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Post by Tim on Aug 19, 2021 9:05:55 GMT
I was talking to my daughter about the high number of A grades being awarded and how, in my opinion, they need to make the exams more difficult or the pass mark higher so that they can differentiate between students again. Her view was slightly different than I expected and she said that there was now much more emphasis on your personal statement, non academic activities/achievements and your interview, to differentiate between students. She has a friend who is a straight A student who wants to do medicine and both of her parents are also consultants. She couldn't get a place anywhere this year and is having to take a year out - apparently it was all going well until she had her interview, which doesn't make much sense to me because she is very empathetic and has worked the last two summers for a GP we know and has a glowing reference about the way she handles patients. I don't understand how someone of my age is meant to be able to interpret all this exam bullshit if faced with a candidate young enough that what they did at school actually matters. Obviously it doesn't help that I don't have kids and therefore don't understand the current system but a friend's daughter explained it all a few years ago and all I took from it was that basically the exam ratings meant very little to someone who did that stuff in the 80s when A, B or C was pass at a particular % and D below was a fail and that the pass mark was 50%. It was an eye opener recently when Mrs Tim went to work in the assessment dept of one of the subjects for a prestigious local university and the results gymnastics undertaken to achieve pass rates became apparent. Lets just say that in the near future I will be very wary of any young GPs educated at a coastal town in Fife. I'm not happy at the thought that my GP may have got below 40% for an anatomy exam and yet still passed. That means there's a 60% chance they don't actually know where my heart is located
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 19, 2021 12:50:51 GMT
I don't know about anyone else but I'm 56 and I still put my school gymnastic award on my CV when submitting it to potential employers.
It shows I can bend over backwards for them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 12:55:21 GMT
That problem is not a surprise, the surprise is that any of them do.
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Post by Big Blue on Aug 19, 2021 13:05:03 GMT
At O Level as set by (I think I remember) Oxford University Schools Examinations Board in 1984 50%-60% was a"C" (pass suitable to be proposed for A level); 60%-70% a "B" and over 70% was an "A". I know this because on the B paper for Maths I got 93% at mocks and my closest rival on what was considered the harder paper was under 70%. I was over 70% on the A paper and in the actual exams I finished each in under an hour of the 2½ allocated per paper.
I don't think the scoring was any different at "A" level in '86 either. There was none of this A*, A Distinction etc. - you could either do it or you couldn't.
As to modern GPs in the UK - don't get disheartened by their exam results: most visits are usually resolved by the GP looking up stuff on Google!
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Post by garry on Aug 20, 2021 9:41:47 GMT
Some thoughts and facts on this:
There are just shy of 1 million kids in a school year. About 250k of them go on to complete a levels. Those achieving 4 a*’s at a level is circa 5 % of the cohort. That means that if you lined up all primary school kids on the day they start school then I in 100 are going to exit with top grades at a level. Getting top grades is still pretty rare.
Personal statements and achievements outside of education really do count these days, I got a place a Leeds University by being asked a few questions about the coefficient of friction, today’s kids have to show more rounded capability.
I sat o levels in 84 and a levels in 86. I got A in o level maths and A in a level maths ( with mechanics, which is now called further maths). I still have the papers and I’ve looked at the current papers vs what we did, they are strikingly similar, but the current a level paper has matrix transformations that I only saw at university ( mech eng degree). My son had no difficulty (beyond some of the language) in doing an ‘86 maths a level paper.
In my day, an A grade was capped at 10% of the cohort, this year A* was 17% of the cohort. It’s increased, but not to the point of having no value.
Teaching is very different today, They coach to results rather than teaching to a syllabus. When I was at school the end result defined my success or failure, today the teacher sees it as their badge of honour.
The kids that I know are quite different form in my youth. They are way more focused and directed than I recall.
There seems to be quite a lot of old men trying to claim it was tougher when they were kids. It’s a story that repeats every generation.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 20, 2021 10:18:26 GMT
I did my O levels in 1981 and got an A Grade but I found the jump to A Level really difficult, particularly around differentiation and integration formula and calcs. It just seemed a massive step up in understanding. If those are still on the A Level papers I don't envy kids of any generation (I failed A Level maths!).
