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Post by ChrisM on Dec 8, 2022 12:43:03 GMT
There was never any chance of HS2 carrying on to Scotland - even if it was in the original proposal anyone that believed it would happen is an idiot, we're too far north to be spending that kind of money for our benefit. With all Sturgeon's push for independence, how much would she be prepared to spend for Scotland to build a high speed rail link to England, instead of it being the other way round? |
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Post by johnc on Dec 8, 2022 12:44:14 GMT
There was never any chance of HS2 carrying on to Scotland - even if it was in the original proposal anyone that believed it would happen is an idiot, we're too far north to be spending that kind of money for our benefit. to actually invest in the infrastructure we need to drive modal shift away from cars. I think there needs to be investment in infrastructure which then makes the alternative more attractive than the car - that's the only way the public will give up their cars - and the price needs to be right. We are coming down to London in March and my first thought was the train. However having looked and laughed at the price, I then booked flights on BA for 3 of us for less than the price of one of us on the train! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2022 14:57:18 GMT
Truth be told, the system cannot cope now with commuter traffic. That folk pay for unsafe travel and through the posterior at that, is just car-azy. Until we get away from working in offices or work sites, we will never be able to move people efficiently via public almost transport.
Talk about the emperors new clothes......
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Post by michael on Dec 8, 2022 15:11:05 GMT
Driverless trains would be great but I appreciate they’re a while off. They could and should be an ambition for the underground, though.
In terms of rail staff a great many could be got rid of, I was on the train last week and a hood number of the staff paid to stand around doing nothing could be relieved of duties. It won’t happen though. I assume petrol pump attendants weren’t unionised or we’d still have the downtrodden doing that.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 8, 2022 16:16:34 GMT
The automation and remote control systems available are very easily useable across the network. Instead of drivers making decisions a computer using cameras will do it. They’ll also do it better, with no fears. The U.K. market GSM-R in-cab radio was developed with an additional amber button because our cunts drivers were too scared to press the red one as first point of action.
Signalling is the key to cross-route operation and the signalling centres are not full of people pulling those big levers. Train position and relative train position is seen live at all times on all lines. Automating train behaviour is easily managed, more so when you remove any erratic human behaviour. In-cab Signalling has allowed more trains to run per hour on most sections of track as trains can run at the optimum distance apart with speeds regulated to maintain it. This is just as easy without a driver.
The other key is risk appetite. It’s really easy to put accidents, near misses and SPADs (passing red signals) down to human error and then re-iterate the learning in an email to all operating staff than accepting a risk wholly owned by the corporation that has implemented and accepted the automated system.
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Post by Tim on Dec 8, 2022 17:08:15 GMT
There was never any chance of HS2 carrying on to Scotland - even if it was in the original proposal anyone that believed it would happen is an idiot, we're too far north to be spending that kind of money for our benefit. With all Sturgeon's push for independence, how much would she be prepared to spend for Scotland to build a high speed rail link to England, instead of it being the other way round? Wrong way round IMO. Things like the broken promises for HS2 are more likely to push Scotland towards independence - not on their own but as small straws that just all add together. It would be nice to think that in another universe where HS2 was proposed the building started at the northern end and the final bits of construction were completed in London at the end of the project. Until something like that happens then Scotland and the N of England (basically anywhere north of Brum it appears) are going to continually feel disenfranchised. IMO (again) that's the real driver for independence and the dissatisfaction of areas of England that are far flung from London and the SE. |
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Post by johnc on Dec 9, 2022 8:46:18 GMT
With all Sturgeon's push for independence, how much would she be prepared to spend for Scotland to build a high speed rail link to England, instead of it being the other way round? Wrong way round IMO. Things like the broken promises for HS2 are more likely to push Scotland towards independence - not on their own but as small straws that just all add together. It would be nice to think that in another universe where HS2 was proposed the building started at the northern end and the final bits of construction were completed in London at the end of the project. Until something like that happens then Scotland and the N of England (basically anywhere north of Brum it appears) are going to continually feel disenfranchised. IMO (again) that's the real driver for independence and the dissatisfaction of areas of England that are far flung from London and the SE. The problem the country has is that those sitting in London believe the world revolves around London and don't appreciate many of the issues further north so little changes. Jobs and wealth need to move North to make a real difference and whilst cities like Leeds and Manchester do have decent wealth, they don't have the joined up transport links so that needs to change too. The problem in Scotland is that those who believe we can afford to go it alone are deluded despite some of the sentiments for wanting to break away from the distant Westminster being understandable. It's not an easy fix! |
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 9, 2022 9:50:31 GMT
