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Post by alf on Sept 13, 2024 17:23:22 GMT
This is a very un-ALF thread, and in the spirit of this forum is mostly just thinking out loud that may not be acted upon  However, one year on from getting the Quadrifoglio, I find myself looking at Giulia Veloce prices. I bought the car thinking it could replace both XFR and Boxster, but very soon I realised I was quite emotional about keeping the Boxster. Still now, I love the Giulia for a longer drive but if I'm feeling a bit flat and bored, its the Boxster that lifts me - just one hard brake into a bend, cheeky side-foot of the throttle on downshift, feeling it all move about and talk.... It's life affirming. The Giulia is more modern-car in feel than I expected, less engine dominated than the Jags were, and a wonderful thing but - in no small part due to the £5000 initial service/brakes/battery bill, then what has happened to car parts availability and insurance, I've been a bit scared to use it as much as I'd like. I don't want the near perfect ceramic-coated paint scatched in a car park, I don't want a small prang to write it off, I don't want it stolen from some car park. I also don’t want to lose my license, and driving loops round here I think there's at least a 30mph difference in perceived speed between the two cars, in terms of how quick you need to be going for it to feel quick. I'm often (transiently) in the 115-120mph area after a brief stab of throttle on a dual carriageway, it's just so bloody quick and planted. I have also been wary of the fact that - with no real mechanical justification - Quad values go down badly with mileage. And the parts prices are obscene - over £3k for the steel brakes in parts alone, and £1k for the shocks - at least one of which (ideally two or four) mine will need soon, which at 46k miles seems concerning. I've said before, the best thing about the Quadrifoglio IMHO are the Giula bits, not the Quadrifoglio bits. I have loved having an Alfa again - the looks of the thing, the driving position, the steering, just the embossed logos in the headrests give me huge pleasure. It also handles wonderfully, very planted and with that quick Alfa steering finally in a feelsome guise. The light weight is very noticeable. Modern cars don't shout about the engine configuration much, and while a 4-pot with 280bhp is a lot less than I'm used to, its also well under 1500kg and gets to 62 from rest in 5.7 secs without 4WD - not slow. And with a set of Quad wheels on it (I have some) and especially in Ti trim with the same alcantara seats and carbon interior bits, it’s barely different inside. The most I'm likely to get for mine is £32k (vs the 38 paid), which would be fine if not for the £5k spent. But that's cars. I would clear the loan I have on the Quad, and not be spending as big bills (you would think) keeping a Veloce going. I felt really guilty about that big bill, it would have been Lucy's car bought, and her insurance/tax/servicing for a whole year! It just doesn't feel proportionate at a time when I'm past 50, saving little bar pension, not 100% in my relationship status and everything feels like it costs a fortune. I should be being more sensible... So.. Am I crazy? I could keep it, assuming I stay here, I'm just not that sure I need this much performance when it costs this much - I was very lucky with the Jag running costs. I looked into finance on a new on (crazy high), I looked into a 997 as my only car (they are rubbish value compared to the Boxster and have the same "scared to fully use it" issues). I like having two cars, I just think perhaps I need at least one sensible one. Of course, I could ignore the shock (or replace one) and keep it one more year and be sure to get it to Germany, then do this in one year (before the next "big" - £2500 - service). Enough rambling, thoughts? Does anyone know a tame Veloce owner that could share rides some time?? |
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 13, 2024 18:44:47 GMT
I can’t get excited about a Joolia without a decent engine, and even the tame ones are not known for their robust and bill free nature.
If the Porsche stays, I’d be getting a Tesla model 3 for the every day stuff or if an EV doesn’t work or you still want some involvement, I’d get a hot hatch with a manual gearbox. I still remember my 2015 ST Focus very fondly as it was a brilliant every day car and a hoot to drive
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Post by alf on Sept 13, 2024 20:38:16 GMT
The daily couldn’t be manual I’m afraid… it really needs to seat 4 adults (ideally 5), have rear doors or a hatch big enough for a bike, be auto, and be refined on long journeys. Noisy cars quickly get tiring to drive, and I do still do some long journeys even if day to day I do little… The sheer “rightness” of the Giulia seats/ driving position/dials/ steering appeal a lot. To the extent I’ve even just looked at the cheapest available at all (all the petrol 4 pots can be easily chipped to >300 bop, the Veloces is not different).
