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Post by Alex on Dec 13, 2021 2:08:53 GMT
It's cagey because they know that they got it wrong but have been left absolutely stuck between a rock and a hard place. Whatever they do with the title now, the driver who has it knows it's been tainted because of this.
The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that they spotted an opportunity for Lewis and Max to race all the way to the line in an epic final lap and were not expecting Max to overtake immediately and bugger off up the road. It was a bungled attempt to throw caution to the wind for the sake of good telly and it saddens me that F1 feels it needed to come to that. This was already the most entertaining and enthralling F1 seasons since forever but they got greedy wanting one more big bang moment and have made a right mess of it.
I'll also add that I'm disappointed that Red Bull have been gloating about the win without acknowledging that they didn't deserve it for today's racing. Max is a deserved champion for the way he's raced this year, no one can say otherwise, but that's not how it works. This was billed as a winner takes all contest and the FIA effectively changed the result at the last minute. A bit less hubris might not have gone amiss.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 13, 2021 8:12:22 GMT
If Mercedes had pitted during the safety car they'd have lost track position and if the race had finished under the safety car, which looked likely, they'd have looked stupid. Once the race was re-started as a one lap shoot out, Max had all the advantage of new tyres and a nothing to lose situation where he could make any dive into a corner to attempt to overtake knowing that, if they both ended up crashing out, he'd be champion anyway.
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Post by Tim on Dec 13, 2021 9:10:44 GMT
This has proved that Verstappen was right about being treated differently to other drivers, it's the latest in a long line of things where he has been handed an advantage of some sort, whether that's an easy race win (yesterday) or them being lenient on his poor driving.
Actually if you think about it none of this should really be a surprise - we often wondered why Grosjean was allowed to continue racing yet the governing body that would be responsible for removing him just ignored it.
I wonder if Christian Horner's constant whining was in the mind of Masi when he was making these decisions - a bit like a nagged husband who just gives up and does what he's told?
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Post by PetrolEd on Dec 13, 2021 9:18:20 GMT
Lets be honest if the race was red flagged then the FIa would be in even hotter bother for staging a winner takes all finish. Yes it was a cluster fluck but the FIA are known for this as its hardly their first mistake this season. To be fair to Masi the guys got info overload. I still not sure why the teams are able to speak to him during these times as its got to be a safety issue and no doubt something they will change.
Looks like its racing first which I'm more then happy with as a rule going forward and to expect the unexpected. Merc employ a load of people to look at all scenarios but somethings you just can't manage. When your in the front you only have the race to lose and Red Bull everything to gain. Given everything remained the same yesterday and Lewis pitted he'd be World Champ as Max would have most likely stayed out.
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Post by alf on Dec 13, 2021 9:55:59 GMT
It's not as simple as "Merc should have pitted Lewis" - firstly you lose track position (as in the first incident), secondly it seemed a slam-dunk to pit for the second but the timing of the incident meant Lewis had passed the pit entry at exactly the wrong time. Twice in the race he lost out to the need to clear other people's incidents, but would still have won the race had it not been for the manufactured scenario at the end - where either none or all the lapped cars should have been allowed through. The most logical outcome would be to try and let them all unlap, in which case the race would have ended under a SC, which is not remotely unusual.
Then there is the fact Masi clearly said he would not allow the cars through, which potentially changed Mercedes response, then changed his mind a fair while later - that's poor in the extreme.
I dislike Max, not because he dares to go up against a British driver, but because he's disprespectful, unsporting, and dangerous. I'm no fan of Horner either - while Mercedes have seemed more like that of late, the Netflix series shows Horner to be a crying baby repeatedly and he started all this nonsense with the stewards. Max has basically made his career on lunges that allow the driver ahead to either take a big crash or let him through, and yet when someone tries to come up the inside of him he defends it like an idiot and whines if he goes off. Yes he's a great driver, yes he responded well to pressure this year, but from comments after Brazil the other drivers (not just the British ones) feel he doesn't play by the rules. This will catch him out - I predict he will have some messy seasons with accidents, and also some of the likes of Norris, Sainz and others that he will be fighting for a long time will work out that they need to take the accident with him sometimes, to stop his style from working.
The interest has been good for the sport, I like Honda and Newey and well done to them, but Lewis deserved this - he was the better driver yesterday by far. Max made a mistake in qualifying and lost the best tyres, lost off the line with a supposed advantage, made a typically messy attempt to overtake, then could not stay near Lewis on similar tyres. He made regular mistakes costing time, and then Lewis drove brilliantly on old tyres - something we have not seen from Max - to what should have been a comfortable win.
