of information it rapidly fell to pieces (with the approval of Gorbachev, etc.) I don't quite see how the EU are planning to deal with that, I feel that even if they get their wishes if you could transport yourself forward a couple of hundred years and ask the residents of places like Madrid, Rome, etc what nationality they were they'd probably reply Spanish or Italian, etc
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 6, 2019 11:49:47 GMT
I'd say the CCTV, big brother thing is in fact left wing. The right, for me at least, is about personal responsibility and the individual, the left is about the state and centralised control where CCTV very much fits. Maybe that's where both ends of the circle meet and right meets left! Either way, I don't like it. Agree with you John and likewise I don't like it.
I am right of centre in my beliefs. I'm with Thatcher on the responsibility of the individual and not mollycoddling people. But many of the major issues preoccupying the Tory party today are simply not ones I have any sympathy for. The Tory party has become too broad a church and therefore a very small tail can sometimes very easily wag the entire dog, as the ERG has managed. And the same is true of Labour and Corbyn.
The left has a second soft alternative party in the form of the LibDems. The right needs one too. That ChUK failed doesn't make that any less the case.
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Post by scouse on Jun 6, 2019 12:22:14 GMT
To me, the EU's biggest problem is not just it's refusal to reform, it's the fact that it doesn't even want to keep the status quo. Nothing but the onward march towards total integration and single European state. Had the EU agreed to reform and call a halt towards further integration, then I'd have voted remain and, I believe, so would thousands of other leavers. I'm not sure why the leaders of the EU (not the individual countries) can't see the lesson from the breakup of the Soviet Union. As soon as that opened up a little in the 1980s and granted its citizens more freedom of information it rapidly fell to pieces (with the approval of Gorbachev, etc.)I don't quite see how the EU are planning to deal with that, I feel that even if they get their wishes if you could transport yourself forward a couple of hundred years and ask the residents of places like Madrid, Rome, etc what nationality they were they'd probably reply Spanish or Italian, etc I think they can and that's why they are so determined not to reform or relax in any way. They know they could not push their agenda through their national parliaments (imagine trying to become Polish PM with the admitted aim to be in a complete union with Germany), but to do it as an MEP or member of the EU, well, it doesn't really matter what you say, as the national parliament is the once that makes the decisions isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 13:19:45 GMT
Is that not what they wanted to remove the national veto for?
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 6, 2019 17:04:21 GMT
Isn't there some old hunter's adage (or similar) about how it's never the beast that you can see that'll be the one that kills you?
All this angst about the EU subjugating the UK really puts me in mind of that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 17:07:03 GMT
Not just the UK.
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Post by Stuntman on Jun 6, 2019 19:34:53 GMT
Maybe that's where both ends of the circle meet and right meets left! Either way, I don't like it. Agree with you John and likewise I don't like it.
I am right of centre in my beliefs. I'm with Thatcher on the responsibility of the individual and not mollycoddling people. But many of the major issues preoccupying the Tory party today are simply not ones I have any sympathy for. The Tory party has become too broad a church and therefore a very small tail can sometimes very easily wag the entire dog, as the ERG has managed. And the same is true of Labour and Corbyn.
The left has a second soft alternative party in the form of the LibDems. The right needs one too. That ChUK failed doesn't make that any less the case.
My views align fairly closely with Racing's here, and my political affiliations are similar. I'm slightly right of centre and very much in favour of allowing the individual to benefit from their own hard work or even their inherited wealth, as long as they pay their sensible fair share of taxes. There has been a gap in the centre-right of British politics since June 2016 in my opinion. I don't really want to vote for the Conservatives at the moment, and indeed I didn't in the EU elections recently.
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Change UK
Jun 6, 2019 21:26:15 GMT
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 21:26:15 GMT
I am taking the same view with the Conservatives as I did with Europe. It’s needs reform from within.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 10:16:25 GMT
If the eu had demonstrate ANY desire to accept a need to reform and moderate their transformation the vote may well have gone the other way. There never has been and a few politicians are the tail wagging the dog.
As a Trekkie I see the whole planet one day being integrated as a method of improving efficiency and enabling all of us on the planet to make a decent living, not just humans either. I just cannot accept a dictatorship where efficiency is nothing but a myth and the eu expansion runs its course to destruction. Moderation and removing the boom to bust economy we live in would be good too but will not hold my breath waiting for it. I too am just to the right of centre politics wise and agree a Corbyn parliament would be the beginning of the end. Perhaps we really do need a revolution to come along and remove the old guard.
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Post by Tim on Jun 7, 2019 11:13:06 GMT
You should watch Futurama
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Post by scouse on Jun 7, 2019 14:03:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 14:13:29 GMT
Subscribers only.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 7, 2019 15:31:14 GMT
I'm not a fan of Rod Liddle. I find his writing frequently manages to be both boorish and childish.
Only he could describe Julia Hartley-Brewer as "right-ish".
That's like describing Norman Tebbit as "right-ish".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 17:35:43 GMT
To be fair, Tebbit was "Right-ish", it depends who he was right-sh of. Genghis Khan perhaps?
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