|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 9:47:37 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Nov 5, 2021 9:47:37 GMT
The Mash generally has amusing but contrite shite. Today they had proper satire www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/owen-paterson-keeping-his-other-jobs-20211105213976I remember Blair won a Labour landslide, largely on the basis of change for change's sake after almost 2 decades of Conservative government but his acceleration towards power was enhanced by the anti-sleaze campaigns of the era - his policies were, after all, very Tory-based so there was no real change in the initial year or two. The current crop would do well to remember that being outside the realms of reality doesn't mean that they shouldn't heed its presence. Boris is now effectively in the position of absolute power held by Maggie in the mid-late '80s and by Blair at the turn of the century and that turns people against you from within. Tarzan resented the lack of government by consensus-proper, especially where the diktat didn't align with his own and Broon came to hate Blair for being so right wing and holding on to power where he saw there was no viable opposition. The biggest problem is that there is no front runner to assassinate Boris - Sunak will not be accepted by the vast majority of conservatives in the same way Boers won't vote for the ANC..... but he is the best candidate. Really-Smug is about as electable as a painted warlord with a necklace of human finger bones would be; Priti Evil would have less support amongst her peers than Sunak would have in the wider party; Gove is comedy figure in the public eye and Raab has fucked up whatever came his way. I currently struggle to name any other Cabinet member, a combination of having given up giving a shit about that shower and their complete anonymity within what is increasingly a one-man party. Someone in the Grauniad today suggested Boris is surrounded by Courtiers as opposed to Advisors, something he "learned" from Trump's administration, no doubt. Overall I'm not sure it was ever any different, it's just I'm now older and grumpier about the whole scenario.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 9:58:30 GMT
Post by Tim on Nov 5, 2021 9:58:30 GMT
I can add Liz Truss to your list.
I'm sure Matt Handjob thinks he has a future as PM too.
This whole debacle really leaves me wondering what clowns are running the country. I'm not saying Labour would be any better but then they're so far away from power or being viable as to exclude them anyway but the Tories under Boris give me the impression of a rudderless ship. They'll get away with their current policy - seemingly leadership by making policy and changing it if there's a big enough outcry - for a while but eventually some opposition will appear and all the floaters who voted Tory will head off back to the fence.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 10:29:02 GMT
Post by johnc on Nov 5, 2021 10:29:02 GMT
I can add Liz Truss to your list. I'm sure Matt Handjob thinks he has a future as PM too. This whole debacle really leaves me wondering what clowns are running the country. I'm not saying Labour would be any better but then they're so far away from power or being viable as to exclude them anyway but the Tories under Boris give me the impression of a rudderless ship. They'll get away with their current policy - seemingly leadership by making policy and changing it if there's a big enough outcry - for a while but eventually some opposition will appear and all the floaters who voted Tory will head off back to the fence. I agree. I was appalled that the Government thought they could change the rules to protect one of their own. Obviously the ethics of the whole thing sailed way above the head of the PM and quite a few others. Power corrupts which means that at some point (and maybe not very long) there are going to be mistakes, gaffs and directions of policy which the middle ground of voters find unacceptable. What scares me most is that there is no credible alternative: the moderates of the Tory party were all removed by Boris and the moderates of the Labour party were "disappeared" by Corbyn. Millipede really added to Labour's problems by removing the vote for the leader from the MPs and putting it in the hands of the extreme left - this on its own could make Labour unelectable. It's no wonder the SNP do well in Scotland but being the best of a bad bunch still doesn't make them right. I'd vote for the SNP in the current climate if independence wasn't on the table but the fact it is makes them a complete no go for me.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:07:01 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 5, 2021 11:07:01 GMT
I think Sunak would walk a General Election after the fiscal support he’s given everyone these last 12 months.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:17:07 GMT
Post by johnc on Nov 5, 2021 11:17:07 GMT
I think Sunak would walk a General Election after the fiscal support he’s given everyone these last 12 months. I think he is the best the Tories have by quite a long way but I don't know if he would get the support from all sections of the electorate or from some of the fossils within his own party.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:18:51 GMT
Post by Tim on Nov 5, 2021 11:18:51 GMT
Scotland's completely different. I can't name the previous 2 (?) Tory leaders up here, we had that bloke Ruth then person X, person Y and now Douglas Ross and I only remember his name because I realised I couldn't remember who he was replacing.