I have not always been a Lewis fan but I'm bored of the booing, the monkey chants and bananas from supposedly 1st world countries like Spain, and I respect him standing up for human rights as he does. This year he has driven as well as he ever has, he is the class of field and - unlike some - a humble, decent human being. Not a rich kid living out his daddy's dreams, which we have seen too many of in F1 in recent years.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 13, 2021 11:15:26 GMT
Can you imagine your team being 4-0 up in a match with 7 mins to go, a player goes off injured, and the ref says; “next goal wins!”. The most relatable comment on this result. Arsenal v Sheffield Utd 1999 is an example of what is expected - when Wenger had the result expunged from the record due to Kanu’s lack of knowledge of sporting etiquette. The matter is made worse because the entire Red Bull F1 team are utterly ungracious winners and always have been. |
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Post by johnc on Dec 13, 2021 11:56:57 GMT
I was surprised by Martin Brundle's comments that he thought Max's lunge down the inside on the first lap was OK. He basically drove straight at Lewis as if he was going to T bone him and he certainly didn't leave space on the outside of the corner for Lewis to remain on the track. In my opinion, that kind of driving requires the other driver to take evasive action: in itself I have no problem with that but when Max forces the other driver off the road, he can't then ask for the other driver to be penalised for leaving the track and gaining an advantage.
I do feel that Lewis was robbed but I think it is now too late to do anything about the end result. I just hope that Lewis comes back next year really fired up with a great car although Mercedes will need to watch that they don't dilute the overall results of one driver by having both their drivers winning races and having Max or A N Other creeping up to take the championship lead.
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Post by Alex on Dec 13, 2021 13:03:08 GMT
That was the mistake McLaren made in 2007. Lewis and Fernando were too busy fighting each other that they didn't notice Kimi creeping up to nick the championship by a point.
I can't help thinking that if the car is good enough George will take the role of teammate for 2022 to help Lewis seek vengeance knowing it makes him much more likely to be the no.1 driver from 2023 on.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 13, 2021 13:07:19 GMT
Apparently news is just out that Michael Masi was in charge of the Champions League Draw at lunchtime.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2021 14:00:33 GMT
I wonder what sort of "Brucie" bonus Masi got there.
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Post by Stuntman on Dec 13, 2021 22:20:07 GMT
It's cagey because they know that they got it wrong but have been left absolutely stuck between a rock and a hard place. Whatever they do with the title now, the driver who has it knows it's been tainted because of this. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that they spotted an opportunity for Lewis and Max to race all the way to the line in an epic final lap and were not expecting Max to overtake immediately and bugger off up the road. It was a bungled attempt to throw caution to the wind for the sake of good telly and it saddens me that F1 feels it needed to come to that. This was already the most entertaining and enthralling F1 seasons since forever but they got greedy wanting one more big bang moment and have made a right mess of it. I'll also add that I'm disappointed that Red Bull have been gloating about the win without acknowledging that they didn't deserve it for today's racing. Max is a deserved champion for the way he's raced this year, no one can say otherwise, but that's not how it works. This was billed as a winner takes all contest and the FIA effectively changed the result at the last minute. A bit less hubris might not have gone amiss. I can, and do, say otherwise  |
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Post by Alex on Dec 14, 2021 13:52:52 GMT
Horners been doing the rounds on the news outlets hailing Max's fantastic last gasp win at the expense of the blundering Mercedes who foolishly went by the F1 rulebook when determining their race strategy.
I still take the view that this result was caused by the race director having a massive brain fart and had the boot been on the other foot Lewis would have done exactly the same and Karen Spice would have been launching exactly the same appeals and legal action. So I've no beef with Max but a bit more humility from the Red Bull camp to recognise they were gifted the win rather than earning it wouldn't go amiss and I hope their gloating spurs Lewis into wiping the floor with them next year.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 14:16:13 GMT
So I've no beef with Max but a bit more humility from the Red Bull camp to recognise they were gifted the win rather than earning it wouldn't go amiss Never going to happen. See my earlier comment about winning gracelessly. I agree that this shouldn't reflect on the driver and in my opinion the sooner he leaves RBR the better for his image. |
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 14:46:30 GMT
Horners been doing the rounds on the news outlets hailing Max's fantastic last gasp win at the expense of the blundering Mercedes who foolishly went by the F1 rulebook when determining their race strategy. I still take the view that this result was caused by the race director having a massive brain fart and had the boot been on the other foot Lewis would have done exactly the same and Karen Spice would have been launching exactly the same appeals and legal action. So I've no beef with Max but a bit more humility from the Red Bull camp to recognise they were gifted the win rather than earning it wouldn't go amiss and I hope their gloating spurs Lewis into wiping the floor with them next year. Fantastic last gasp win and great strategy.....Ok..... Agree with BB, there won't be any humility as they are bad losers/winners and I do hope Mercedes come back even stronger next year. Ideal scenario would be for (at least) Ferrari and McLaren to be ahead of RBR as well  |
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 15:08:54 GMT
I'm very keen to see both the red and orange cars do well. Both Ferrari drivers are pretty level headed, which is amazing for the Scuderia, and I desperately want to see Lando and George battle it out in a battle of the young Brits. The biggest problem is the rule change and the presence of Newey at RBR - he will have some jiggery-pokery up his CAD-system. He's probably the only decently-mannered staffer at RBR but a terrible rule bender.
