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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 21, 2021 11:48:08 GMT
Just out of curiosity, what would need to now happen for you to think that we were making a collective mistake? On the scale between normality and 28 Days Later? I guess you could argue that I should err on the side of caution, accept measures etc, but I think this is where our viewpoints diverge because our lived experience differs greatly. The measures are easy for me to live with( as I suspect they are for you), but they are incredibly damaging for my kids. They are missing huge amounts of education, but the social impact is my biggest concern. My daughter has spent her first year in sixth form, mostly learning via a screen from her bedroom and has not made a single new friend. Put yourself back to that time of your life and consider how weird it is to not be out there and expanding your social network, building your social skills, etc. Do you think there will be no long term impact on her? I've got friends dealing with life threatening mental health problems with their child - it can happen when a 12 year old finds out for the fourth time in year that they aren't allowed to go out of the front door for ten days and they have no idea how long they'll be free for. Do you think there will be no long term impact on him? And we're sacrificing our kids for what exactly? So that the very old and very infirm can have an extra few months in a care home? Remember, the average age of a Covid victim is greater than average life expectancy. So i see those masks as an outward symbol of the Hell we're putting the younger generation through. As such, I refuse to comply and I'm happy when I see others refusing because the only way I see this ending now is through non-compliance. Couldn't agree more where kids are concerned. All this talk of a potential lockdown in the autumn/winter is enough to drive me to madness let alone kids that need social interaction as a key development tool. They should be having the time of their lives rather then stuck in the box room looking at a computer screen all day.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 21, 2021 12:47:08 GMT
I would like to think that any attempt to impose further lockdowns will be met by mass civil disobedience.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jul 21, 2021 12:49:13 GMT
I absolutely agree with Garry on this.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 21, 2021 13:15:44 GMT
And it's a fair attempt at an answer to a question nobody has the answer to. I've just been chatting virtually to one of our vac schemers - I can't begin to imagine what doing a virtual vac scheme is like - particularly since for us they are an integral part of the interview process for a training contract. So I do get the isolated teenagers point. We had my wife's 19yr old cousin staying with us for the month of June and he definitely was way more cautious and risk-averse than any normal 19yr old guy and I don't think it's a question simply of character.
I'm just worried that because our PM is indeed a bit prone to knee-jerk changes of direction and appears to lack any form of spine, we'll career back into mass restrictions pretty soon at this rate. Which will be worse.
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Post by Alex on Jul 21, 2021 14:39:36 GMT
Agree with Garry on the point about our kids. My youngest daughter has been incredibly hard hit by the lockdown, especially the second full lockdown at the beginning of this year. We had problems with getting her to school due to anxiety after the first lockdown as she was finishing primary school. It took her a long time to adjust to secondary school and she missed so much she wasn't picked up by the SENCO for her dyslexia. During this years lockdown she struggled massively with remote learning so when they did go back in late March she was really behind and struggled in class. She made it through with sporadic days at school up to Easter before having a complete mental breakdown. We've not managed to get her to school since and the spiral of depression she's gotten herself into has led to her rarely leaving the house (as I type it's been 10 days since she last walked out the front door).
A lot of her mental health problems started when she was a bit younger but I'm not in any doubt that the school closures have exacerbated it to the point that I dont see her ever returning to full time education. Shes not an isolated case. The numbers of kids being out of school through anxiety/depression or being pulled out by parents too scared to send them in is at an all time high. This will scar their generation for years to come.
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Post by Tim on Jul 21, 2021 15:03:46 GMT
I agree on the points about kids but I feel the adults have to take a lot of responsibility here as whenever a lockdown has been released a huge number appear to have gone from one extreme to another, i.e. full lockdown to total freedom. As I've said a number of times there has been little common sense exhibited among the wider populace which has inevitably lead us back into a subsequent lockdown. Hopefully this time will be different thanks to the vaccine.
My brother in law plays in a wedding band and in the 3 gigs they've done since being allowed to he said the complete ignorance of any restrictions that were in place was shocking (but he wasn't surprised). Alcohol seems to be a particular barrier to thinking of any consequences at all.
I'm not advocating draconian restrictions but just a bit of thought.
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Post by chipbutty on Jul 21, 2021 16:00:06 GMT
What huge number ? where is this documented ? or are you assuming that a rise in " cases " can only ever be down to people going from " one extreme to another " ?
