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Post by Tim on Sept 28, 2022 12:16:38 GMT
Personal taxation aside, a clear consideration for individuals, how does the Scottish contingent feel about having your currency and economy tanked by a London-centric government? Again. I think this issue is at the heart of the Scottish Independence position but it applies everywhere else that isn't the South East too. Speaking to friends in the South West and North of England they're all fed up of the focus on the SE (and have been for years). All the talk of levelling up has been just that, talk. Are there any large - i.e. £tens of billions - infrastructure projects taking place in the North Midlands for example?
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Post by Eff One on Sept 28, 2022 17:38:23 GMT
Ok this isn't funny any more. The hedge fund Tory donors who've been shorting the pound will have topped up their billions by now, are there any donors who AREN'T these types that might get a say now? That's the first explanation I've come across that makes any sense. The notion of borrowing extra billions and then handing it to those that need it least in the hope that they'll spend it is just about the most indefensible crock of shit that I've ever heard.
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Post by Alex on Sept 28, 2022 22:44:36 GMT
On a positive note they may have just sorted the issue of lack of supply in the housing market. Just think how many extra home will be hitting the when all those who can no longer afford their mortgage are forced to sell!
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Post by bryan on Sept 29, 2022 6:00:34 GMT
That 10yr fix at 2.25% I took in July is looking a pretty good deal now! Even if it did cost me £3k in early termination costs
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Post by Tim on Sept 29, 2022 8:09:29 GMT
The FTSE 250 is down another 2.5% at the moment. As I work in a small financial services firm that's on the 5th floor of an office block I feel as if I should go in to lock all the windows and remove the window keys..........
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Post by johnc on Sept 29, 2022 9:30:32 GMT
I am really hoping that this is a short term blip and that we might get some normality back in to the system once the initial shock is over. The fear of rising interest rates is the big issue here and it has already caused a huge fall in the value of bonds (on the advice of my IFA I have about 15% of my pension in bonds and the value has taken a kicking).
Surely Kwasi, Liz and the B of E should be having a sit down to discuss what needs to happen here. No doubt Jacob R-M and his friends will be doing all they can to prevent the 45% tax band being re-instated. From a Political perspective it's hard to imagine many more stupid moves than removing this rate in the first place. The money would have been better spent on increasing the personal allowance to, say £14,000.
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Post by michael on Sept 29, 2022 9:38:51 GMT
The money would have been better spent on increasing the personal allowance to, say £14,000. I understand why they’d want rid of the 45p rate but politically it’s idiocy. I don’t agree on raising the personal allowance further, I think it’d be better to have targeted the benefits taper to encourage more people into work. I too hope it’s a short term but the markets need confidence and we’ve got Liz Truss.
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Post by Stuntman on Sept 29, 2022 10:10:46 GMT
The slide in equity values is disconcerting at the moment. I have a bit of cash waiting on the sidelines but I don't want to catch a falling knife.
However, I will be continuing to invest in the FTSE 250 - I have been drip feeding money into it on a monthly basis for about 9 months. Obviously the value of my holdings today are a lot less than what I paid (to the tune of about 20%).
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Post by johnc on Sept 29, 2022 11:49:36 GMT
The money would have been better spent on increasing the personal allowance to, say £14,000. I understand why they’d want rid of the 45p rate but politically it’s idiocy. I don’t agree on raising the personal allowance further, I think it’d be better to have targeted the benefits taper to encourage more people into work. I too hope it’s a short term but the markets need confidence and we’ve got Liz Truss. I totally agree that the taper needs to be much longer and smoother but no party has ever seemed interested in doing something that is otherwise common sense: they consider it quite reasonable that someone should come off benefits and take up full time work to be £30 a week better off - as the real life case told me, it's simply not worth going to work for £30 extra when she has to pay for transport, some new clothes and someone to pick up her children from school. She might do it for £75/£100 a week extra though. The current system is broken!
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Post by Tim on Sept 29, 2022 12:36:03 GMT
Don't forget though that the majority of people on benefits are actually either working or are retired.
Anyway, the 250 hasn't dropped any further since earlier on. Maybe Truss' words were repeated often enough this morning that they've brought some stability?
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Post by PG on Sept 29, 2022 13:24:23 GMT
It seesm to me that Truss and Kwarsi may be mad or genius. It's too early to tell. Market sentiment and reaction to the budget seems to verge on the political rather than the fiscal. Economic orthodoxy does not like to be challenged. When Rishi and Boris raised NI and announced a planned CT increase, sentiment was not exactly gushing either. Increasing taxes into a potential recession was widely criticised, by some of the same people now criticising what the min-budget announced. And of course the same people who now cry from the rooftops (like the IMF) all warned about inflation didn't they? Oh, no hang on, it was just transitory, wasn't it....