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Post by Andy C on Sept 13, 2024 21:11:10 GMT
I’d look at a 340i . cracking engine but reasonable running costs .
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Post by bryan on Sept 14, 2024 3:21:57 GMT
Or even a 440i gran coupe, huge boot and F36 looks great, less so the current one
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Post by Martin on Sept 14, 2024 6:23:51 GMT
How much is too much is a question only you can answer. But in your position I would keep it for another year, be less concerned about using it and plan some trips to really enjoy it. Then see how you feel.
I don’t think a normal Giulia is the right next step, you’ll likely end up with something you like the look of but is slightly disappointing every time you drive it. You’d also be a lot less forgiving when you have to spend a chunk of money on it or it lets you down. I remember having a facelift 740d for a few days when I had the 750, it’s a car that should have been perfect for me (30k+ miles a year, majority on motorway, good range/economy, goes well etc) but not having voodoo suspension and a V8 made it feel very much second best. Because it’s so similar, you constantly compare. Better to get something different if you do change imo.
I won’t talk about it on your post too much, but for the first time I’m having a lot of second thoughts on spending based on ‘value’ or ‘how much is too much’ and saving for the future. I’m usually pretty decisive and spend what I can comfortably afford, but as that number increases it gets harder, even though I’m saving / putting into a pension a lot more than I was even 5 years ago.
Remember, you only live once!!
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 14, 2024 9:07:38 GMT
The daily couldn’t be manual I’m afraid… it really needs to seat 4 adults (ideally 5), have rear doors or a hatch big enough for a bike, be auto, and be refined on long journeys. Noisy cars quickly get tiring to drive, and I do still do some long journeys even if day to day I do little… The sheer “rightness” of the Giulia seats/ driving position/dials/ steering appeal a lot. To the extent I’ve even just looked at the cheapest available at all (all the petrol 4 pots can be easily chipped to >300 bop, the Veloces is not different).  |
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 14, 2024 9:18:52 GMT
Or just stop being a big girl’s blouse, keep the car and get your monies worth. In 5 years time it will still be worth more than £20k, so your total costs should average out to a more reasonable degree.
Just pick your moments before you really keep your foot in it and you will be fine. As Martin says, you will miss it when it’s gone, especially if you replace it with the 4 pot version.
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Post by alf on Sept 14, 2024 17:33:19 GMT
It’s not a little bit more expensive though is it ? I should have perhaps wondered why everyone who knows them (Veloces, and AHM, to name two) describes the Veloce as the one to have as a daily. AHM said to me straight that you only daily a Quad if you don’t need to ask prices on anything. Helpful.
This year was over £5k (not including the warranty work). Next January’s service will be £3k if I do the rear dampers (one is knocking badly), £5k to do them all and more like £6k if I do upgrades all round that may last. Then 2026 sees the big service which is £2500 minimum - £3500 plus if you do the water pump etc at the same time. It feels like £5k a year will be needed alongside a warranty on the big stuff like engine and gearbox… That’s 3-4k more than I’m used to and I could do useful things with that.insurance has doubled as well to £1100 though that’s more the market than car I think. Still money I’m paying (my pay not having gome up in years).
The Porsche has some costs coming up too…….. And is over £60 a month to tax these days (the Quad is less than £16 at least). If the Porsche blew its engine I’d have to sell it for parts, but to put that in context the Giulia has already cost in one years depreciation and servicing, more than the Porsche is worth…
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Post by PG on Sept 15, 2024 18:43:56 GMT
I don't really know what to advise you. You may be discovering why so many modern hi-performance / high value cars seem to change hands what I would consider to be way too often. Buy it, enjoy it, then get some huge bills (or they threaten), panic, sell it. And the next buyer repeats.
Perhaps a car that you don't want to use too much, don't want to leave in a car park, feel is almost too fast in day to day use, does not really sound like a daily driver? That sounds like your weekend and special car. Which you already have one of. On the other hand, if you get a lower powered version of the same car, or a different and cheaper car, what will you think the next time a Quad drives past you? A pang of jealousy or a happy been there done that feeling?
I don't think I used the performance of the XFR I had 95% of the time, but just tootling around in it felt special too. Is that how the Quad feels or is it a car you want to be "on it" all the time?