Around a third of the population of the Union live in London and the counties that border it. That’s a lot of votes and largely explains the long term Tory dominance over parliament given the general demographic of that region. Of the others, Manchester, the West Midlands and Yorkshire have a case for far greater devolution than afforded them. From where I live the rest are just living in rudimentary buildings herding sheep and cattle between whatever crops you’re growing unless you’re living in some post-apocalyptic former industrial area where dirty-faced kids roam the blackened streets armed with pointy sticks and catapults. Is that right? (Ducks for cover) www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/york-does-not-belong-in-yorkshire-northerners-confirm-20221208228964 |
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 10:12:24 GMT
Around a third of the population of the Union live in London and the counties that border it. That’s a lot of votes and largely explains the long term Tory dominance over parliament given the general demographic of that region. Of the others, Manchester, the West Midlands and Yorkshire have a case for far greater devolution than afforded them. From where I live the rest are just living in rudimentary buildings herding sheep and cattle between whatever crops you’re growing unless you’re living in some post-apocalyptic former industrial area where dirty-faced kids roam the blackened streets armed with pointy sticks and catapults. Is that right? (Ducks for cover) www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/york-does-not-belong-in-yorkshire-northerners-confirm-20221208228964You're 100% correct there. One day we'll get that newfangled thing called electricity and then after that there'll be something called computers, followed by the internet (?) which will allow us - once we've been educated in languages - to post on internet (am I getting that right?) forums  Anyway 2/3 of the population don't live in London/the South East. Where are all the infrastructure projects to make their lives less shit and gloomy (but not folk from Yorkshire, they deserve ALL they get!). |
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 10:45:49 GMT
In simple terms the UK I’d entirely dependent on the economic strength of London and the south east. It does not make sense to kill the golden goose which is what happens when policy is based on feelings and not facts.
If the Scottish contingent are upset about their 26% higher spend per head perhaps they should look to how their government is pissing it up the wall before asking for more.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 11:19:23 GMT
Around a third of the population of the Union live in London and the counties that border it. That’s a lot of votes and largely explains the long term Tory dominance over parliament given the general demographic of that region. Of the others, Manchester, the West Midlands and Yorkshire have a case for far greater devolution than afforded them. From where I live the rest are just living in rudimentary buildings herding sheep and cattle between whatever crops you’re growing unless you’re living in some post-apocalyptic former industrial area where dirty-faced kids roam the blackened streets armed with pointy sticks and catapults. Is that right? (Ducks for cover) www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/york-does-not-belong-in-yorkshire-northerners-confirm-20221208228964I'll have you know we do NOT herd sheep round here, no room when you have so many Coo's.......
You can dry what they leave in the lanes and put it on a fire, very warm.....
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 12:14:52 GMT
In simple terms the UK I’d entirely dependent on the economic strength of London and the south east. It does not make sense to kill the golden goose which is what happens when policy is based on feelings and not facts. If the Scottish contingent are upset about their 26% higher spend per head perhaps they should look to how their government is pissing it up the wall before asking for more. Where's the 26% from? Anyway, I wasn't just talking about Scotland I'm not arguing about the economic strength of the SE but I don't see why there can't be more decentralisation, why the absolute focus is on the SE. The perception of many people outside the SE is that they are perceived as simply not being important and not worthy of consideration. If that were addressed in some meaningful (doesn't have to be expensive) way then the dissatisfaction would reduce. In fact I remember saying on here in 2014 that the view of a lot of people I spoke to up here about Scottish independence was that they didn't like the Westminster bubble and the apparent decision making that put London first and if it made no difference there then it didn't matter. That approach is just continuing to alienate people in other areas |
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 12:34:57 GMT
In simple terms the UK I’d entirely dependent on the economic strength of London and the south east. It does not make sense to kill the golden goose which is what happens when policy is based on feelings and not facts. If the Scottish contingent are upset about their 26% higher spend per head perhaps they should look to how their government is pissing it up the wall before asking for more. Where's the 26% from? It’s from official statistics: www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/ |
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Post by johnc on Dec 9, 2022 12:40:24 GMT
In simple terms the UK I’d entirely dependent on the economic strength of London and the south east. It does not make sense to kill the golden goose which is what happens when policy is based on feelings and not facts. If the Scottish contingent are upset about their 26% higher spend per head perhaps they should look to how their government is pissing it up the wall before asking for more. That's true partly because the UK's engineering and manufacturing base has disappeared over the past 50 years when the political emphasis and support was for financial services which were centred on London - that was not something that was agreed on/approved or voted for by the other 2/3rds of the UK who lost jobs, prospects, industries and communities. Scotland is easy to target with the 26% because Scotland's figures are recorded separately. However you have to remember that the population of 6m is spread over a far larger area than London and surrounding counties where 20+m people live. The geography alone pushes up the cost per head because of the distances involved, the more severe weather and the fact that there needs to be provision