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Post by PG on Aug 20, 2021 19:41:16 GMT
I did my O levels in 1981 and got an A Grade but I found the jump to A Level really difficult, particularly around differentiation and integration formula and calcs. It just seemed a massive step up in understanding. Quite agree re integration. I did maths A level in 1976 - There were three sections to the paper, pure maths (including the dreaded integration which once it got beyond the trivial, was where maths and I parted company), mechanics (men holding weights in free fallling lifts and so on) and statistics. There was also a Further Maths A level - some people did Maths, Further Maths and Physics. Not me. I did get an A grade, but I answered the maximum allowed stats questions and the minimum required pure and mechanics ones.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 20, 2021 21:21:21 GMT
some people did Maths, Further Maths and Physics. That's what I did, but in 1978. B, C, D respectively and look where it got me :-(
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 21, 2021 20:15:35 GMT
The kids that I know are quite different form in my youth. They are way more focused and directed than I recall. There seems to be quite a lot of old men trying to claim it was tougher when they were kids. It’s a story that repeats every generation. The A level exams in 1986 were more difficult to pass, and more difficult to get a top grade in. It was definitely tougher when this old man was a kid. UK academic qualifications have been massively devalued. The system has been deliberately engineered so that the exams are now easier to pass. And the proportion of Firsts awarded by universities has more than quadrupled in the last 25 years. There's absolutely no way that the young adults of today are significantly brighter (or more academic or directed or focused) than their counterparts of 20, 30, 40 years ago. I certainly see no signs of this in the actual workplace (I've worked at 18 companies now, mostly large ones). And I would wager that the specific A level maths exams I took in 1986 (MEI Maths, MEI Further Maths) were harder than today's A level maths exams. The MEI Maths board was proper hard. So there.
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 21, 2021 20:42:09 GMT
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Post by garry on Aug 23, 2021 9:14:35 GMT
The kids that I know are quite different form in my youth. They are way more focused and directed than I recall. There seems to be quite a lot of old men trying to claim it was tougher when they were kids. It’s a story that repeats every generation. The A level exams in 1986 were more difficult to pass, and more difficult to get a top grade in. It was definitely tougher when this old man was a kid. UK academic qualifications have been massively devalued. The system has been deliberately engineered so that the exams are now easier to pass. And the proportion of Firsts awarded by universities has more than quadrupled in the last 25 years. There's absolutely no way that the young adults of today are significantly brighter (or more academic or directed or focused) than their counterparts of 20, 30, 40 years ago. I certainly see no signs of this in the actual workplace (I've worked at 18 companies now, mostly large ones). And I would wager that the specific A level maths exams I took in 1986 (MEI Maths, MEI Further Maths) were harder than today's A level maths exams. The MEI Maths board was proper hard. So there. Yep, that’s the old man tough talk I was referring to, it’s the same in sport. My Dad for ever tells me that these young cyclists of today have nothing on his generation, but the truth is that a decent club rider of 2021 could break the world record on 25 mile TT set in the early 80’s. In my sport I have done times this year that would have won the Ironman world championship from the early 80’s. I’m 53!! Take it to running and you’ll see the same thing. The first winner of the London marathon wouldn’t make the top 15 in 2019 and would not have been quick enough to qualify for the team gb Tokyo team. The interesting experiment would be to see how a cohort of kids did with your ‘86 MEI papers using current teaching techniques. My wager is that there would be a noticeable uplift in results.
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Post by PetrolEd on Aug 23, 2021 9:43:18 GMT
Results are only one measure of success. A very important measure that provides options not available to a more average student like my good self but no point leaving school with 5 A* grades if you have the social skills of a senior librarian.
When I was at school there was always the one guy who you wanted to hate but couldn't help admiring. You know the one, Captain of Rugby who had England trials, bloody good looking fellow who was shagging everything that moved, an A grade student who already had his place secured at Oxford to read Archeology and become Indiana Jones for the rest of his life. But there was also the tragic case of the nerd who got crap all day long that again was a bright kid but a social disaster that no matter how many A grades were scored would never amount to much. You need to find a happy place on the X/Y axis of happiness and academia/income that most of us probably still haven't got right.
