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Post by racingteatray on Jul 13, 2021 13:45:36 GMT
Starmer does appear to be incapable of doing any sort of job of keeping the Tories honest. Again why I thought they should have picked Emily Thornberry (not because I like or agree with her, but she'd have given Boris regular duffings-up with gusto and panache, which is surely what an opposition leader is supposed to do).
Whether Boris is the best the Tories have to offer is up for debate. Either way a sorry state of affairs.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 13, 2021 13:51:10 GMT
I haven't been to a shop in the last week or so but a friend who has said that in Halfords only about 50% of people were now wearing a mask. No matter the rights or wrongs of the restrictions the Government have, again, made a complete mess of the message. Hancock should be banned from politics forever for his part in this but allowing a bunch of overseas footie officials in for the final with no adherence to our current rules (again, whether right or wrong) together with filling stadia with people have clearly tipped a lot of folk over the edge into completely ignoring the rules in place. Do people really care about VIPs attending football matches? Life has never been fair so why get bothered about what others are doing. It seems a very UK thing to get upset about. I believe the trend for not wearing masks and a general relaxing of following the rules is down to those with the double dose thinking they're now immune mixed with those that never gave a toss in the first place.
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Post by Tim on Jul 13, 2021 13:57:50 GMT
I haven't been to a shop in the last week or so but a friend who has said that in Halfords only about 50% of people were now wearing a mask. No matter the rights or wrongs of the restrictions the Government have, again, made a complete mess of the message. Hancock should be banned from politics forever for his part in this but allowing a bunch of overseas footie officials in for the final with no adherence to our current rules (again, whether right or wrong) together with filling stadia with people have clearly tipped a lot of folk over the edge into completely ignoring the rules in place. Do people really care about VIPs attending football matches? Life has never been fair so why get bothered about what others are doing. It seems a very UK thing to get upset about. I believe the trend for not wearing masks and a general relaxing of following the rules is down to those with the double dose thinking they're now immune mixed with those that never gave a toss in the first place. I agree they shouldn't but if you've been told to obey a set of rules then find out a bunch of people were allowed to ignore those rules over the (in this case literal) threat of taking their ball away then you're naturally going to think "fuck it, if they don't have to abide by the rules then why should I?". See also D Cummings, M Hancock, etc......
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 13, 2021 14:00:25 GMT
Twice in two days last week I met a person who deliberately hadn't been vaccinated. The first was a painter/decorator who came around to discuss doing some work on our house and who turned out to be a full-blown conspiracy theorist of the first degree, and he was deep in 5G territory. The second was the Uber driver who took us home from Wembley who said he hadn't been vaccinated because he was scared of the vaccine. That's two out of the three new people I met last week with whom the topic came up. Probably coincidental but still.
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Post by michael on Jul 13, 2021 14:04:51 GMT
I haven't met anyone recently who hasn't been vaccinated or is anti-vax. We're very lucky in this country that so many are willing and eager to get it.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 13, 2021 14:29:31 GMT
Twice in two days last week I met a person who deliberately hadn't been vaccinated. The first was a painter/decorator who came around to discuss doing some work on our house and who turned out to be a full-blown conspiracy theorist of the first degree, and he was deep in 5G territory. The second was the Uber driver who took us home from Wembley who said he hadn't been vaccinated because he was scared of the vaccine. That's two out of the three new people I met last week with whom the topic came up. Probably coincidental but still. I work with a grade A conspiracist who refuses to have the jab. No point trying to tell him any different. Is it something like less then 50% of 18 - 30 year olds have been vaccinated?
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 13, 2021 14:34:44 GMT
I haven't met anyone recently who hasn't been vaccinated or is anti-vax. We're very lucky in this country that so many are willing and eager to get it. Yes, probably. Italy seems to have a particular anti-vax problem. My wife gets extremely vexed about it - she worked for big pharma for 15yrs, including in budget planning for clinical trials, so she's fairly well-versed in the ins and outs of vaccine production and economics, and gives the conspiracy theorists zero shrift.
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Post by Tim on Jul 13, 2021 14:58:28 GMT
2 folk - both mid-40s females - at my work are not prepared to have the vaccine. I've only asked one of them about it and she is wary of long-term effects and for some reason thinks it'll impinge on her cycling (she is in a club and goes on long trips). I know the other one said her husband feels the same way and he works on an oil rig so nit sure how that works.