of services in far more places which cannot benefit from the economies of scale. Different counties in England will be the same where it might cost more per head in Cumbria than it does in Sussex but those figures are more difficult to obtain and less likely to make good headline reading. I agree there is plenty of waste by the Scottish Government, most of which is dictated by the SNP's need to ensure that their voting base is kept sweet and to create politically positive headlines but that has nothing to do with infrastructure projects and connectivity throughout the UK which never seem to get much further north than Birmingham. Glasgow, due to its engineering past, had one of the first underground systems in Europe but it remains virtually unchanged since Victorian times with no extensions despite the fact they are badly needed. London on the other hand has had nothing but extensions - they were needed too but London got them. The M8 between Glasgow and Edinburgh is only 2 lanes and is no more than a car park at busy times. Even when it was built in the 1960's, it should have been 3 lanes and now that the Scottish Govt have responsibility for roads there is no chance it will ever be 3 lanes especially when the Greens are involved in policy making. Politics isn't just about being fair, it is about being seen to be fair too. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 12:45:46 GMT
Around a third of the population of the Union live in London and the counties that border it. That’s a lot of votes and largely explains the long term Tory dominance over parliament given the general demographic of that region. Of the others, Manchester, the West Midlands and Yorkshire have a case for far greater devolution than afforded them. From where I live the rest are just living in rudimentary buildings herding sheep and cattle between whatever crops you’re growing unless you’re living in some post-apocalyptic former industrial area where dirty-faced kids roam the blackened streets armed with pointy sticks and catapults. Is that right? (Ducks for cover) www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/york-does-not-belong-in-yorkshire-northerners-confirm-20221208228964I'll have you know we do NOT herd sheep round here, no room when you have so many Coo's.......
You can dry what they leave in the lanes and put it on a fire, very warm.....
The basics are that the Phish and co could not then use the southern naighbours as pi55ing posts if they did that. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 9, 2022 12:50:15 GMT
For over 30 years they have been talking about dualling the A1 north of Morpeth and once again the decision has been delayed. It's as essential now as it was 40 years ago. Scotland might think it gets the shitty end of the stick for infrastructure spend but they're positively rolling in it compared to the NE.
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 12:50:19 GMT
What you’re describing is what has been referred to as the treasury orthodoxy whereby money is spent where it will benefit most - that is get most bang for its buck. Liz Truss wanted to reverse that and look how that went.
Scotland gets higher funding, how much more does it want? In terms of high speed to Scotland is that the best use of money, especially given the sparse population you mention, or is the more realistic approach to recognise air travel is the more economically viable option and make sure airports are funded?
The arguments go back to whether policy should be made on facts or feelings. I think people are better off on facts.
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Post by johnc on Dec 9, 2022 12:52:23 GMT
and people act on feelings!
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 12:57:03 GMT
and people act on feelings! With leadership you act on facts. The grievance politics of your government distorts those facts to influence feelings. |
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 12:58:16 GMT
For over 30 years they have been talking about dualling the A1 north of Morpeth and once again the decision has been delayed. It's as essential now as it was 40 years ago. Scotland might think it gets the shitty end of the stick for infrastructure spend but they're positively rolling in it compared to the NE. Which illustrates my point perfectly. Anyway, having just been on a brief Teams call why does the economic strength of the UK have to be continue to be so focused on the SE of England. They're not manufacturing much down there are they, financial services, etc can now be done from anywhere. Do that and there'll be less need to rip up the countryside for 3 lane motorways or expensive trains to cover a short distance, etc. |
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 13:02:39 GMT
What you’re describing is what has been referred to as the treasury orthodoxy whereby money is spent where it will benefit most - that is get most bang for its buck. Liz Truss wanted to reverse that and look how that went. Scotland gets higher funding, how much more does it want? In terms of high speed to Scotland is that the best use of money, especially given the sparse population you mention, or is the more realistic approach to recognise air travel is the more economically viable option and make sure airports are funded? The arguments go back to whether policy should be made on facts or feelings. I think people are better off on facts. It's a reasonable point but do you think that all of the people who live in London actually really want to stay there - at least to start with - rather than other bits of the country? I know it'll never happen, not least because its unrealistic, but if a huge chunk of the employment could be airlifted out of London and dropped in chunks in smaller places further away do you think nobody would go to fill those jobs? The biggest problem with spending money where it'll benefit most is that the population is already located in certain places, e.g. London so it becomes a closed circle. |
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 13:03:34 GMT
Christ, we'll have Elon Musk in this thread in a minute because we've gone off-topic and aren't talking about HIM  |
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 13:04:38 GMT
I can’t speak for people in London as I’m not one of them. What I don’t think is a good idea is breaking something up and hoping it’ll be equal to the sum of its parts in a distributed state. London is a success we need to replicate not destroy.
