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Post by PG on Dec 2, 2021 14:58:20 GMT
Hydrogen is being talked about for HGVs. JCB are sure it is the way forward for plant. Now it seems that Toyota have decided that hydrogen burnt in a lightly modified ICE is a path worth exploring. I think this has to be worth serious consideration. Seems the modifications required to the engine are not as extensive as might be thought. If you can burn hydrogen viably in an ICE, why would you bother burning it in a fuel cell that is more complicated, more expensive to manufacture and still needs a battery? www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-gr-yaris-h2-hydrogen-fuelled-hot-hatchback "Hydrogen-combustion technology, Toyota says, allows cars to become zero-emission relatively affordably as it allows manufacturers to exploit "existing internal combustion engine know-how and manufacturing investment........The subtle mechanical modifications are limited to strengthening the block (as hydrogen explodes more violently than petrol), new valve seats and an upgraded injection system. Powertrain boss Thiebauld Paquet estimated that it would achieve “similar efficiencies” to its unmodified petrol counterpart, but performance details remain under wraps." It seems there is more vibration than petrol - maybe due to the more violent explosion than petrol? But it's a start. Eco-people (and many Governments) will of course hate this idea. As making motoring more expensive and forcing more people off the roads and into public transport is all part of their highly politicised green ideal. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 15:06:36 GMT
Unlikely, far too sensible and the friends of government would not make nearly as much. I know, cynical does not cover it today.
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Post by johnc on Dec 2, 2021 16:01:07 GMT
To be honest I thought that hydrogen was going to be used as a petrol/diesel replacement in exactly the way the Toyota is considering. It is only in more recent years that the fuel cell has come to the fore and I thought I must have misunderstood its use and been mistaken. I am glad I wasn't because used in this way it is the simplest solution for so many reasons.
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Post by PG on Dec 2, 2021 16:55:26 GMT
Whilst I think it needs serious consideration, having done a bit more background googling, I am not sure that the switch to hydrogen in an ICE for road (especially city) use (rather than race track) is as simple as Toyota ascribe in the article. Hydrogen has a higher combustion temperature than petrol and so the extremely hot combustion and exhaust gases cause more oxidation of nitrogen that is in the air sucked into the engine or via the exhaust after combustion. Hence there are NOx issues that have to be overcome. So whereas a fuel cell using H2 leads to water as the only byproduct, that is not the case for burning H2 in an ICE.
Not sure if that is the same for HGVs (or plant) that might burn hydrogen and maybe outside built up areas that is not such an issue?
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Post by Alex on Dec 2, 2021 18:17:31 GMT
The emissions of NOx is the stumbling block it seems and so it isn't a solution to replace ICE cars in urban areas, which means BEVs will be the answer at a local level and many commercial vehicles could go that way for last-mile use but long distance it could help larger commercial vehicles and equipment away from local areas as NOx is less of an issue, albeit still a problem to some degree. The petrol particulate filters being fitted to Euro7 ICE cars is meant to remove them though so maybe the technology will make it possible.
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 3, 2021 10:56:15 GMT
Hydrogen has a lower specific power output – when BMW experimented with hydrogen combustion in the 80s and 90s, they had to use the V12 engine to get even remotely acceptable power outputs (2005 model using the 6.0 V12 had 256 bhp).
I think the issue with Hydrogen is making/obtaining the stuff in the first place – the amount of energy needed to crack water to get the H could just be funnelled straight into a battery.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 3, 2021 11:15:16 GMT
[voice of the mad Texan in Billion Dollar Brain*]God gave us oil and we must use it as He intended. Any attempt to try to emulate or replace the oil handed down to us from Above is a sin![/voice of the mad Texan in Billion Dollar Brain]
*I assume you are all familiar with the film.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 3, 2021 13:59:49 GMT
Hydrogen has a lower specific power output – when BMW experimented with hydrogen combustion in the 80s and 90s, they had to use the V12 engine to get even remotely acceptable power outputs (2005 model using the 6.0 V12 had 256 bhp). I think the issue with Hydrogen is making/obtaining the stuff in the first place – the amount of energy needed to crack water to get the H could just be funnelled straight into a battery. There is huge amounts of "brown" hydrogen produced as a by-product of the fertiliser industry which is just looking for a use. Also, one of the issues with renewables like wind is how do you store the electricity produced when demand isn't there. They're looking at battery storage but storage as hydrogen is another good option. I think in time battery EVs will be the Betamax of the automotive world and we'll mostly be driving hydrogen powered vehicles. |
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 3, 2021 17:36:25 GMT
I think it depends on how much of an improvement solid state batteries are and how much fuel cell tech improves. I'd be very surprised if we continued with hydrogen ICE because none of the passenger car OEMs seem to be paying much attention to it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 3, 2021 19:18:13 GMT
I think it depends on how much of an improvement solid state batteries are and how much fuel cell tech improves. I'd be very surprised if we continued with hydrogen ICE because none of the passenger car OEMs seem to be paying much attention to it. Once the Porn industry adopts hydrogen power, BEVs are history. |
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Post by PG on Dec 6, 2021 15:53:08 GMT
I think it depends on how much of an improvement solid state batteries are and how much fuel cell tech improves. I'd be very surprised if we continued with hydrogen ICE because none of the passenger car OEMs seem to be paying much attention to it. I agree re it does probably all depend on how fuel cells and solid state batteries develop - in terms of both efficiency and cost. People laughed at Toyota when they were early into hybrids rather than diesel, so maybe they are keeping all options open for now. It may well be if Toyota want to keep making a cheaper city car, a hydrogen ICE plus adblue / catalyst / voodoo to deal with NOx may still be cheaper than a fuel cell or a very short range battery. |
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