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Post by garry on Jul 13, 2021 16:09:06 GMT
I think it's completely rational for the under 30s to be very reluctant to get the vaccine. Covid presents a minute risk to them, their parents and grandparents are jabbed, and with the best will in the world no-one knows what the longer term impacts of the vaccine might be. My older kids are showing very little interest in getting to the front of the queue.
I also think it's completely irrational for the over 60s to refuse the vaccine. Covid presents a significant risk to them. A risk that far outweighs any vaccine concerns.
It's a greyscale for those in between. As a 53 yr old man in good health (and with no more plans to reproduce) I've had the vaccine but i wasn't pushing for it. I'd have been comfortable not having it. The 35 yr old me who hadn't had kids would have got right to the back of the queue.
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Post by michael on Jul 13, 2021 16:11:56 GMT
Vaccination isn't about helping yourself, it's about building herd immunity and therefore protecting the rest of society.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 13, 2021 16:14:20 GMT
Starmer does appear to be incapable of doing any sort of job of keeping the Tories honest. Again why I thought they should have picked Emily Thornberry (not because I like or agree with her, but she'd have given Boris regular duffings-up with gusto and panache, which is surely what an opposition leader is supposed to do). Whether Boris is the best the Tories have to offer is up for debate. Either way a sorry state of affairs. The Tories would love Emily Thornberry as Labour Leader as she's completely hopeless.
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Post by garry on Jul 13, 2021 16:33:08 GMT
Vaccination isn't about helping yourself, it's about building herd immunity and therefore protecting the rest of society. That sounds like you've just shat out the words from a PHE poster. And if that's how vaccines work then why is the Flu vaccine only targeted at the over 50's? And if you really want herd immunity then the quickest route to it would be to let the under 30s do what they're best at - sharing all their nasty little bugs with each other.
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Post by michael on Jul 13, 2021 16:53:50 GMT
Vaccination isn't about helping yourself, it's about building herd immunity and therefore protecting the rest of society. That sounds like you've just shat out the words from a PHE poster. And if that's how vaccines work then why is the Flu vaccine only targeted at the over 50's? And if you really want herd immunity then the quickest route to it would be to let the under 30s do what they're best at - sharing all their nasty little bugs with each other. And yet it remains true. Why don’t you explain how the vaccine works? Surely we’d have only needed to vaccinate the vulnerable by your logic. In terms of the flu, it isn't cost effective given that the usual strain of the flu (which is also a coronavirus) isn't as lethal as COVID-19. The UK does, however, try to vaccinate as many people as possible against the flu but we've seen the scale that an annual vaccine requires for such a vast portion of the population.
We do however vaccinate children and the entire population for measles with a vaccine that is not 100% effective (like all vaccines). The reason for this is the same herd immunity goal.
My cousin is a medic in Massachusetts. They're vaccinating the over twelve. We're likely going to have to do the same.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 13, 2021 17:41:07 GMT
Starmer does appear to be incapable of doing any sort of job of keeping the Tories honest. Again why I thought they should have picked Emily Thornberry (not because I like or agree with her, but she'd have given Boris regular duffings-up with gusto and panache, which is surely what an opposition leader is supposed to do). Whether Boris is the best the Tories have to offer is up for debate. Either way a sorry state of affairs. The Tories would love Emily Thornberry as Labour Leader as she's completely hopeless. It's horses for courses. Boris is arguably completely hopeless as PM but somehow he stumbles on. Primarily because he wasn't Jeremy Corbyn - I lost track at the last election on how many people said they were voting Tory with their noses held because they were too scared of Corbyn - it was a dominant theme in discussions in my office and among friends. I've seen Lady Nugee at the dispatch box the few times and didn't think her performance hopeless when it came to attacking the other side. Never said I agreed with her on anything else, nor indeed that I particularly wanted a Labour government - merely some more effective opposition to keep the government honest
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Post by michael on Jul 13, 2021 17:45:22 GMT
Labour's problems are far more significant than just their leader. One of their problems is they keep underestimating Boris Johnson.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 13, 2021 18:32:51 GMT
Labour's problems are far more significant than just their leader. One of their problems is they keep underestimating Boris Johnson. Much as I don’t like him it does make me chuckle that he keeps winning and the left just can’t get their heads round it.
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Post by garry on Jul 13, 2021 19:05:32 GMT
That sounds like you've just shat out the words from a PHE poster. And if that's how vaccines work then why is the Flu vaccine only targeted at the over 50's? And if you really want herd immunity then the quickest route to it would be to let the under 30s do what they're best at - sharing all their nasty little bugs with each other. And yet it remains true. Why don’t you explain how the vaccine works? Surely we’d have only needed to vaccinate the vulnerable by your logic. In terms of the flu, it isn't cost effective given that the usual strain of the flu (which is also a coronavirus) isn't as lethal as COVID-19. The UK does, however, try to vaccinate as many people as possible against the flu but we've seen the scale that an annual vaccine requires for such a vast portion of the population.