I've not seen any evidence first hand of people going to extremes other than the recent sights of drunk football fans doing some over exuberant football cuddling. Given that during every other lockdown release, full scale events were banned of this type were banned, I am genuinely unclear as to what the extremes of behaviour are.
It's quite unsettling to see how quickly we all point the finger at each other rather than questioning the validity of the data, the validity of the risk assessment and subsequent decisions that the Government have implemented.
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Post by LandieMark on Jul 21, 2021 16:52:10 GMT
Just out of curiosity, what would need to now happen for you to think that we were making a collective mistake? On the scale between normality and 28 Days Later? It's a good question. And quite difficult to answer. My supposition is that the measures (lockdown, masks, etc) make a tiny difference. I base this on the fact that many places across the world can't or won't have measures in place and there is no evidence of the death spiral that Sage talk of (This is a massive sticking point for me. Models means nothing when real data is available. Real data says the death spiral is bogus). Additionally it's impossible to correlate measures to outcomes. Data is available from most regions and you can see the 'waves' of covid but when you overlay the introduction of measures onto those graphs there isn't a link. (The UK has mostly introduced measures as a covid wave has been in decline and so measures look causal, but are after-the-fact). So I think removing the measures will have the tiniest of impact in terms of deaths and hospitalisation. What happens over the next few months would happen anyway, with the caveat that people will, without any legislation, modify their behaviour in small but impactful ways (hand washing, etc). I will accept I'm wrong on this if the UK (perhaps I should say England) finds itself as an outlier in terms of deaths and hospitalisations. This cannot be a a simple snapshot. The nature of Covid 'waves' means you can make any case you want by picking data from a specific date. I guess you could argue that I should err on the side of caution, accept measures etc, but I think this is where our viewpoints diverge because our lived experience differs greatly. The measures are easy for me to live with( as I suspect they are for you), but they are incredibly damaging for my kids. They are missing huge amounts of education, but the social impact is my biggest concern. My daughter has spent her first year in sixth form, mostly learning via a screen from her bedroom and has not made a single new friend. Put yourself back to that time of your life and consider how weird it is to not be out there and expanding your social network, building your social skills, etc. Do you think there will be no long term impact on her? I've got friends dealing with life threatening mental health problems with their child - it can happen when a 12 year old finds out for the fourth time in year that they aren't allowed to go out of the front door for ten days and they have no idea how long they'll be free for. Do you think there will be no long term impact on him? And we're sacrificing our kids for what exactly? So that the very old and very infirm can have an extra few months in a care home? Remember, the average age of a Covid victim is greater than average life expectancy. So i see those masks as an outward symbol of the Hell we're putting the younger generation through. As such, I refuse to comply and I'm happy when I see others refusing because the only way I see this ending now is through non-compliance. I agree with all of that, and I was happy with the first lock down and took a cautious view. Now that a huge amount of the population is vaccinated, we need to let it run its course and get on with life.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 21, 2021 18:02:13 GMT
The biggest concern / gripe I have currently is that the younger people in society are not yet fully vaccinated and there is a push to get them vaccinated. However the government are then advising that arrival from or via France (eg most driving holidaymakers) are to quarantine regardless of being double vaccinated. Counter this with the (current) French message, where they are also pushing for greater vaccination numbers, that if you are fully vaccinated you may come and go as you please.
One message is that we have faith in the vaccination programme to open up society so get yourself vaccinated the other is we haven’t as much faith as you think we do so why are you going to bother?
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Post by LandieMark on Jul 21, 2021 18:06:39 GMT
Yep, mixed messages all over the place are not helping at all.
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Post by Alex on Jul 21, 2021 18:32:37 GMT
Mixed messages from this government. Who'd have thought it?
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Post by Boxer6 on Jul 21, 2021 20:20:34 GMT
Mixed messages from this government. Who'd have thought it? It's fair shocked me, that I can tell you!