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Post by johnc on Dec 9, 2022 13:07:17 GMT
I wouldn't want HS2 to spread everywhere and to be honest I don't think it is entirely necessary. However the West Coast Main Line is in a relatively poor state of repair which leads to delays and cancellations. It's a shit service so people don't use it. Because they don't use it, it doesn't get the investment and round and round you go.
Bob is right about the A1 and I have spent many an unhappy hour inching forward going nowhere fast.
As for the Treasury Orthodoxy it has already been shown that the only projects which will get approved are those in the SE because the formula has been twisted to make it that way.
Facts! Please bear with me on this: If I asked your wife if she knew you had slept with another woman what reaction do you think you would get and how much outrage would you show towards me for daring to ask such a question? I know nothing about your past Michael but I would bet that your wife is not the only woman you have ever slept with, so my statement is factually correct but the inference taking from that statement of fact is totally incorrect. I rest my case: people act of feelings.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 9, 2022 13:47:56 GMT
I think the point being made is that yes, people act on feelings but we need a government that acts on facts to temper that. When politicians start playing on and acting on feelings we end up with tosh, like Brexit and the aforementioned unaffordable argument for Scottish independence. The same can be said for the argument about not voting to annihilate the manufacturing and mining industries in the U.K. - it was all not affordable the way it was so action based on that fact had to be taken as opposed to the argument of “this is a [insert heavy industry here] town and always will be a [insert same heavy industry here] town. My grandfather was a [insert heavy engineering operative role here] and my sons should have the chance to be a [insert same heavy engineering operative role here].”
As is currently happening to Royal Mail workers and their reticence to have a change in employment terms that puts their employer on level terms with the countless other organisations that can deliver stuff (without having their postmasters jailed for a system failure they instigated themselves….) the labour movement has to take a chunk of the blame. Our society also is at fault as there is always a very demarcated “them” and “us” and any attempts at a works council is toothless and generally ends in the workers feeling like they are no part of the management plan at all. As I mentioned in another thread, EDF’s involvement in Sizewell C was halted by their union in France that didn’t want the financial risk to their employer. Not a hope of that in the U.K. ever.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 14:05:07 GMT
I wouldn't want HS2 to spread everywhere and to be honest I don't think it is entirely necessary. However the West Coast Main Line is in a relatively poor state of repair which leads to delays and cancellations. It's a shit service so people don't use it. Because they don't use it, it doesn't get the investment and round and round you go. Bob is right about the A1 and I have spent many an unhappy hour inching forward going nowhere fast. As for the Treasury Orthodoxy it has already been shown that the only projects which will get approved are those in the SE because the formula has been twisted to make it that way. Facts! Please bear with me on this: If I asked your wife if she knew you had slept with another woman what reaction do you think you would get and how much outrage would you show towards me for daring to ask such a question? I know nothing about your past Michael but I would bet that your wife is not the only woman you have ever slept with, so my statement is factually correct but the inference taking from that statement of fact is totally incorrect. I rest my case: people act of feelings. This seems a bit out of order, even as it is not aimed at myself. Do we know or not, if our significant other has been or is sleeping with someone else? I should hope so, very few get to marriage or even a long term relationship with others without the physical element being present. |
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Post by michael on Dec 9, 2022 14:51:13 GMT
Offence is taken not given and I haven’t taken any offence, though thanks for the concern, Mike. More to the point I don’t think John would dream of causing offence.
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2022 16:01:43 GMT
It's a great idea to replicate the success London has had but that's simply not going to happen.
It appears to me that the majority of, for example, infrastructure spend goes to the SE.
So, 160 years after the first underground line in London When is Manchester going to get a tube line?
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Post by johnc on Dec 9, 2022 16:27:12 GMT
Offence is taken not given and I haven’t taken any offence, though thanks for the concern, Mike. More to the point I don’t think John would dream of causing offence. Absolutely none intended Michael: that is not my way. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2022 16:35:09 GMT
Just pointing out that it was a bit out of order, none of us is perfect but thinking a bit deeper (Me too) would see fewer arguments start. No eunochs in the farm is all.
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