We do however vaccinate children and the entire population for measles with a vaccine that is not 100% effective (like all vaccines). The reason for this is the same herd immunity goal.
My cousin is a medic in Massachusetts. They're vaccinating the over twelve. We're likely going to have to do the same.
You do understand herd immunity don’t you? And that vaccines are only one route to it. We vaccinate kids against measles because it poses the biggest risk to them. We don’t vaccinate them against flu because it’s not dangerous for them. Of course we only need to vaccinate the vulnerable. The rest of the population have the capability to build immunity without medical intervention.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 13, 2021 19:37:20 GMT
Well they’ve relaxed the rules at the club, meaning I don’t need to book the gym, Turkish Baths, sauna etc There are still some reasonable social distance measures in place and some advice on behaviour. It will be interesting to see how the members behave.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 13, 2021 19:39:45 GMT
Well they’ve relaxed the rules at the club, meaning I don’t need to book the gym, Turkish Baths, sauna etc There are still some reasonable social distance measures in place and some advice on behaviour. It will be interesting to see how the members behave. Two weeks and you’ll all be back to running around naked, flicking each other with towels.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 13, 2021 19:45:42 GMT
Two weeks and you’ll all be back to running around naked, flicking each other with towels. If only. The non-nudity rules introduced to the Turkish Baths a couple of years ago are a source of irritation to many. A few whingers appeased at the expense of the health benefits of letting it all hang out. Had your dinner yet?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 13, 2021 19:58:16 GMT
Two weeks and you’ll all be back to running around naked, flicking each other with towels. If only. The non-nudity rules introduced to the Turkish Baths a couple of years ago are a source of irritation to many. A few whingers appeased at the expense of the health benefits of letting it all hang out. Had your dinner yet? Saveloy Tuesday has been postponed.
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Post by michael on Jul 13, 2021 20:03:54 GMT
And yet it remains true. Why don’t you explain how the vaccine works? Surely we’d have only needed to vaccinate the vulnerable by your logic. In terms of the flu, it isn't cost effective given that the usual strain of the flu (which is also a coronavirus) isn't as lethal as COVID-19. The UK does, however, try to vaccinate as many people as possible against the flu but we've seen the scale that an annual vaccine requires for such a vast portion of the population.
We do however vaccinate children and the entire population for measles with a vaccine that is not 100% effective (like all vaccines). The reason for this is the same herd immunity goal.
My cousin is a medic in Massachusetts. They're vaccinating the over twelve. We're likely going to have to do the same.
You do understand herd immunity don’t you? And that vaccines are only one route to it. We vaccinate kids against measles because it poses the biggest risk to them. We don’t vaccinate them against flu because it’s not dangerous for them. Of course we only need to vaccinate the vulnerable. The rest of the population have the capability to build immunity without medical intervention. Funnily enough I do understand herd immunity. The problem with your strategy of immunity through infection is that the risk isn’t shouldered exclusively by the young. Instead they remain vectors to transmit the virus and through whom more infectious mutations can evolve. Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity, the one that poses least risk to vulnerable groups and the one that poses least risk to the vaccination success so far.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 13, 2021 23:02:59 GMT
Labour's problems are far more significant than just their leader. One of their problems is they keep underestimating Boris Johnson. Much as I don’t like him it does make me chuckle that he keeps winning and the left just can’t get their heads round it. It's fairly easily explained by the fact that he's not particularly small "c" conservative. Most of this right-wing stuff is almost certainly just expeditious pandering to the ERG tendency who after all got him the job.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 14, 2021 6:33:37 GMT
Much as I don’t like him it does make me chuckle that he keeps winning and the left just can’t get their heads round it. It's fairly easily explained by the fact that he's not particularly small "c" conservative. Most of this right-wing stuff is almost certainly just expeditious pandering to the ERG tendency who after all got him the job. You do realise that most of the people who keep voting for and supporting Boris would have no idea what you're talking about?