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 15, 2024 19:46:35 GMT
It’s not a little bit more expensive though is it ? I should have perhaps wondered why everyone who knows them (Veloces, and AHM, to name two) describes the Veloce as the one to have as a daily. AHM said to me straight that you only daily a Quad if you don’t need to ask prices on anything. Helpful. This year was over £5k (not including the warranty work). Next January’s service will be £3k if I do the rear dampers (one is knocking badly), £5k to do them all and more like £6k if I do upgrades all round that may last. Then 2026 sees the big service which is £2500 minimum - £3500 plus if you do the water pump etc at the same time. It feels like £5k a year will be needed alongside a warranty on the big stuff like engine and gearbox… That’s 3-4k more than I’m used to and I could do useful things with that.insurance has doubled as well to £1100 though that’s more the market than car I think. Still money I’m paying (my pay not having gome up in years). The Porsche has some costs coming up too…….. And is over £60 a month to tax these days (the Quad is less than £16 at least). If the Porsche blew its engine I’d have to sell it for parts, but to put that in context the Giulia has already cost in one years depreciation and servicing, more than the Porsche is worth… But…. You will get rinsed on your trade in, rinsed on the one you are buying and that’s going to depreciate and need routine maintenance and other non warranty chargeable costs. You need to do some proper adult maths and work out how much better off you will actually be vs just sitting it out with the Quad. I would suggest checking out parts and fitment prices for the intended replacement as part of the adult maths. Consider that anything other 3 years and 30k miles is going to start wearing out the odd component. Most people won’t notice this, but car people do and it’s out with the wallet. If your requirement is to avoid any spend incremental to the cost of purchase, then you need something new/nearly new……or something scruffy that you really aren’t bothered about and will just live with imperfect mechanical condition. |
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 15, 2024 21:02:48 GMT
.... but - in no small part due to the £5000 initial service/brakes/battery bill, then what has happened to car parts availability and insurance, I've been a bit scared to use it as much as I'd like.... it's just so bloody quick and planted. I have loved having an Alfa again - the looks of the thing, the driving position, the steering, just the embossed logos in the headrests give me huge pleasure. It also handles wonderfully, very planted and with that quick Alfa steering finally in a feelsome guise. The light weight is very noticeable. I was very lucky with the Jag running costs. Any used car can end up costing you money, you never know what it could be hiding. Don't let your luck with the low Jaguar running costs tempt you into changing the Alfa too soon. When you bought it, how long did you intend to keep it and how many miles did you intend to put on it? Performance cars generally need more spending on them to keep them in tip-top condition and being scared to use it could be thought of as illogical - same way as rising insurance costs - we are all feeling much pain over that. Unless you seriously need to downgrade to something in insurance group 12 or less and use Ditchfinder tyres etc, keep it and enjoy it for at least another year - and bu enjoy, I don't just mean look at for pleasure, drive it a lot ! |
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 16, 2024 10:48:28 GMT
You need to try the Veloce. Everything I've read suggests it's a nice thing. Only you will know if it feels horribly flat by comparison.
I couldn't be doing with something that was depreciating AND costing lots to run. I see it as one or the other.
Obviously I would rate a 440i but you'd want one that you can fit the MPPSK to (which needs to one from before the engine was tweaked for compliance with WLTP).
What about a C43 AMG? Audi RS3 saloon (again a pre-WLTP one (they sound better))?
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Post by alf on Sept 16, 2024 10:49:21 GMT
Hmm yes I think you guys are right basically. The "too much" here really relates to running costs, depreciation is flat since the big market-wide drops in Q4 last year and that was no fault of my car, just my timing! If I changed it for a Veloce then I'd probably not be settled until all the brakes/tyres/software updates and battery are done - and I'm already there with the current one! I put about £5k in the bank that way max, nothing like enough to make it worthwhile.
I did look into a few things over the weekend, even A35 AMG's, and indeed discovered that everything modern seems a) a bit dull to drive and b)to have the potential for ruinous costs that the manufacturer then will not help out with. Also by far the best view of the Quads (as with many things) is from behind, that's the view that makes me go weak at the knees. Normal Giulias have nothing like the impact, they look like a different car.
