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Post by michael on Jun 4, 2019 13:19:59 GMT
Well, that went well.
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Change UK
Jun 4, 2019 14:06:26 GMT
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Post by Roadrunner on Jun 4, 2019 14:06:26 GMT
A good idea, poorly executed.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 4, 2019 14:53:22 GMT
Where did they go!?!
They should just have all joined the LibDems.
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Post by Tim on Jun 4, 2019 15:41:53 GMT
Where did they go!?! They should just have all joined the LibDems. It appears they've gone off to chat among themselves. I suspect it is a ruse to escape from Anna Soubry......
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Change UK
Jun 4, 2019 15:47:29 GMT
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Post by michael on Jun 4, 2019 15:47:29 GMT
Apparently Heidi Allen is in talk with the Lib Dem’s but the rest have returned to being independent. I’m not sure why it’s a surprise they’ve split. Brexit is but one issue, a big one but the only thing that united them. In terms of ideology they’re still socialists and tories.
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Post by johnc on Jun 5, 2019 7:13:52 GMT
I think it was a great opportunity missed. I have no idea why they split but it is basically political suicide for them all when the country needs a strong middle ground. Someone charismatic at the head of a middle ground party could do some serious damage to the political establishment but it looks as though we are back to the choice of the donkey or the dark place party. Hobson's choice!
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Post by Tim on Jun 5, 2019 8:39:20 GMT
I thought they actually had a decent chance, but only if they'd actually sorted themselves out and got a clear leader.
Surely the simple thing for them to do would've been nominate Chuuka Umunna as leader and put their weight behind him.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 8:58:25 GMT
That would require a consensus, not sure they had that from what I saw of them.
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Post by scouse on Jun 5, 2019 11:01:41 GMT
Self important, political non-entities have a tantrum, get no-where, have to go crawling to 'centre-ground' limp dims or be independent. Who'd have thought it?
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Change UK
Jun 5, 2019 11:18:35 GMT
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 5, 2019 11:18:35 GMT
Self important, political non-entities have a tantrum, get no-where, have to go crawling to 'centre-ground' limp dims or be independent. Who'd have thought it? So you think people should stay in political parties whose direction and views they no longer share or feel they can influence?
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Post by scouse on Jun 5, 2019 13:06:02 GMT
Not at all. If you truly feel your party no longer represents you then you should resign the whip. However if you have stood for office under that party’s colours, the you owe the constituents a by-election.
None of which changes the fact that he Cuk’s were nothing but a tantrum from those who failed in their own parties and were too self important to join the limp dims.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 13:12:49 GMT
I liked the idea of a party whose primary purpose was to avoid leaving the EU.
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Post by michael on Jun 5, 2019 13:37:10 GMT
I liked the idea of a party whose primary purpose was to avoid leaving the EU. Lib Dems already do that. If you read their manifesto every aspect of it is geared to how the EU effects a particular issue. They also have a common purpose and direction which the CHUKs don't have as they're made up of people from opposite sides of the left/right coin and they can't get it to work.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 5, 2019 15:38:23 GMT
Not at all. If you truly feel your party no longer represents you then you should resign the whip. However if you have stood for office under that party’s colours, the you owe the constituents a by-election. Perhaps. It hasn't historically been the case that MPs felt an obligation to resign in such circumstances. See Shaun Woodward.
It also raises an interesting question of whether people vote for their local MP on the basis that they like their MP and think they'd stand up best for their interests, or merely on the basis that the MP is the local face of their chosen central party.
Now of course there are plenty of blindly tribal Labourites and Tories, who'd elect the proverbial donkey if it was wearing the right colour of rosette. But I think that there are also plenty of people who don't vote that way.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 5, 2019 15:39:49 GMT
None of which changes the fact that he Cuk’s were nothing but a tantrum from those who failed in their own parties and were too self important to join the limp dims. Fact? Or your opinion?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 15:41:27 GMT
I got the same impression from their conduct.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 16:40:02 GMT
What did they want to Change exactly? Surely staying in the EU means no Change?
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 5, 2019 16:48:51 GMT
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Post by PG on Jun 5, 2019 21:06:07 GMT
As said in the press today - "The decision to set themselves up not as a new party for Labour supporters sick of racism, anti-Semitism and hard-Left bile but instead as a centrist alternative to the Lib Dems backfired catastrophically."