Labour - again I know the name of the current one, probably more because his Dad (I assume it was his dad) was a prominent figure presumably due to ethnicity as well as seemingly being a good guy.
LimpDems are about to lose their leader whose name I know because he's my local MSP and, as my mum keeps reminding me, went to the same school albeit several years before me. No idea who the options are to replace him.
LimpDems in Westminster - where the hell are they in all of this?
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:24:08 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Nov 5, 2021 11:24:08 GMT
I think Sunak would walk a General Election after the fiscal support he’s given everyone these last 12 months. He should but unfortunately to many he's still a westernised import. He's certainly the only outwardly rational member of the gang - like Robert Duvall in The Godfather
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:27:07 GMT
Post by Tim on Nov 5, 2021 11:27:07 GMT
I think Sunak would struggle to get enough support from the party. Perhaps they should try to find someone with a relatively normal background as well - having a few £000 million in a blind trust run by his wife probably won't endear him to chunks of the electorate either. Sunak doesn't appear to have the charisma that Boris had that allows him to get away with a lot.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 11:55:11 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2021 11:55:11 GMT
The Mash generally has amusing but contrite shite. Today they had proper satire www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/owen-paterson-keeping-his-other-jobs-20211105213976I remember Blair won a Labour landslide, largely on the basis of change for change's sake after almost 2 decades of Conservative government but his acceleration towards power was enhanced by the anti-sleaze campaigns of the era - his policies were, after all, very Tory-based so there was no real change in the initial year or two. The current crop would do well to remember that being outside the realms of reality doesn't mean that they shouldn't heed its presence. Boris is now effectively in the position of absolute power held by Maggie in the mid-late '80s and by Blair at the turn of the century and that turns people against you from within. Tarzan resented the lack of government by consensus-proper, especially where the diktat didn't align with his own and Broon came to hate Blair for being so right wing and holding on to power where he saw there was no viable opposition. The biggest problem is that there is no front runner to assassinate Boris - Sunak will not be accepted by the vast majority of conservatives in the same way Boers won't vote for the ANC..... but he is the best candidate. Really-Smug is about as electable as a painted warlord with a necklace of human finger bones would be; Priti Evil would have less support amongst her peers than Sunak would have in the wider party; Gove is comedy figure in the public eye and Raab has fucked up whatever came his way. I currently struggle to name any other Cabinet member, a combination of having given up giving a shit about that shower and their complete anonymity within what is increasingly a one-man party. Someone in the Grauniad today suggested Boris is surrounded by Courtiers as opposed to Advisors, something he "learned" from Trump's administration, no doubt. Overall I'm not sure it was ever any different, it's just I'm now older and grumpier about the whole scenario. History does repeat itself, but I think Johnson cannot be compared to Thatcher or Blair on any grounds other than grip on party and perhaps sheer personal ambition. I do think Boris instinctively wants to help improve the country but I think he lacks the focus required. Thatcher famously worked through the night on her red boxes. Johnson equally famously does not. And surrounding himself with a covey of second- and third-rate rightwing scarecrows doesn't speak to core confidence or auger well for delivery. It goes without saying that the Paterson thing is a disgrace but the bigger worry is that the government lacked the political antenna to see that this was an elephant trap of epic proportions. I don't doubt they will wiggle their way through and out the other end again, but sooner or later surely some of the mud is going to start sticking even to the usually impressively teflon-coated Johnson.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 12:27:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 12:27:43 GMT
I think Sunak would struggle to get enough support from the party. Why do you think that ?
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 12:36:08 GMT
Tim likes this
Post by Blarno on Nov 5, 2021 12:36:08 GMT
I think Sunak would walk a General Election after the fiscal support he’s given everyone these last 12 months. I think he is the best the Tories have by quite a long way but I don't know if he would get the support from all sections of the electorate or from some of the fossils within his own party.
Isn't that like being the best sexually transmitted infection?