BMW I just can't get excited about below F80 M3 level, for whatever reason they just don't float my boat currently, probably as the 330e is so lifeless to drive and I don't like the interior quality, dash, or controls. I'd have an M3 Touring, but I expect a lot of people would, if they found £100k down the back of the sofa, otherwise its not happening.
The reason it came to a head was that we are heading into winter (where uber powerful RWD cars don't stretch their legs often, a good time to get out), I keep debating what to do about the shock(s) on my car (the correct response being spend £lots), and since turning 50 this year I've been having a bit of an existential crisis. Part of that is financial, I'm just not ever (by myself) going to live in the sort of house I thought I would, and so on. That's what having to give away most of the proceeds of half my working life will do for you. I can't fix that quick, but continuing to add rental properties to the fold (where I need to save about £40k a pop for the deposit) helps, and my cars are basically eating all those potential savings so on top of the two I have, I've no realistic plans to add more any time soon.
I think I need to be more realistic about the Porsche too. While it's been a surprise the Giulia does not match its charm for local drives (it does relaxed driving TOO well, just feels like any car, especially with cylinder deactivation which I may get it chipped to remove) I don't actually use the Porsche much. I don't track it (which was part of the original justification), and if I become single again at some point I flat won't have time for two cars, or space to keep them. It's a distraction while I have time for them.
I think I have decided to spend as little as possible on the Porsche (i.e. sort the clonking FNS suspension but not new brakes/tyres/battery) and get the Giulia how I want it, ASAP, then actually use it more. Selling the Porsche remains my rainy day fund. First road trip in the Giulia will be in less than a month as I'm visiting Lu in York for her birthday, then either heading over to Leeds to see Paul Ripley or on up to the North York moors for a blast.......
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Post by PetrolEd on Sept 16, 2024 12:02:17 GMT
Interesting, definitely don't downgrade to a diet Giulia. Its just a road to disappointment after the QV.
If you want to change and seeing as you have the Boxster there is plenty of choice. If I was in your position, I'd get into a 981 Boxster GTS and then a Passat 2.0tdi Estate. Ultimate boring daily and a brilliant sports car, a great pair for similar money to what you currently have.
Or do as above and get a Tesla Model Y for £299 fully amortized it still £400 a month and you have no other costs. Its hard for super saloons to fit into anyones lives that are doing a fair few miles PA. The costs are just daft.
Edited to add: All modern stuff is boring compared to your Boxster. Even for me coming out of my old 997, the QV just can't compete for fun. Its so detached given its an Auto that any 3 peddle car is going to beat it on the driving front. I think I just like to be more involved.
The only thing I can see me replacing the Giulia for is the new Civic Type R. I'm just loving being in an Alfa at the moment and that alone is enough currently to keep me happy. But the Alfa must have the Cloverleaf badge just for the full nostalgia.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 16, 2024 12:08:24 GMT
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Post by PetrolEd on Sept 16, 2024 12:15:48 GMT
I assume all the Tesla Y suggestions are attempts at humour. A friend has one. I have managed so far to avoid telling him I think it is a ghastly thing. It's horrible-looking inside and out, and I cannot see how it is remotely desirable. Nope, no joke, I've just ordered one for the Missus. Its phenomenal value. Yes its a total white good but then so is pretty much everything else new. Yes it looks offensive but again so is most of the other cars on the road. They actually drive very well, you should have a go. Pair it with a decent sportscar and its ticked all the boxes. Traffic is a killer in the South-east, I question why I drive around in a car averaging 18mpg myself. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 16, 2024 12:36:57 GMT
Those figures quoted for upkeep on the Alfa are truly frightening, I just couldn't justify them in any way to myself. I've always fancied an Alfa but Mrs. Sacamano, as an ex Service Manager for an Alfa dealership, would kill me. Plus, much as I like the Guilia, it always strikes me as the car that Alfa gave up on competing against BMW and just decided to copy the 3-Series and stick an Alfa front end on. Inside and out, they're very similar - maybe less so the Quattrostagioni with it's extra toppings. That said, bollocks, it's only money, you're a long time dead, so get the Tesla for cheap everyday motoring and keep the Alfa for fundays. Not sure where that leaves the Boxster though.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 16, 2024 12:37:26 GMT