The underlying issue is really one of cheap money carrying on for far too long and how central banks finally - after years of low rates post the 2008 crash - try to get rates back up to normal. Which was put on hold by the 2 year hiatus - and money hosing - of Covid. Cheap money caused asset inflation from 2008 to 2020 and the helicopter money of Covid - giving money directly to people - and supply chain disclocation has now added direct retail inflation on top. US base rates are 1% higher than the UK. There's your weak £ in a nutshell. By not raising rates quick enough, the BoE has brought much of this issue on. They're independent so how can that be the government's fault? Taking the general economic view and comment, I think people like the IMF are ignoring the elephant in the room. The big one with "so what TF do we do now?" written on it. If public debt is too high and a recession is coming, then there are several options. Spending cuts. Taxes. Borrow more. Get growth. Do nothing. Nobody will stomach huge spending cuts. Nobody will stomach huge tax rises. So that leaves borrowing and growing the economy. Or doing nothing.
General economic orthodoxy is in the do-nothing camp - allowing what they euphemistically call "demand destruction" to solve the issue over time. Truss is going for growth. They hate her for it.
She may succeed, she may fail. But would all those people who now think a labour government is the "sensible option" tell me that they would actually do different? Well they'd tax "the rich", tax companies higher (windfall taxes) - both politically easy solutions that have fuck all real effect - and when that proved insufficient do what Brown did and tax everyone, especially the middle classes.
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Post by Tim on Sept 29, 2022 14:19:55 GMT
You're right in general - it's a difficult situation to find a way out of no matter who's at the ehlm but I feel this has been made significantly worse by the approach taken in not, for example, allowing any sort of analysis to be released. In relation to windfall taxes, well, there's a different case to be made there isn't there? I read an analysis that said that at current prices over the next 2 (I think) years energy suppliers will make £170 billion of excess profits, i.e. on top of profits they were already making. Given a chunk of our power is generated by wind and sun - the prices of which are unlikely to have increased - and some by nuclear then these seem to be a good target for a true windfall - if that's indeed the route to be taken. Applying yet more taxes to the oil producers is too easy - it can be hidden behind the green agenda while conveniently ignoring that the likes of Shell & BP are doing a huge amount of R&D around renewables and electric - in other words the future of power generation, distribution and usage. The removal of the 45% rate of tax seems nonsensical. There are a lot of people in that band that are complaining about it. Similarly the removal of the bankers bonus cap is a massive PR mistake - even though it will barely make a speck of difference to the tax take. It just comes across as a massive 'fuck you' to the majority of people who are stressing about everyday costs rising. Anyway, I'm off to look at jobs that are in a more secure industry, whatever that might actually be
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Post by Tim on Sept 29, 2022 14:39:11 GMT
I have a theory - said as a joke but a couple of sensible friends (well, I thought they were sensible) took it seriously) - that Truss & Kwarteng are playthings of a group of senior Tories that realise there is absolutely no way they're going to win the next election, primarlly courtesy of Boris' antics since Christmas. OAdded to which the current economic climate is really spectacularly unhelpful. So this fiscal event, shrouded in mystery as it is, is a deliberate ploy to ensure they have a >:(100% chance of not getting elected. Therefore in approx 2 weeks time they'll call a general election. Labour will win it handsomely and have a clear majority in the next parliament at which point the economic headaches will be theirs. Since the media and electorate have a very short memory this will allow the Tories to sit in opposition for most of the next 5 years and constantly ask what Labour are doing to make everyone's life better. Clearly this'll mean that Truss will only be PM for a few short months but it would certainly explain why the Tories have allowed someone so out of their depth to become PM and then surround themselves with what increasingly looks like cannon fodder. So, once the GE is lost there'll be another leadership election and the competent candidates will come out of the shadows. How's that? Anyone want to expand on the theory
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Post by johnc on Sept 29, 2022 15:28:38 GMT
I have a theory - said as a joke but a couple of sensible friends (well, I thought they were sensible) took it seriously) - that Truss & Kwarteng are playthings of a group of senior Tories that realise there is absolutely no way they're going to win the next election, primarlly courtesy of Boris' antics since Christmas. OAdded to which the current economic climate is really spectacularly unhelpful. So this fiscal event, shrouded in mystery as it is, is a deliberate ploy to ensure they have a >:(100% chance of not getting elected. Therefore in approx 2 weeks time they'll call a general election. Labour will win it handsomely and have a clear majority in the next parliament at which point the economic headaches will be theirs. Since the media and electorate have a very short memory this will allow the Tories to sit in opposition for most of the next 5 years and constantly ask what Labour are doing to make everyone's life better. Clearly this'll mean that Truss will only be PM for a few short months but it would certainly explain why the Tories have allowed someone so out of their depth to become PM and then surround themselves with what increasingly looks like cannon fodder. So, once the GE is lost there'll be another leadership election and the competent candidates will come out of the shadows. How's that? Anyone want to expand on the theory I hate to say that it wouldn't surprise me. Perhaps giving Labour a taste of their own medicine when they left a note for the Tories who came in to power to say there is no money left! I think whoever is in power for the next few years is going to have a very hard time.