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:19:20 GMT
Post by Tim on Nov 5, 2021 13:19:20 GMT
I think Sunak would struggle to get enough support from the party. Why do you think that ? I probably didn't word it correctly when I said 'the party' but my impression is that there would be some reluctance from some of the less enlightened members of the wider party (the grassroots?) to someone from an ethnic background. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong and I hope I am.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:27:21 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 13:27:21 GMT
I probably didn't word it correctly when I said 'the party' but my impression is that there would be some reluctance from some of the less enlightened members of the wider party (the grassroots?) to someone from an ethnic background. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong and I hope I am. Of course you’re wrong. How else do you think he became an MP?
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:28:02 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Nov 5, 2021 13:28:02 GMT
Nope, you're not wrong and that what I alluded to with my Boer - ANC comparison. Although it's over 20 years ago my dad took his Hindu then girlfriend to church for a Sunday service. They may as well have walked in there naked carrying a banner proclaiming the benefits of satanism.....
Winning a seat with a majority isn't the same deal as being elected by the members as leader.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:36:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 13:36:38 GMT
I think I would vote for him tbh, should he become leader. He has come across well in his tenure at treasury and I don't see any worms in the cupboard as yet.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:43:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 13:43:18 GMT
Nope, you're not wrong and that what I alluded to with my Boer - ANC comparison. Although it's over 20 years ago my dad took his Hindu then girlfriend to church for a Sunday service. They may as well have walked in there naked carrying a banner proclaiming the benefits of satanism..... Winning a seat with a majority isn't the same deal as being elected by the members as leader. The selection process to become the candidate requires a poll of membership who, in Richmond N. Yorks are overwhelmingly white and old. Rishi won that by a landslide based on ability. He’s also increased his majority. It’s popular to present conservatives as racist but the evidence doesn’t support the claim. It’s even the only party to have had an ethnic minority PM.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 13:59:32 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Nov 5, 2021 13:59:32 GMT
I don’t disagree but I still feel the “white majority being led by a sub-continental colonial” would grate too much and God (Lakshmi?) forbid he makes a single error if he were to become leader and / or PM. I trust that I am wrong.
I especially agree about the face of the Conservatives as nasty racists being a falsehood of epic proportions when their main opposition has predominantly been led by white men, are funded by a union background that has seen white men protecting jobs for white men and were particularly unkind when one leader dared to be Jewish.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 14:33:10 GMT
Post by garry on Nov 5, 2021 14:33:10 GMT
Can’t say I agree with Sunak not getting support. The conservatives prioritise winning above anything else. If they believe Sunak can win, they’ll support him.
His bigger problem will be if/when then general public realise he can’t walk on water. If something like stagflation hits the economy (Which it could, with rising inflation and flat salaries )he’s toast.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 14:45:32 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 14:45:32 GMT
According to relevant polls Liz Truss and others are way ahead of Rishi in terms of cabinet preference.
On the sleaze matter I’ve got an awful lot of sympathy for Paterson given what he has been through but he should have resigned ages ago. The standards committee hasn’t been fit for purpose for as long as Kathryn Stone was commissioner and was in need of reform. The failure to recognise that they were going about reform in such an incendiary way points to serious structural failures in the leadership.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 14:47:55 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2021 14:47:55 GMT
Sunak strikes me as far more of a conservative (both big C and little c) than Johnson.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 14:53:40 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2021 14:53:40 GMT
According to relevant polls Liz Truss and others are way ahead of Rishi in terms of cabinet preference. On the sleaze matter I’ve got an awful lot of sympathy for Paterson given what he has been through but he should have resigned ages ago. The standards committee hasn’t been fit for purpose for as long as Kathryn Stone was commissioner and was in need of reform. The failure to recognise that they were going about reform in such an incendiary way points to serious structural failures in the leadership. I have sympathy for anyone whose partner commits suicide but at the same time I fully fail to understand why his wife's suicide should in any way influence the punishment meted out to him for wrongs committed prior to that (and for which he remains utterly unrepentant - apparently much to Johnsonian displeasure). Just as all the discussion of him being a "nice bloke" is completely irrelevant. Should less nice people be punished more harshly than nice people for the same crimes? I think not. Personally I strongly suspect he cynically exploited it to get himself off the hook.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 15:02:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 15:02:01 GMT
