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Post by Alex on Sept 20, 2021 21:10:40 GMT
I dont think it's as daft an idea as you're making out and I also dont think it needs to change vehicle design too much. Some earlier EVs have had some odd shape battery packs but that was largely because they were based on an ICE car so the battery fitted in the space where a transmission tunnel would have been. Modern pure EV platforms with their skateboard design allows for a pretty square battery pack rather.
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Post by PG on Sept 21, 2021 10:15:13 GMT
I can't see battery swaps being a possible solution to mass EV use. It might work for individual manufacturers (like Nio is doing) or people who all use the same skateboard system, but making a cross manufacturer compatible battery pack is not a simple job in my view. For not only has the battery to be identical, but also the battery cooling systems, heating and ventilation etc as all those hook up to the battery in some way.
And I can't see manufacturers liking it either for good marketing and brand reasons. If you take your £100k Porsche into the swap station and get a battery that also fits a £40k Hyundai, you might start to ask just why the Porsche is way more expensive.....
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 21, 2021 11:45:58 GMT
I can't see battery swaps being a possible solution to mass EV use. It might work for individual manufacturers (like Nio is doing) or people who all use the same skateboard system, but making a cross manufacturer compatible battery pack is not a simple job in my view. For not only has the battery to be identical, but also the battery cooling systems, heating and ventilation etc as all those hook up to the battery in some way. And I can't see manufacturers liking it either for good marketing and brand reasons. If you take your £100k Porsche into the swap station and get a battery that also fits a £40k Hyundai, you might start to ask just why the Porsche is way more expensive..... Do Porsche Macan owners not do that any anyway when they find out their car is just a VW underneath?
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 21, 2021 12:29:29 GMT
The car has to be designed from the outset to have it's pack removed quickly (and frequently) - so as you clearly indicate, a mass market solution would require every manufacturer to build around a few common pack designs and enable a quick change mechanism and access. Given the speed of battery development, the costs incurred in developing existing platforms either in use or about to be in use and the investment required to build enough charge/change hubs - I can't ever see it happening.
How many hours do you think it takes to currently (and safely) remove the pack from something like an I-Pace or a Taycan ?
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Post by PG on Sept 21, 2021 15:33:54 GMT
...And I can't see manufacturers liking it either for good marketing and brand reasons. If you take your £100k Porsche into the swap station and get a battery that also fits a £40k Hyundai, you might start to ask just why the Porsche is way more expensive..... Do Porsche Macan owners not do that any anyway when they find out their car is just a VW underneath? Maybe. But if they lifted the bonnet and instead of Porsche on the cover it said "VW 4 cylinder engine pack, 250hp" it might well be a lot more obvious.
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Post by Alex on Sept 22, 2021 7:09:48 GMT
I suppose the manufacturers don't want the inner workings of their cars to end up like computers which all have common motherboards and chips etc and the only difference is the casing and the badge on the front. Although tbh cars are sort of already that way with common components throughout.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 27, 2021 7:37:09 GMT
I bet there are a lot of smug electric car owners this week.
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Post by Martin on Sept 27, 2021 8:00:17 GMT
I bet there are a lot of smug electric car owners this week. I know there are!
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Post by johnc on Sept 27, 2021 9:16:08 GMT
I still haven't made my mind up about whether we take the i-Pace or M5 to head south on Wednesday. I spoke to a neighbour this morning who had driven up from Slough overnight and he said there were big queues everywhere but he was OK because he said the diesel pumps were still largely open. He also said the service stations don't appear to be as badly affected as the filing stations off the motorways (maybe because the have larger tanks/more regular deliveries)
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Post by Martin on Sept 27, 2021 9:38:44 GMT
I still haven't made my mind up about whether we take the i-Pace or M5 to head south on Wednesday. I spoke to a neighbour this morning who had driven up from Slough overnight and he said there were big queues everywhere but he was OK because he said the diesel pumps were still largely open. He also said the service stations don't appear to be as badly affected as the filing stations off the motorways (maybe because the have larger tanks/more regular deliveries) I read this morning that they are protecting supply to motorway service stations.
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Post by johnc on Sept 27, 2021 10:50:06 GMT
I currently have about 5/8ths of a tank in the M5 but with nowhere to fill it up before we go, that might get me about 250 miles down the road so I would need to be sure I could find fuel. Although the i-Pace comes with its own issues on refuelling for long journeys, at least I know the fuel will be available and we can start with a full tank!
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 27, 2021 11:13:59 GMT
I was wondering about PHEVs. Our neighbour has a company Passat GTE estate and yesterday, as she is low on fuel, she was trying to work out whether she could do the trip to her office in Surrey on the electric range.
But, if you do that, don't you then need to either (a) plug it in at your destination to recharge or (b) go home using petrol?
I don't know if she plugs it in at the office but I've not once seen it plugged in at home.