I assume all the Tesla Y suggestions are attempts at humour. A friend has one. I have managed so far to avoid telling him I think it is a ghastly thing. It's horrible-looking inside and out, and I cannot see how it is remotely desirable. Nope, no joke, I've just ordered one for the Missus. Its phenomenal value. Yes its a total white good but then so is pretty much everything else new. Yes it looks offensive but again so is most of the other cars on the road. They actually drive very well, you should have a go. Pair it with a decent sportscar and its ticked all the boxes. Traffic is a killer in the South-east, I question why I drive around in a car averaging 18mpg myself. I've driven a 3 - totally uninteresting apart from yes it was quick. I can only believe that the Y is the same but taller and with a sensible boot configuration. I also simply detest the interior. I'm not the only one who hates the styling - Mrs M also thinks they are hideous. Lastly, they went through a phase of being common ubers in London, but less so recently and that's because the drivers report (anecdotally to me anyway) that the quality is atrocious. |
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Post by alf on Sept 16, 2024 12:44:27 GMT
While I think an EV as a daily, and something (probably old, noisy, and manual) for the weekend is the way many of us will end up, I find Teslas horrible as well. And I'm not rushing that process unless Taycans (or something else EV that I don't totally hate, its a list of one for now) seem really cheap and reliable. For me, most of my driving opportunities for fun are in the daily - on business trips, holidays, long journeys. I could not go too dull on the daily, and it makes sense to have more £ in the daily. Certainly not diesel estate boring FFS! I have never and will never own a diesel. I probably owned my last VW with my first also.
It's interesting how un-desirable you guys as a straw poll of car people, consider the Veloce... I do still need to try one as I do see it as a potential downgrade some time if trying to live more cheaply. I am sold on the Giulia platform/interior, I bet it handles really well and not long ago even car people seemed happy enough with the idea of a 180bhp 320d let alone having petrol and adding a hundred horses to that.
Interesting the GPF point was mentioned, as reading up on the Veloce, the ones up to early 18 that had no GPF, are supposed to put out a fair few more horses than quoted. Squadra tuning were saying that their remap of the 2.0T engine hits 320bhp easily on the early ones, the later GPF ones have the turbo working much harder as standard and it would not easily go much beyond the 320bhp they quote. The early ones would. GPF seems undesirable if it can be avoided for sure!
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Post by Martin on Sept 16, 2024 13:18:02 GMT
Let’s not spoil an interesting thread with Tesla bashing! We’re really happy with ours, Lindsay especially so…. I won’t go into why, as I’ve covered that before but the latest ones are much improved in many ways.
Anyway, I’m pleased to hear you’re keeping the Alfa and I’m sure if you do stick with it for a couple more years the total cost of ownership will be pretty reasonable, especially compared to buying a new car.
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Post by PetrolEd on Sept 16, 2024 13:30:08 GMT
So a typical thread of I want to save money but actually you don't want any of the sensible suggestions and I'll stay as I am . |
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Post by Tim on Sept 16, 2024 13:40:32 GMT
I would be reluctant to go from a Quad to a normal Giulia but that's down to the performance differential.
I think I've read that the Veloce engine is quite flat though with little need to rev beyond 5500.
What about something like a Hyundai i30N?
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Post by alf on Sept 16, 2024 14:11:12 GMT
So a typical thread of I want to save money but actually you don't want any of the sensible suggestions and I'll stay as I am . Yep - I want the fast exotic car. But cheap. Not possible, in which case I'll keep rinsing myself! I had sort of forgotten that my maintenance payments are up now (because I upped the payoff on the Giulia loan to a grand a month) so my maths wasn't amazing either. Its interesting to note though, that we may all be picky bastards. The Giulia Veloce weights the same as the lighter (saloon) 156GTA. It has 26 more bhp and >70 more lb ft torque, all lower in the rev range, and in a class leading RWD chassis not a FWD one shared with hatchbacks. And we're all sticking our noses up at it. We've probably all been spoiled :-) That the thread happened at all is a sad reflection of what's happened to living costs in the last 2/3 years.... What had already happened to property has happened to cars, energy, taxes and more! |
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Post by alf on Sept 16, 2024 14:12:21 GMT
Let’s not spoil an interesting thread with Tesla bashing! We’re really happy with ours, Lindsay especially so…. I won’t go into why, as I’ve covered that before but the latest ones are much improved in many ways. Anyway, I’m pleased to hear you’re keeping the Alfa and I’m sure if you do stick with it for a couple more years the total cost of ownership will be pretty reasonable, especially compared to buying a new car. (points at racingteatray ) - He started it sir! |
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Post by clunes on Sept 16, 2024 14:20:13 GMT
Well,
This is in many ways similar to my recent thread re: The Lexus RCF.