Of course being loved and Bright is also no guarantee, you might end up being Boris Johnson!
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Post by Big Blue on Aug 23, 2021 21:19:17 GMT
Some thoughts and facts on this: There are just shy of 1 million kids in a school year. About 250k of them go on to complete a levels. Those achieving 4 a*’s at a level is circa 5 % of the cohort. That means that if you lined up all primary school kids on the day they start school then I in 100 are going to exit with top grades at a level. Getting top grades is still pretty rare. Personal statements and achievements outside of education really do count these days, I got a place a Leeds University by being asked a few questions about the coefficient of friction, today’s kids have to show more rounded capability. I sat o levels in 84 and a levels in 86. I got A in o level maths and A in a level maths ( with mechanics, which is now called further maths). I still have the papers and I’ve looked at the current papers vs what we did, they are strikingly similar, but the current a level paper has matrix transformations that I only saw at university ( mech eng degree). My son had no difficulty (beyond some of the language) in doing an ‘86 maths a level paper. In my day, an A grade was capped at 10% of the cohort, this year A* was 17% of the cohort. It’s increased, but not to the point of having no value. Teaching is very different today, They coach to results rather than teaching to a syllabus. When I was at school the end result defined my success or failure, today the teacher sees it as their badge of honour. The kids that I know are quite different form in my youth. They are way more focused and directed than I recall. There seems to be quite a lot of old men trying to claim it was tougher when they were kids. It’s a story that repeats every generation. Go and look at the charts on page 12 and see how much modern kids must be supercharged versions of human beings. Either that or something else changed…… researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04252/SN04252.pdf With regard to individual and personal scenarios, the exam board setting your papers has a huge effect. As I said we had Oxford-set O levels and London-set A levels. My maths was A level maths, A Level further maths and A level Pure Mathematics with Theoretical Mechanics. We did matrices in the ordinary A level. I did Physics too. I also have a Degree, a Masters and two lots of professional qualifications both from Institutions with Royal Charters. This is all bollocks because I still work with clients (ie those with the power to employ my skills, sack me and question my work) who have trouble finding their elbow when wiping their arse. I have met plasterers with more valid opinion and understanding of the world than policy setters advising cabinet ministers and I have met ultra-qualified, planet-sized-brain folks belittled by morons with larger personalities but no definable skills beyond that. I have no doubt your son found the older papers no trouble as his own achievements clearly mark him out as exceptional but those charts on page 12 of that pdf need other data. There were lots of A level students back then but not that high a percentage from state schools. We had an annual intake of around 200. Our Upper 6th was around 16. Of those around half went to Uni or Poly. In 1986. Education has changed as have humans: our beliefs, standards, society and understanding, particularly of technology. We were not allowed to possess a calculator at our school but my youngest kids are doing all their work on the Android tablets each child is given in Year three. We had to go to libraries to find stuff out and the books were often not the latest thinking if they had publication dates in the 60s or 70s - my kids can research in seconds giving them more time to think about it and firm form opinions or make juxtaposed rationale in a word processed with no errors essay. So the competition is harder. Maths is hard anyway if your brain can’t do it (arty son #3 not a clue; logical son #1 walked through it - they’re born minutes apart so it’s not any difference in upbringing aside from themselves) and passing at the highest level needs to equate to something the previous generation who are the new employers can relate to but looking at those charts again I can’t help feeling that overall it’s not as hard to say you passed your exams than it was before. I’ll also add in fairly blunt terms that education is much kinder today than in our day. Son #2 (the middle triplet) is autistic on a scale that means he’s reached the age of 20 without being run over, bullied, missing school or not wishing to be alive. He’s had a focussed education that has followed the curriculum as it suits him and this has been delivered at schools and colleges that don’t behave like the institutions that were littered across the Epsom of my youth, where the annual treat was to collect the rubbish from the Downs after the Derby meeting. PG will know what I’m talking about when I say thick kids were referred to as “Ebbas” throughout my school life. I recognise that kids like #2 were that disruptive kid in the corner that kept running out of the classroom and if you tried to fight them they went ballistic and did for anyone (#2 is 6’ 4” now - he was never a little kid). So it’s not just easier now on kids like #2 but it’s also easier on the others because their education is being delivered far better in a system that has understanding and empathy for a far wider spectrum of children. Overall they are luckier, as we were than our parents who in my case were bombed as babies and left school still on food rationing. The cycling analogy is an example of the march of technology and understanding. The bikes on the road today weight as much as one wheel and gear set of the past. The available diet and understanding of training is different each year, in cycling this includes the cocktails of drugs and blood oxygenators obviously. Similarly if a Premier League footballer headed a 1970s football they’d be in hospital before the final whistle and if they kicked one wearing modern boots they’d be out for a year whilst their metatarsals mended. Perhaps education is like most things: you can’t realistically compare the results and achievements of different generations because there are far too many affecting factors. ETA: I made an error and corrected it to show how easy it is to hand in work that isn’t error-ridden and in some cases totally illegible.