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Post by johnc on Sept 27, 2021 11:27:30 GMT
I was wondering about PHEVs. Our neighbour has a company Passat GTE estate and yesterday, as she is low on fuel, she was trying to work out whether she could do the trip to her office in Surrey on the electric range. But, if you do that, don't you then need to either (a) plug it in at your destination to recharge or (b) go home using petrol? I don't know if she plugs it in at the office but I've not once seen it plugged in at home. In real life she will be lucky to get 20 miles electric range and she will either have to charge it at the office or find petrol.
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Post by Martin on Sept 27, 2021 11:45:27 GMT
I was wondering about PHEVs. Our neighbour has a company Passat GTE estate and yesterday, as she is low on fuel, she was trying to work out whether she could do the trip to her office in Surrey on the electric range. But, if you do that, don't you then need to either (a) plug it in at your destination to recharge or (b) go home using petrol? I don't know if she plugs it in at the office but I've not once seen it plugged in at home. In real life she will be lucky to get 20 miles electric range and she will either have to charge it at the office or find petrol. I wouldn't want to cut it too tight. Bit off topic, but a guy I work with has recently got an X5 45e and in the first 3,500 miles it's done over 800 on electric despite it never been plugged in. No idea what the fuel consumption but it can't be good as he's using the engine as a generator, but he's not interested/bothered as he's got a fuel card and one of their valeters (directors perk) fills it up every Thursday before its cleaned, so he doesn't even have to fill it up that often.
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Post by johnc on Sept 27, 2021 12:05:39 GMT
The X5 45e is the best hybrid on sale at the moment for low tax. It does over 40 miles on electric only which moves it in to a much lower tax bracket. He really should stop being an ass and plug it in!
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Post by Martin on Sept 27, 2021 12:14:46 GMT
The X5 45e is the best hybrid on sale at the moment for low tax. It does over 40 miles on electric only which moves it in to a much lower tax bracket. He really should stop being an ass and plug it in! He has a fully funded company fuel card, so he won't do it as it would be at his cost for no (financial) benefit. His last car was a T8 XC60 and he didn't plug that in either.
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Post by clunes on Sept 27, 2021 12:22:53 GMT
The X5 45e is the best hybrid on sale at the moment for low tax. It does over 40 miles on electric only which moves it in to a much lower tax bracket. He really should stop being an ass and plug it in! He has a fully funded company fuel card, so he won't do it as it would be at his cost for no (financial) benefit. His last car was a T8 XC60 and he didn't plug that in either. If you have/qualify for a fuel card I know our company will pay for the cost of charging a full EV both at home and when out but I don't know how this policy applies to a PHEV - I expect it's like your colleague in that they will only pay the fuel and it's probably far more of a financial benefit to keep that. In my case a hybrid could work very well as I could get the fuel paid by the company plus get free charging on-site at the office for the leccy!
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 27, 2021 14:53:17 GMT
I reckon the huge majority of PHEV owners never plug them in.
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Post by johnc on Sept 27, 2021 15:16:57 GMT
I reckon the huge majority of PHEV owners never plug them in. Except when you have a full EV and can't get charged on the motorway because half the spaces are filled by PHEV's!
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 27, 2021 15:34:48 GMT
I bet there are a lot of smug electric car owners this week. I know there are! We'll have the last laugh when all the Poles running the National Grid go home...
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Post by johnc on Sept 28, 2021 8:40:49 GMT
The problem in the North and Scotland doesn't appear to be as bad as the midlands and further south. Most of our petrol stations have fuel although Super Unleaded is a bit rare. However we have decided to go electric again for the trip to Nottingham/Silverstone because we will always get charged somewhere even if it takes us longer and we might need to stay over somewhere. We just can't risk being stuck somewhere without petrol. We are heading off this afternoon instead of the original plan which was tomorrow morning. I suppose I should be grateful we have the choice.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 28, 2021 9:01:46 GMT
I reckon the huge majority of PHEV owners never plug them in. I plug ours in, but mainly because its free at the Club. I have charged it twice at home too. As to range: I assume the range test is sitting at 60kph with the air con off and no other ancillary equipment in use on an empty autobahn on low resistance tyres, not sitting in traffic in Epsom with the aircon on, stereo playing from the wifi connected phone, nav updating the route etc. I wouldn't attempt Fulham - Surrey and back again on a single charge even if the manual says that can be done.
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Post by Boxer6 on Sept 28, 2021 15:35:40 GMT
The problem in the North and Scotland doesn't appear to be as bad as the midlands and further south. Most of our petrol stations have fuel although Super Unleaded is a bit rare.However we have decided to go electric again for the trip to Nottingham/Silverstone because we will always get charged somewhere even if it takes us longer and we might need to stay over somewhere. We just can't risk being stuck somewhere without petrol. We are heading off this afternoon instead of the original plan which was tomorrow morning. I suppose I should be grateful we have the choice. Filled up the mighty Skoda earlier at our local Tesco (as always, I might add) No issues with diseasil or E10, but none of the pumps had (E5) Momentum in stock. I did wonder if it was simply the E10 "thing" driving that particular aspect of things.