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Post by Tim on Sept 29, 2022 15:36:34 GMT
Apparently the Labour guy who left the note wasn't the first to do it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 29, 2022 17:08:17 GMT
I have a theory - said as a joke but a couple of sensible friends (well, I thought they were sensible) took it seriously) - that Truss & Kwarteng are playthings of a group of senior Tories that realise there is absolutely no way they're going to win the next election, primarlly courtesy of Boris' antics since Christmas. OAdded to which the current economic climate is really spectacularly unhelpful. So this fiscal event, shrouded in mystery as it is, is a deliberate ploy to ensure they have a >:(100% chance of not getting elected. Therefore in approx 2 weeks time they'll call a general election. Labour will win it handsomely and have a clear majority in the next parliament at which point the economic headaches will be theirs. Since the media and electorate have a very short memory this will allow the Tories to sit in opposition for most of the next 5 years and constantly ask what Labour are doing to make everyone's life better. Clearly this'll mean that Truss will only be PM for a few short months but it would certainly explain why the Tories have allowed someone so out of their depth to become PM and then surround themselves with what increasingly looks like cannon fodder. So, once the GE is lost there'll be another leadership election and the competent candidates will come out of the shadows. How's that? Anyone want to expand on the theory When I put forward this theory a month ago in the Richi v Truss thread you were sceptical! 😀 The idea that the UK energy companies are going to make £170 billion in excess profits from UK operations in the next 2 years is laughable. Fantasy economics. Similarly, watching the Labour conference, it was amazing how many times over they spent that £2 billion from the reintroduction of the 45p tax band.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2022 17:59:09 GMT
^ Similar.
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Post by PG on Sept 29, 2022 18:43:16 GMT
...How's that? Anyone want to expand on the theory When I put forward this theory a month ago in the Richi v Truss thread you were sceptical! 😀 The idea that the UK energy companies are going to make £170 billion in excess profits from UK operations in the next 2 years is laughable. Fantasy economics. Similarly, watching the Labour conference, it was amazing how many times over they spent that £2 billion from the reintroduction of the 45p tax band. From memory, that $2Bn is going to double the number of doctor training places, boost nurse numbers, give all school children children free breakfast, and probably solve world hunger too with what's left over. And that was just this week. Before the GE it'll probably be spent on several other things too. And then Labour accuse the Tories of fantasy economics. Well, it takes one to know one.
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Post by Alex on Sept 30, 2022 6:07:56 GMT
I reckon that sometime before the next General Election there will be another Tory leadership contest and guess who will be running for leader. Boris is back!
That's not as daft a theory as it sounds either given that his hero was Churchill who was ousted as leader before coming back to take the party back into power. He could well view it has his Churchill moment.
My other theory is similar to others above in that the Tories know full damn well that they are doomed to lose the next GE to Labour and so this big tax giveaway was a way to make their rich mates even richer in order to encourage either more party funding or to make sure there are plenty of friendly faces to offer cushy jobs to those senior MPs who will be losing their seats.