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 24, 2021 8:53:28 GMT
Yep. Give the kids (or athletes, or cyclists) of 1966, 1986, 2006 and 2021 equal equipment and equal opportunity and then see which set does best. I suspect the results of each cohort would be pretty similar. However. When comparing the grades that these cohorts of kids attained in their actual exams, far more of the 2021 cohort would be given a pass mark and far more of them would be given the top grade. That's my point. It's absolutely great that teaching has improved, technology has improved, and access to content has improved as Jeff suggests. But I would say with some confidence that today's cohort of kids is not significantly superior intrinsically when compared to the 1986 cohort. Yet the academic grades awarded to them for the same level of examinations would suggest otherwise. I suspect that the methods of assessment these days flatter the results compared to back in the day. This is probably fairer to the students, but supports my old man talk that it was indeed tougher in 1986 than today. I contend that the grades awarded nowadays are not directly comparable to those awarded to tough old men, and this is to the detriment of the brightest kids in the 2021 cohort whose grades are now rendered indistinguishable from those of the 'Ebbas'
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Post by Martin on Aug 24, 2021 10:56:52 GMT
I don’t know whether A levels were harder in my day or not and I’m not bothered either way. I did well in mine, not A* well, but well enough to get into a decent University. If I wanted to be an accountant/doctor or go into a career that needed a professional qualification then I’d have gone, but I’d had enough of academic life and wanted to get out into the real world and into a job. I’ve worked hard and although I’m not the most academic person I know (which I’m quite happy about), the problem solving / solution forming part of my brain works very well, so I’ve done OK, especially in the last 10 years where I’ve been able to work on and demonstrate my leadership skills.
My eldest found secondary school too easy and got A’s and B’s in his GCSEs without having to put any effort it. He found that didn’t work when he was doing A levels and he got frustrated with education, still got 3 x A levels above C grade but was adamant he wasn’t going to University. I then knew what my parents thought when I said the same all those years ago but I was even more understanding! He didn’t know what he wanted to do, so got a job at a local printing company as a machine operator. That was back in December, he passed his 6 months probation after 2 months and got a decent pay rise and after only being there 7 months he was promoted to assistant production supervisor and he’s in charge of a new unit they have just leased along with a brand new fully computerised printing machine and a couple of guys much older than him and he’s doing a great job. He won’t be doing it for ever, but I’m probably more proud of him than I have been or would be for academic results.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2021 11:15:10 GMT
Sara's brother has a similar route through scholastic and employment. Nothing fancy exam wise but he got into printing on the bottom rung too and is now a highly regarded manager with great prospects. The practical side can be nothing more than a different route through life. NCVQ's for example are more adaptable than many believe and can be brought up to degree level. I did a City and Guilds of London qualification (No 752) and while it was OK, not as adaptable or even as workable as the NCVQ, when I got into teaching that I had to raise my game considerably which was much more rewarding for me too.
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