I suppose we should temper our views of Horner on the basis that winners are pretty driven individuals and no one ever won by being mr nice guy.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 14, 2021 19:08:26 GMT
Let's not forget that when Vettel's winning run with RBR came to an end partly because of rule changes, they whinged like hell and talked of leaving F1 because it wasn't fair (to them)........
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Post by Eff One on Dec 14, 2021 19:58:28 GMT
I don't like the way Red Bull go racing, and Verstappen's driving in Brazil and Jeddah was unacceptable - a combination of poor stewarding and the Verstappen 'win at any cost' attitude.
He's aggressive on track and often fairly objectionable off it. Which is no surprise. He's 24. Virtually all 24 year old males need a daily kick in the balls on principle. Seb and Lewis were unbearable at that age; like them, Max will grow up eventually.
Masi lost control of the race again in Abu Dhabi, but what I found most shocking was Toto and Horner's bullying over the radio. The FIA are already making moves to stamp on that and rightly so.
I don't agree with the notion that Sunday's events make Verstappen an undeserving champion. Both he and Lewis have performed at a stratospheric level for 22 races, and both fully deserved it. Verstappen, and Red Bull, simply played the hand they were dealt, as Lewis/Merc would have done if the situation were reversed.
The 2021 title will forever be tainted which is a great shame. The rules, and they way they were manipulated, are the main culprit. I hope that the FIA gets its house in order.
Meanwhile, 72 days and counting until pre-season testing in Barcelona...
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Post by johnc on Dec 15, 2021 7:54:59 GMT
And something even closer to be excited about: in a week's time the days start to get longer (or the nights shorter if that's your preference)
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Post by Sav on Dec 16, 2021 23:37:18 GMT
When Liberty bought F1, they made all the right noises. It has done a lot of good; getting the 2022 car rubber-stamped was a great achievement. A commitment to classic European venues was also welcome. However, money talks, and people Greg Maffei were quick to criticise races like Baku because it was Bernie’s creation, and it apparently didn’t add value. Saying it was just a cash-cow for the sport. Note how under Liberty’s tenue, Baku has not been ditched, and other countries were added this year where the same criticism could be levelled. I think Liberty were a bit naive initially, now they are quite happy to accept cheque’s venues from venues that they initially criticised, because just like CVC, Liberty expects results for the vast sum they paid. So $30 million from whatever regime wants to hold a race won’t be ignored.
I think that standing starts after restarts and red-flags are unnecessary. It might create more of a show, but its aim is to artificially bunch the cars up. As in Saudi, it just presents unnecessary danger and expense that does not seem needed. Sprint races have also been unnecessary. We need 20-odd good races on a Sunday, not more races on different days that ultimately were not that exciting, because nobody wanted to destroy their cars for Sunday. And we basically had 20-odd good races on a Sunday this year, and if the 2022 cars deliver what is expected, nobody will be demanding sprint races.
I know this sounds quite dramatic, the Saudi layout is just irresponsible. Littered with unnecessary danger at most corners, 200 mph works at Silverstone or Monza because the marshals and drivers alike can see what is coming. We didn’t need a 200 mph+ Monaco. I’m surprised it was signed off by the FIA.
People crave consistency, but it is not always a good thing. The lack of a penalty for Hamilton cutting the turn six chicane stems from the fact that the FIA place predominant responsibility on the car on the inside of a corner making the overtake. It doesn’t matter how unrealistic the driver on the outside is, it’s the precedent that has been adhered to. This is why Norris and Hamilton were penalised respectively in Austria, its why Hamilton was penalised in Brazil against Albon. I think at turn six last Sunday Hamilton should have given the place back. He had a choice to defend, but didn’t, Verstappen was always going to struggle to make the apex himself, turning from such an acute angle. At no point did Verstappen leave the track, and you can see Hamilton knew where Verstappen was all the time, that’s why he slightly jinked left under braking to make it hard for Verstappen to make the corner. Hamilton ran out of room, that is racing. I think the almost automatic predominant responsibility for the car on the inside needs to be reviewed. If the car on the outside refuses to yield and gets run off the track, isn’t that equally due to the stubbornness of the driver on the outside? Austria is a case in point.
It is tricky to know where the FIA goes from here. I think the FIA has deep-routed historical issues, from even Balestre and Mosley were running the organisation. The appeals procedure is very much stacked in the FIA’s favour, the lack of transparency over Ferrari’s engine settlement a few years ago was concerning, and they lack the awareness of when things go wrong, and what needs to happen next. The personnel structures for F1 weekends needs to change. I would have an FIA F1 Manager, who overseas the whole operation for each race. There would be a race director, who has a standalone job with no other conflicting commitments. There would also be a Technical Director, who knows what tricks the teams play to get parts approved. The teams respectively have clever engineers who are paid to push the regulations to the limits, and the FIA need to ensure that its technically-resourced well for the complexity of the sport. The FIA’s F1 operation is weak in my view. Considering 60% of the FIA’s revenue comes from F1, its their showpiece, so getting this right should be essential.
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