Had the labourites just launched a proper alternative to Corbyn's labour, they might well have got the traction. But the minute they allowed the remainer Conservatives in, it was all doomed to failure, never mind the naming fiasco, the leader and the real leader, their utter lack of policies apart from remain etc etc.
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2019 9:16:57 GMT
They also have a common purpose and direction which the CHUKs don't have as they're made up of people from opposite sides of the left/right coin and they can't get it to work. I don't think things are as simple as that any more. Now that Labour have headed left and the Conservatives right there's a big space in the middle - that the Lib Dems don't seem to be attracting voters to - that I would say was occupied by the Blairite Labour and Cameron Tory parties. The CUKers failed to adequately position themselves there too though.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 9:22:39 GMT
If the Lib Dems aren't attracting them then maybe it's because there isn't really a gap in the market? I'd disagree that the Conservatives are moving to the right simply for delivering the referendum result. It's still a centrist party.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 6, 2019 9:27:18 GMT
They also have a common purpose and direction which the CHUKs don't have as they're made up of people from opposite sides of the left/right coin and they can't get it to work. I don't think things are as simple as that any more. Now that Labour have headed left and the Conservatives right there's a big space in the middle - that the Lib Dems don't seem to be attracting voters to - that I would say was occupied by the Blairite Labour and Cameron Tory parties. The CUKers failed to adequately position themselves there too though. What a bunch of amateurs the LibDems are. Presented with a gaping open goal they still can't summon the wherewithal to put the ball in the net.
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2019 9:42:29 GMT
If the Lib Dems aren't attracting them then maybe it's because there isn't really a gap in the market? I'd disagree that the Conservatives are moving to the right simply for delivering the referendum result. It's still a centrist party. I think it moved to the right to cover off the threat from UKIP 2 or 3 years back when they were in their ascendancy and I'm not aware that it's moved back towards the centre since then.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 9:44:14 GMT
If the Lib Dems aren't attracting them then maybe it's because there isn't really a gap in the market? I'd disagree that the Conservatives are moving to the right simply for delivering the referendum result. It's still a centrist party. I think it moved to the right to cover off the threat from UKIP 2 or 3 years back when they were in their ascendancy and I'm not aware that it's moved back towards the centre since then. How has that manifested itself in a change of policy?
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2019 9:52:38 GMT
I'm not sure there are any particular changes in policy but I feel that the general tone has changed.
Same for Labour in the other direction but clearly to a greater extent.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 9:53:29 GMT
Par for the course.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 9:54:23 GMT
You're falling for the hype. Of course anyone who isn't a far left Corbyn supporter is a fascist in some circles.
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Post by johnc on Jun 6, 2019 9:58:38 GMT
I think the Tories are a bit of a conundrum at the moment. They (or certain loud mouthed ones) are promoting the nationalist ticket which is by definition more right wing because it is not inclusive. These same people also want to remove some of the employee protection etc which is in place because of the EU. We also have massive CCTV surveillance, speed limiters and constant tracking, all of which have a right wing control freak flavour. However when you look at some of the fiscal policy such as increasing National Minimum wage, restricting pension tax relief and removing personal allowances for higher earners, removing Child Benefit for modest earners and extending the scope of NI, these are the kinds of policy championed by Gordon Brown.
Personally I just think they are totally f***ed up at the moment and are just wallowing around without clear direction or leadership.
EDIT: I should just add that I think Corbyn would be the worst thing to descend on this country since the plague if he ever gets elected and in between these two I think there is a massive gaping hole and an enormous opportunity for someone, or a party brave enough to speak up for common sense and reasonableness.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 10:05:11 GMT
I'd say the CCTV, big brother thing is in fact left wing. The right, for me at least, is about personal responsibility and the individual, the left is about the state and centralised control where CCTV very much fits.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 6, 2019 10:14:10 GMT
I'd say the CCTV, big brother thing is in fact left wing. The right, for me at least, is about personal responsibility and the individual, the left is about the state and centralised control where CCTV very much fits. I agree - can no-one remember the Soviet Union? Add in Corbyn's idea of banning the private ownership of land so you won't even own the land your house stands on..
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