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Post by Alex on Sept 28, 2021 21:53:29 GMT
It was the opposite when the wife filled up at our local Tesco yesterday afternoon. They only had Momentum. She's never treated her Panda to that before. Its probably added at least 10 horses.
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 26, 2021 17:04:44 GMT
Talking of electric cars, my wife had another one of her periodic bouts of interest in chopping her car for a new electric one, and once again she just took one look at the amount they cost and went off into a sweary rant.
And she has a point. Her 500 Twinair Lounge cost her £11k new in 2013. An equivalent electric one - so call it an Icon with the longer range - is, even after grants and discounts, a £25k car. That's just insane.
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Post by garry on Oct 27, 2021 6:33:29 GMT
Talking of electric cars, my wife had another one of her periodic bouts of interest in chopping her car for a new electric one, and once again she just took one look at the amount they cost and went off into a sweary rant. And she has a point. Her 500 Twinair Lounge cost her £11k new in 2013. An equivalent electric one - so call it an Icon with the longer range - is, even after grants and discounts, a £25k car. That's just insane. That does feel insane! I think the problem is that the cost floor for building an EV is high due to batteries. This doesn’t really impact expensive EVs where the costs can be masked, but becomes very painful for lower cost versions, hence very little EV choice below 30k. Mini is the best example, where the stark price difference between EV and combustion versions of the same car are easy to see. I reckon nearly all EV buyers are company drivers taking advantage of bik. There is no way that the Fiat 500e could make any sense without huge financial incentives.
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Post by johnc on Oct 27, 2021 7:48:35 GMT
Talking of electric cars, my wife had another one of her periodic bouts of interest in chopping her car for a new electric one, and once again she just took one look at the amount they cost and went off into a sweary rant. And she has a point. Her 500 Twinair Lounge cost her £11k new in 2013. An equivalent electric one - so call it an Icon with the longer range - is, even after grants and discounts, a £25k car. That's just insane. That does feel insane! I think the problem is that the cost floor for building an EV is high due to batteries. This doesn’t really impact expensive EVs where the costs can be masked, but becomes very painful for lower cost versions, hence very little EV choice below 30k. Mini is the best example, where the stark price difference between EV and combustion versions of the same car are easy to see. I reckon nearly all EV buyers are company drivers taking advantage of bik. There is no way that the Fiat 500e could make any sense without huge financial incentives. The inflated new prices and the fact that most are bought by companies might lead to very large falls in value for 2 to 3 year old cars, as used to happen with the fleet Cortinas, Cavaliers, Vectras, Mondeos etc
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Post by PG on Oct 27, 2021 9:04:07 GMT
....I reckon nearly all EV buyers are company drivers taking advantage of bik. There is no way that the Fiat 500e could make any sense without huge financial incentives. The inflated new prices and the fact that most are bought by companies might lead to very large falls in value for 2 to 3 year old cars, as used to happen with the fleet Cortinas, Cavaliers, Vectras, Mondeos etc I reckon there will be a fall in values but it might take a few 3 year lease cycles to bring that about. I reckon any 3 year old EV's will be snapped up by private buyers in the coming years. If we chose to go EV, that's the sort of car I'd probably be looking for and I can't be the only one. Unless there is some massive leap in battery technology in which case all bets are off. It may be that the government have been clever in that incentivising company buyers was probably the only sensible way to get the market moving. Big subsidies direct to private buyers immediately brings out the "you're just subsidising the rich" brigade.
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Post by garry on Oct 27, 2021 9:21:33 GMT
That does feel insane! I think the problem is that the cost floor for building an EV is high due to batteries. This doesn’t really impact expensive EVs where the costs can be masked, but becomes very painful for lower cost versions, hence very little EV choice below 30k. Mini is the best example, where the stark price difference between EV and combustion versions of the same car are easy to see. I reckon nearly all EV buyers are company drivers taking advantage of bik. There is no way that the Fiat 500e could make any sense without huge financial incentives. The inflated new prices and the fact that most are bought by companies might lead to very large falls in value for 2 to 3 year old cars, as used to happen with the fleet Cortinas, Cavaliers, Vectras, Mondeos etc Wasn’t that a supply/demand imbalance issue? Saying that, I only plan to lease EVs for now because I don’t fancy a ride on a residual roller coaster.
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Post by johnc on Oct 27, 2021 10:20:07 GMT
I have a client who has signed up to take a 4 year lease on a Porsche Taycan Cross Tourismo 4S for about £850/mth + VAT and around £7K down payment. He is well able to buy it outright but as Garry said, he doesn't want to take a chance on residuals. He will be paying about 50% of the value of the car over the period (he gets to recover 50% of the VAT) and he is quite OK with that.
Our i-Pace had a list price of £76,040 and is about 15mths old. You could have bought one with discount for about £67K when we got ours. Looking at cars for sale at the moment a 15mth old i-Pace HSE is selling for c £65K so maybe values are holding up better than thought - or maybe values are just inflated along with all other used cars at the moment! Only time will tell.
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