According to relevant polls Liz Truss and others are way ahead of Rishi in terms of cabinet preference. On the sleaze matter I’ve got an awful lot of sympathy for Paterson given what he has been through but he should have resigned ages ago. The standards committee hasn’t been fit for purpose for as long as Kathryn Stone was commissioner and was in need of reform. The failure to recognise that they were going about reform in such an incendiary way points to serious structural failures in the leadership. I have sympathy for anyone whose partner commits suicide but at the same time I fully fail to understand why his wife's suicide should in any way influence the punishment meted out to him for wrongs committed prior to that (and for which he remains utterly unrepentant - apparently much to Johnsonian displeasure). Just as all the discussion of him being a "nice bloke" is completely irrelevant. Should less nice people be punished more harshly than nice people for the same crimes? I think not. Personally I strongly suspect he cynically exploited it to get himself off the hook. Because he blames the standards commission for the undue stress it placed on his wife and holds this process, which he has described as being biased, with evidence, as contributing to her death? I can see why his behaviour would be irrational from this position and I have sympathy for him, as I said, given what he has been through.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 15:07:52 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2021 15:07:52 GMT
Or he could blame himself for his misconduct. The man is clearly guilty, regardless of any procedural niceties. It's not a short rap sheet.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 15:19:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Nov 5, 2021 15:19:12 GMT
He may be guilty but his argument is he wasn’t tried in a fair court.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 16:06:44 GMT
Tim likes this
Post by PG on Nov 5, 2021 16:06:44 GMT
I think the issue goes to the heart of the same issue as the expenses scandal. The spirit of a rule may well have not so much been broken as thrown into the abyss. And that if any MP thinks that people give them an awful lot of money to do nothing for them, they are even more stupid than the general public think that they are. But on the other side of that, no matter how stupid the act or the law, has the letter of the law been broken? This is what the rules actually say about paid advocacy by an MP. guidetoprocedure.parliament.uk/articles/abhsXt6b/paid-advocacyPaid advocacy Paid advocacy is prohibited. Under the advocacy rule, an MP who has received a benefit such as hospitality, a gift or payment must not engage in any parliamentary proceeding, or any approach to a minister, other MP or public official which would provide a financial or material benefit for the person or organisation which provided them with that hospitality, gift or payment. The rule applies also if the hospitality, gift or payment was received by the MP’s partner or relative.
There are fewer restrictions if an MP is not initiating a parliamentary proceeding or an approach, and if this would not result in an exclusive benefit for the person or organisation which originally provided them with the hospitality, gift or payment. Further details are provided in the Guide to the Rules, and advice is available from the Registrar of Members’ Financial Interests or the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards.
Anybody any the wiser? I think from what I've read that he did try to get one of the companies he was working for paid by work to test milk for illegal substances in Northern Irelabnd, but I don't think they actually got any work. so does that still make him guilty? Probably "yes" on the spirit of the law for sure. Paterson's other beef is that the standards commissioner is biased or not even-handed. Here's another finding of hers recently. A Labour MP asked a constituent to get him / give him some diazepam, a licenced drug that can only be given under prescription. The MP received no punishment. From a press article: The Parliamentary Standards Commissioner has ruled that Labour MP Stephen Doughty showed a “severe error of judgement” in asking a vulnerable constituent to supply him diazepam – a prescription-only Class C drug – yet nonetheless ruled that he did not break the Parliamentary Code of Conduct in doing so. Apparently he was “complicit in a criminal offence”, though too “naive” to even realise it. Stephen Doughty is a lawmaker.
In a response issued on Wednesday, Commissioner Kathryn Stone said that while Doughty had invited the constituent to “meet his pet cat” and subsequently asked him for “any spare diazepam” for an upcoming flight (which he received the next day), he “did not demonstrate an appreciation that […] he was asking him to commit a criminal offence.” Ironically, Doughty ended up cancelling the flight and claims he never even took the diazepam anyway.
Stone concluded her ruling that Doughty had “learned a very difficult lesson“:
However damaging these events have been for Mr Doughty personally, I am not persuaded that his actions have caused significant damage to the reputation and integrity of the House as a whole, or of its Members generally. Mr Doughty has learned a very difficult lesson, but his naivety and ill advised behaviour does not reflect more widely on other Members. I do not therefore uphold the allegation that he acted in breach of paragraph 17 of the Code of Conduct.