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Post by garry on Jul 14, 2021 6:57:59 GMT
You do understand herd immunity don’t you? And that vaccines are only one route to it. We vaccinate kids against measles because it poses the biggest risk to them. We don’t vaccinate them against flu because it’s not dangerous for them. Of course we only need to vaccinate the vulnerable. The rest of the population have the capability to build immunity without medical intervention. Funnily enough I do understand herd immunity. The problem with your strategy of immunity through infection is that the risk isn’t shouldered exclusively by the young. Instead they remain vectors to transmit the virus and through whom more infectious mutations can evolve. Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity, the one that poses least risk to vulnerable groups and the one that poses least risk to the vaccination success so far. Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity. For the population? Probably. For the individual (when that individual is a healthy 20 something). Possibly not. Which takes me back to my start point - it’s completely logical for the under 30s to be reluctant. The argument of ‘do it for the greater good of the country’ is only effective if they believe there is a real risk. Many are simply bored about hearing about it, and have lost all fear of it and don’t see it as dangerous any more. Go look at the scenes from the European final last Sunday as an example.
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Post by michael on Jul 14, 2021 9:01:49 GMT
Funnily enough I do understand herd immunity. The problem with your strategy of immunity through infection is that the risk isn’t shouldered exclusively by the young. Instead they remain vectors to transmit the virus and through whom more infectious mutations can evolve. Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity, the one that poses least risk to vulnerable groups and the one that poses least risk to the vaccination success so far. Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity. For the population? Probably. For the individual (when that individual is a healthy 20 something). Possibly not. Which takes me back to my start point - it’s completely logical for the under 30s to be reluctant. The argument of ‘do it for the greater good of the country’ is only effective if they believe there is a real risk. Many are simply bored about hearing about it, and have lost all fear of it and don’t see it as dangerous any more. Go look at the scenes from the European final last Sunday as an example. Herd immunity is not about getting everyone vulnerable vaccinated. It’s about getting enough of the herd vaccinated to break transmission. What your describing is self care.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 14, 2021 9:05:13 GMT
Yes the measles one is a good example. After the MMR panic nonsense lots of kids were not getting measles vaccines but because a huge percentage of other kids had had one we didn’t see a huge uptick in measles and serious measles cases.
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Post by Tim on Jul 14, 2021 9:29:31 GMT
Yes the measles one is a good example. After the MMR panic nonsense lots of kids were not getting measles vaccines but because a huge percentage of other kids had had one we didn’t see a huge uptick in measles and serious measles cases. The MMR panic guy is still doing strong business in the US I believe
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Post by garry on Jul 14, 2021 9:37:37 GMT
Vaccination is the safest form of herd immunity. For the population? Probably. For the individual (when that individual is a healthy 20 something). Possibly not. Which takes me back to my start point - it’s completely logical for the under 30s to be reluctant. The argument of ‘do it for the greater good of the country’ is only effective if they believe there is a real risk. Many are simply bored about hearing about it, and have lost all fear of it and don’t see it as dangerous any more. Go look at the scenes from the European final last Sunday as an example. Herd immunity is not about getting everyone vulnerable vaccinated. It’s about getting enough of the herd vaccinated to break transmission. What your describing is self care. What I’m describing is normal human behaviour. When the vaccine first rolled out there weren’t queues full of people thinking “I’m doing this for queen and country” they were full of people shitting themselves that they’d die if they didn’t vaccinate. More recently they are full of people who are doing it in the hope that their life will return to normal if they comply. Herd immunity might be a desired outcome, but self care (or self interest) is what gets many people to the vaccine centre. Again, it’s back to original point about the under 30s being reluctant to take the vaccine. It’s a perfectly logical and understandable position.
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Post by michael on Jul 14, 2021 9:45:25 GMT
Herd immunity is not about getting everyone vulnerable vaccinated. It’s about getting enough of the herd vaccinated to break transmission. What your describing is self care. What I’m describing is normal human behaviour. When the vaccine first rolled out there weren’t queues full of people thinking “I’m doing this for queen and country” they were full of people shitting themselves that they’d die if they didn’t vaccinate. More recently they are full of people who are doing it in the hope that their life will return to normal if they comply. Herd immunity might be a desired outcome, but self care (or self interest) is what gets many people to the vaccine centre. Again, it’s back to original point about the under 30s being reluctant to take the vaccine. It’s a perfectly logical and understandable position. I'm in complete agreement that a large number of people do it to protect themselves but the goal of herd immunity vs. population vaccination is to break transmission and that's been the goal for as long as I can remember. I'm early 40s so still a low risk group but I got the vaccine because I have elderly family and want to reduce risk of transmission to them even though they're vaccinated because no vaccine is 100% effective.
As it happens under 30s don't seem to be that reluctant. They're largely coming forward and getting the vaccine without question which is good because even to them COVID presents more risk than a vaccine.
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