Due to holidays and work travel it's still sitting outside and I need to take it for a run out and to get cleaned prior to putting it up for sale (also due an MOT v.soon).
Unlike the quad it's cost me very little outside routine servicing (which is fixed cost so £415 for the recent service) with only front pads to be changed but sounds like my reasons for change were similar in that, for me, it was a smart financial choice as I own the car outright so approx £30k sat depreciating without much use was too big an opportunity to keep ignoring.
The Tesla (model 3 AWD) has proved itself to be a great companion so far. The quality is decent (but agree the design inside and out is very poor), the infotainment very good and the driving experience is, IMO, better than most of the 'family car' alternatives I've tried. The kids love it, space is good and my partner has really taken to it also - she loves the one-pedal experience etc and I can see why they are everywhere.
The fact that I save money is just a plus.
Depending on what you have tied up in the Quad I would be tempted to move it on if things were similar to my experience HOWEVER - given the money you've already put in this year and everything else you've said I'd probably follow Martins advice and give it another year and see how you feel then!
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 16, 2024 17:02:11 GMT
Let’s not spoil an interesting thread with Tesla bashing! We’re really happy with ours, Lindsay especially so…. I won’t go into why, as I’ve covered that before but the latest ones are much improved in many ways. Anyway, I’m pleased to hear you’re keeping the Alfa and I’m sure if you do stick with it for a couple more years the total cost of ownership will be pretty reasonable, especially compared to buying a new car. (points at racingteatray ) - He started it sir! I am, I'm afraid, unrepentant! Delighted you like yours. We're not fans. I could probably live with the duck-billed egg exterior but I really hate the dashboard. We had one of the new large Nios as an uber the other day and it was similarly dreary and spartan inside - presumably in imitation of Tesla. Apparently it was an EUR100k car but it in no way felt like one. |
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Post by alf on Sept 16, 2024 20:37:19 GMT
Oh I agree with you 100% Racing but was just passing the blame 🤣 apparently Clarkson made some comment on a recent episode that EV are white goods - that’s exactly what I said to our Tesla driving sales director when he openly laughed at my breakdown on the work group chat. At least my car isn’t a white good with all the emotional appeal of a fridge, or something like that. He shut up sharpish then…..
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Post by Alex on Sept 18, 2024 18:49:22 GMT
For a lot of people the Tesla idea makes perfect sense given how much they cost and that ordering one doesn't involve waiting 9 months for delivery like some other cars. They've been very clever with their approach to the car market and I'm not surprised how successful they've been. If you're a car enthusiast you probably dont like them but I suspect Tesla couldn't care less.
Regards that Alfa. You are at a difficult position having only just spent money on it. You need some return on investment so should probably try to enjoy it. You live in the SE where winters are mostly mild so I hardly think you'll be seeing conditions that prevent a spirited drive too soon. If you twist now you could be gambling on getting a lower powered and less enjoyable version that still ends up costing you plenty in maintainance and arguably more in depreciation given that its not as special as the QF. Or you could save lots of money and whoever buys your QF ends up getting absolutely stung for a really big bill. Given that none of us can see into the future it's hard for me to suggest which route you should take.
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Post by Stuntman on Sept 18, 2024 19:42:29 GMT
An alternative viewpoint: economise on all other areas of your life (e.g. meals out, triathlons, holidays abroad etc) so that you can comfortably afford to run the interesting, special cars as your daily and weekend choices, and withstand the occasional very large bill.
Depends what brings you the most joy. It's all about priorities. Only you can choose them.
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However, one year on from getting the Quadrifoglio, I find myself looking at Giulia Veloce prices. I bought the car thinking it could replace both XFR and Boxster, but very soon I realised I was quite emotional about keeping the Boxster. Still now, I love the Giulia for a longer drive but if I'm feeling a bit flat and bored, its the Boxster that lifts me - just one hard brake into a bend, cheeky side-foot of the throttle on downshift, feeling it all move about and talk.... It's life affirming. 