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Post by Tim on Sept 30, 2022 7:58:05 GMT
I have a theory - said as a joke but a couple of sensible friends (well, I thought they were sensible) took it seriously) - that Truss & Kwarteng are playthings of a group of senior Tories that realise there is absolutely no way they're going to win the next election, primarlly courtesy of Boris' antics since Christmas. OAdded to which the current economic climate is really spectacularly unhelpful. So this fiscal event, shrouded in mystery as it is, is a deliberate ploy to ensure they have a >:(100% chance of not getting elected. Therefore in approx 2 weeks time they'll call a general election. Labour will win it handsomely and have a clear majority in the next parliament at which point the economic headaches will be theirs. Since the media and electorate have a very short memory this will allow the Tories to sit in opposition for most of the next 5 years and constantly ask what Labour are doing to make everyone's life better. Clearly this'll mean that Truss will only be PM for a few short months but it would certainly explain why the Tories have allowed someone so out of their depth to become PM and then surround themselves with what increasingly looks like cannon fodder. So, once the GE is lost there'll be another leadership election and the competent candidates will come out of the shadows. How's that? Anyone want to expand on the theory When I put forward this theory a month ago in the Richi v Truss thread you were sceptical! 😀 The idea that the UK energy companies are going to make £170 billion in excess profits from UK operations in the next 2 years is laughable. Fantasy economics. Similarly, watching the Labour conference, it was amazing how many times over they spent that £2 billion from the reintroduction of the 45p tax band. Quite agree that it seems ludicrous. I can't remember where I read it. Mind you as an example heating oil is currently several multiples in price of where it was a couple of years ago but the price of crude (yes, I know there's more to it than that) is at most double so there appears to be a lot of extra profit somewhere in the system.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 30, 2022 9:07:03 GMT
When I put forward this theory a month ago in the Richi v Truss thread you were sceptical! 😀 The idea that the UK energy companies are going to make £170 billion in excess profits from UK operations in the next 2 years is laughable. Fantasy economics. Similarly, watching the Labour conference, it was amazing how many times over they spent that £2 billion from the reintroduction of the 45p tax band. Quite agree that it seems ludicrous. I can't remember where I read it. Mind you as an example heating oil is currently several multiples in price of where it was a couple of years ago but the price of crude (yes, I know there's more to it than that) is at most double so there appears to be a lot of extra profit somewhere in the system. I think people seem to have little idea of the level of profits and costs involved in UK Continental shelf operations. The likes of Shell, BP, Exxon are not even the biggest operators in the North Sea - they've have, and continue to, divest themselves of their assets to smaller operators as the level of profit is too small. The largest operator in the North Sea is Harbour Energy, a recent merger of Chrysaor and Premier Oil, relatively small companies that can leverage their lower cost base to maximise residual value in old fields.
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Post by michael on Sept 30, 2022 10:53:00 GMT
The energy sector that’s making the money is wind because of the way their paid. I’m sure others know the details better than me, but decoupling renewables prices from gas prices could reduce electricity costs by a (i think I read) third.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 30, 2022 11:19:35 GMT
My understanding is that for off shore wind you pay a license to operate in an area, agree a price per MWh generated then go and build at risk. As the cost of hardware reduces the price per MWh based on market costs dictated by gas / coal / nuclear / older wind means newer fields are coining it in.
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Post by Tim on Sept 30, 2022 13:42:50 GMT
Plus the cost of the raw material itself never changes so if the price on the energy market takes a jump then they're laughing.
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Post by johnc on Sept 30, 2022 14:05:33 GMT
Who thought up the idea of linking the price of electricity to the price of gas? Apart from the fact that our short sighted Politicians decided to build some gas fired power stations, the two have nothing to do with each other and the costs are totally unconnected.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 30, 2022 15:15:31 GMT
Gas was chosen because it reduced CO2 emissions by 50% compared to other fossil fuels and bridged the gap while renewables and nuclear were developed, accelerating the race to net zero. It was also cheap and flexible, providing fill in capacity when the wind didn’t blow or demand suddenly ramped up.
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Post by Alex on Sept 30, 2022 20:02:44 GMT
Gas was chosen because it reduced CO2 emissions by 50% compared to other fossil fuels and bridged the gap while renewables and nuclear were developed, accelerating the race to net zero. It was also cheap and flexible, providing fill in capacity when the wind didn’t blow or demand suddenly ramped up. Don't forget also that the Russians had shit loads of it that they were willing to pump to Europe at super low prices providing an almost endless and reliable supply of cheap energy. What could possibly go wrong?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 1, 2022 9:51:52 GMT
Comes back to what I’ve always said; Merkel was an agent of the Russian State.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 10:49:50 GMT
She came from their system, being an "Oster".
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 2, 2022 20:39:50 GMT
I reckon that sometime before the next General Election there will be another Tory leadership contest and guess who will be running for leader. Boris is back! That's not as daft a theory as it sounds either given that his hero was Churchill who was ousted as leader before coming back to take the party back into power. He could well view it has his Churchill moment. My other theory is similar to others above in that the Tories know full damn well that they are doomed to lose the next GE to Labour and so this big tax giveaway was a way to make their rich mates even richer in order to encourage either more party funding or to make sure there are plenty of friendly faces to offer cushy jobs to those senior MPs who will be losing their seats. If the option is more Johnson, then suddenly I am very pro-Truss. We cannot have that awful human being near power again.
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