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Post by Tim on Jul 22, 2021 8:08:23 GMT
What huge number ? where is this documented ? or are you assuming that a rise in " cases " can only ever be down to people going from " one extreme to another " ? I've not seen any evidence first hand of people going to extremes other than the recent sights of drunk football fans doing some over exuberant football cuddling. Given that during every other lockdown release, full scale events were banned of this type were banned, I am genuinely unclear as to what the extremes of behaviour are. It's quite unsettling to see how quickly we all point the finger at each other rather than questioning the validity of the data, the validity of the risk assessment and subsequent decisions that the Government have implemented. Er, exactly things like that. All I'm trying to say is that when a release from lockdown occurs a lot of people have instantly gone back to their old life - going on a packed train (dancing, hugging, singing and drinking) to and from football matches or cramming into pubs. I don't know if you've watched any news footage but the evidence is there in front of you. That seems like an extreme of behaviour to me. Maybe not in context of the past 10 years but certainly in relation to the past 18 months. There was a large rise in the number of cases in Scotland immediately following the Scotland/England football match. I personally know 3 people who travelled to London that subsequently had Covid and 1 other who went to the pub to watch it, caught it and passed it on to his family. 2 of the people who travelled to London did so to watch the match on a big screen somewhere because they didn't have a ticket. While there's a virus being spread doesn't that just come across as a teeny bit daft? They could've stayed up here, gone to a park and watched it in sunshine instead of travelling on a metal tube and then getting drenched. That's not pointing the finger as simply, to my mind, pointing out cause and effect. I know the rules say you can now go from only doing X to being able to do Y but I'm choosing to exercise caution to a degree - my work trips to Aberdeen have been by car rather than train for example - and while loads of people are doing the same I can see from footage that many others aren't. Does that explain it for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 9:49:53 GMT
Well, I delayed my trip to Hasda Be and am going today. I will wear a mask in the facility and am fully expecting some of the gobbier types to start. I'm not sure how I will deal with it but I will do my best. Crossing fingers and hoping Bess makes it.
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Post by garry on Jul 22, 2021 15:36:13 GMT
Well, I delayed my trip to Hasda Be and am going today. I will wear a mask in the facility and am fully expecting some of the gobbier types to start. I'm not sure how I will deal with it but I will do my best. Crossing fingers and hoping Bess makes it. I’d be surprised (and a bit disappointed) if you get hassle for wearing a mask. It might not be something I want to do but it’s completely unacceptable to hassle someone because they choose to wear one. I’ve just had a day out at the rhs flower show and mask wearers could be counted on the fingers of one hand (but it was mostly outside and it is 30 degrees c). I took it that they either had a health issue or were just more concerned then the majority of visitors. Either way, their choice and it should be respected.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 22, 2021 15:54:53 GMT
I've never heard of anyone getting hassle for wearing a mask indoors, or anywhere for that matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 16:12:04 GMT
Apart from some confused and a few dirty looks, the mask thing was a non issue thankfully. The comment on Bess was prophetic. Running rough I did not go as far as Hasda be. Last week I tooped the fuel up with as much as it would take. £14 spomething. By the time I got to Morri=sons, it was obvious she was running on the last dregs and I have been nowhere in the car over the last week. £32 in fuel and she was obviously in much better health. Only one way to lose almost a whole tank of fuel when a car does not turn a wheel.
I have apparently been accused of stalking the local witch, she thinks if I go outside while she is out I must be a stalker. Seriously, what I see of her is too much. Her pet poodle is the mechanic. twelve years in REME means I am looking at him.
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Post by Martin on Jul 22, 2021 16:58:56 GMT
I stayed at the Hilton Old Trafford last night and there was a sign asking people to wear masks and all the staff were. I’d guess at least 75% of the guests had a mask on in reception and moving between there and the restaurant/bar.
Nothing was said to those who didn’t as far as I saw.
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 22, 2021 17:16:32 GMT
Crossing fingers and hoping Bess makes it. 3 week-ends time is the Camberley Car Show, usually attended by Edd China; it's all for charity. If the weather is kind etc I shall seek him out and ask if he's interested in having a look at a yellow Type 3........
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 22, 2021 17:48:21 GMT
At Stansted this morning it was pretty much 100% masks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 18:31:51 GMT
Crossing fingers and hoping Bess makes it. 3 week-ends time is the Camberley Car Show, usually attended by Edd China; it's all for charity. If the weather is kind etc I shall seek him out and ask if he's interested in having a look at a yellow Type 3........ I thank you, Sir. Actually going to change the oil myself over the next dew days and hoping to ask the local race tuner is he can sort carbs which will at least be a start. I reckon it will be a result to get some pointers and I could do with some about now...
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Post by PG on Jul 23, 2021 7:01:56 GMT
I see a report published today says that making children isolate was a waste of time. Far better to test instead. From the report - "The Oxford study found that 98.4 per cent of children who were sent home for 10 days never went on to develop Covid – a result set to anger parents and pupils forced to stay at home needlessly."