The Parliamentary Standards Commissioner seems to have overlooked that Doughty did however blatantly breach paragraph 5 of the duty of the Code of Conduct:
“Members have a duty to uphold the law”
The claim that his “ill-advised behaviour does not reflect more widely on other Members” is arguable. If the public thinks MPs are legislating whilst hallucinating on diazepam it might explain a few things, it will however hardly enhance the reputation of MPs. Whilst Guido thinks it should be legal to buy happy pills like diazepam over the counter, it isn’t legal now. If being complicit in a criminal offence isn’t a breach of the MPs’ Code of Conduct it means lawmakers can be law breakers as far as the Standards Commissioner is concerned. So on the fairness and no appeal counts, I think Paterson has a point. What he should have done is take his 30 days punishment and keep his trap shut.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 16:07:25 GMT
Post by Tim on Nov 5, 2021 16:07:25 GMT
Agreed he's guilty (based on what I've read) and therefore his wife's suicide is entirely on his shoulders. I was pretty disgusted by him trying to blame the standards committee/process for that. As somebody said on the radio last night he could've simply accepted the 30 day suspension, kept his head down for a bit and carried on but he chose to do the opposite. As it is he's led the Tories into a position whereby it's highlighted that they look completely out of touch with the majority of the electorate. On the subject of standards, including expenses, I would happily put myself forward to sit on that committee as a truly independent person and would derive total satisfaction in holding MPs of all parties to the same standards that I'm expected to out here in the real world, be that payments for 2nd jobs or claiming of expenses - imagine if I tried to put through e.g. cleaning a duck pond on expenses and HMRC got wind of it!! At the end of the day MPs are still only employees after all. EDIT: Clearly I'll do all of the above while retaining my current full-time role but will expect payment for the 2 positions. £8k and £1k per month sounds about right
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 16:50:11 GMT
Post by PG on Nov 5, 2021 16:50:11 GMT
On the subject of standards, including expenses, I would happily put myself forward to sit on that committee as a truly independent person and would derive total satisfaction in holding MPs of all parties to the same standards that I'm expected to out here in the real world, be that payments for 2nd jobs or claiming of expenses - imagine if I tried to put through e.g. cleaning a duck pond on expenses and HMRC got wind of it!! At the end of the day MPs are still only employees after all. Agreed. If law makers had to live by the same laws, rules and standards as the general hoi-polloi, we might get some better / more sensible laws, standards and rules.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 17:41:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Nov 5, 2021 17:41:14 GMT
Can’t say I agree with Sunak not getting support. The conservatives prioritise winning above anything else. If they believe Sunak can win, they’ll support him. His bigger problem will be if/when then general public realise he can’t walk on water. If something like stagflation hits the economy (Which it could, with rising inflation and flat salaries )he’s toast. Or when the NI rises start to bite in April. That will rather hasten the furlough schemes disappearance from recent memory.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 18:18:50 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 5, 2021 18:18:50 GMT
Nope, you're not wrong and that what I alluded to with my Boer - ANC comparison. Although it's over 20 years ago my dad took his Hindu then girlfriend to church for a Sunday service. They may as well have walked in there naked carrying a banner proclaiming the benefits of satanism..... Winning a seat with a majority isn't the same deal as being elected by the members as leader. They said the same about a women leader and then woman PM in the 70s. Thankfully, over 40 years on from those unenlightened times, 98% of voters couldn’t give a monkeys about the colour of his skin.
|
|
|
Sleaze
Nov 5, 2021 19:22:06 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Nov 5, 2021 19:22:06 GMT
Can’t say I agree with Sunak not getting support. The conservatives prioritise winning above anything else. If they believe Sunak can win, they’ll support him. His bigger problem will be if/when then general public realise he can’t walk on water. If something like stagflation hits the economy (Which it could, with rising inflation and flat salaries )he’s toast. Or when the NI rises start to bite in April. That will rather hasten the furlough schemes disappearance from recent memory. Starts to bite? My pay cheque already had a £300 bite out of it starting last month thanks to "enhanced tax reserving"! Amused I was not.
|
|