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Post by garry on Jul 23, 2021 14:15:40 GMT
I see a report published today says that making children isolate was a waste of time. Far better to test instead. From the report - "The Oxford study found that 98.4 per cent of children who were sent home for 10 days never went on to develop Covid – a result set to anger parents and pupils forced to stay at home needlessly."This number is lower than the ONS estimate of the prevalence of covid across England - they claim 1 in 75 people are catching covid over seven days (so roughly 1 in 525 per day). This report shows a prevalence of 1.6% (1 in 62.5) over ten days (so roughly 1 in 625 per day). So kids being sent home because someone in their bubble is infected are about 20% less likely to test positive for Covid than a random selection of the population.
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Post by scouse on Jul 27, 2021 10:42:02 GMT
Mrs Scouse has just been pinged by test & trace due to being in 'close contact' to someone who has tested positive for covid 5 days ago and now has to self-isolate until 31st July. Just one major problems with this: on Thursday 22nd Juy she DIDN'T LEAVE THE FUCKING HOUSE ALL DAY, it being her fist day off since school finished.
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Post by garry on Jul 27, 2021 13:52:36 GMT
Mrs Scouse has just been pinged by test & trace due to being in 'close contact' to someone who has tested positive for covid 5 days ago and now has to self-isolate until 31st July. Just one major problems with this: on Thursday 22nd Juy she DIDN'T LEAVE THE FUCKING HOUSE ALL DAY, it being her fist day off since school finished. Have you got any near neighbours? Bluetooth is a fantastically bad technology to use as a proximity sensor. You can get over 40 metres in direct line of sight and struggle to get 2 metres sometimes. So Mrs Scouse could have been pinged because someone walked slowly past your house. Her choice, but a ping is only advisory.
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Post by michael on Jul 28, 2021 8:01:37 GMT
Does anyone check mrs scouse even has the app on her phone? If not I’d be making some space on the phone.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 28, 2021 8:27:45 GMT
Mrs Scouse has just been pinged by test & trace due to being in 'close contact' to someone who has tested positive for covid 5 days ago and now has to self-isolate until 31st July. Just one major problems with this: on Thursday 22nd Juy she DIDN'T LEAVE THE FUCKING HOUSE ALL DAY, it being her fist day off since school finished. Have you got any near neighbours? Bluetooth is a fantastically bad technology to use as a proximity sensor. You can get over 40 metres in direct line of sight and struggle to get 2 metres sometimes. So Mrs Scouse could have been pinged because someone walked slowly past your house. Her choice, but a ping is only advisory. Yes, my mate got pinged twice as he lived in a townhouse and his phone's bluetooth picked up the neighbour's through the party wall. He had isolated for 6 days before he spoke to his neighbour and they realised what had happened.
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Post by scouse on Jul 28, 2021 10:14:28 GMT
Mrs Scouse has just been pinged by test & trace due to being in 'close contact' to someone who has tested positive for covid 5 days ago and now has to self-isolate until 31st July. Just one major problems with this: on Thursday 22nd Juy she DIDN'T LEAVE THE FUCKING HOUSE ALL DAY, it being her fist day off since school finished. Have you got any near neighbours? Bluetooth is a fantastically bad technology to use as a proximity sensor. You can get over 40 metres in direct line of sight and struggle to get 2 metres sometimes. So Mrs Scouse could have been pinged because someone walked slowly past your house. Her choice, but a ping is only advisory. My only neighbours are my parents (until the new tenants move into No.3). The main road does go past the end of my garden, so maybe someone walking the other side of the wall might have been the ping. Bloody farce either way.
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Post by scouse on Jul 28, 2021 10:17:29 GMT
Does anyone check mrs scouse even has the app on her phone? If not I’d be making some space on the phone. That's what I said, however (tinfoil hat time) who knows whether deleting the app *actually* deletes the app completely? I told her to use my old phone and the sim out of her ipad if she wants to go out, but as Garry said, it's advisory, so unless she gets the phone call telling her to stay inside, then they can get fucked.
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Post by michael on Jul 28, 2021 10:19:56 GMT
When I delelted it from my iPhone I got a notification that the exposure alert function was no longer operational. Either delete or do what the MP's do and turn off Bluetooth.
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