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Post by garry on Jan 19, 2021 8:17:55 GMT
Trumps last day in office today. Let's hope the Republicans have learnt their lesson. They have lost control of The House, The Senate and The Office of President. That's a pretty spectacular disaster over four years. And whatever we think of the riots etc, the result speaks well of the electoral process.
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Post by Tim on Jan 19, 2021 8:59:11 GMT
Except....
Listening to an American 'conservative' but Trump hater on R4 this morning he reminded that despite everything said about Trump he still polled the most votes of any Republican candidate and that there's a good chance that without Coronavirus Trump would've got re-elected.
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Post by ChrisM on Jan 19, 2021 9:02:27 GMT
.... and Trump does still seem to believe that he won the Election but fraudulent voting means that the official result is that he lost, but he won really
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Post by Boxer6 on Jan 19, 2021 9:03:42 GMT
Trumps last day in office today. Let's hope the Republicans have learnt their lesson. They have lost control of The House, The Senate and The Office of President. That's a pretty spectacular disaster over four years. And whatever we think of the riots etc, the result speaks well of the electoral process. Radio news reckoned he's planning over 100 pardons for various miscreants, not including himself! Apparently, he's been advised that to do so implies his own guilt .. .. ..
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Post by Tim on Jan 19, 2021 9:12:11 GMT
It'll be interesting to see which of his hideous family members he DOES pardon. My bets are Ivanka (referred to elsewhere as Incest Barbie ) and her unpleasant husband but possibly not his 2 vile eldest sons.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 19, 2021 9:36:32 GMT
Let's not forget that under Trump the USA has: - not entered into any new foreign wars - seen higher levels of employment than ever before (hence without COVID he would likely have been re-elected) - brokered a deal between Israel and Arab nations - Lowest ever unemployment insurance claims as a proportion of GDP and lowest unemployment rate in 50 years - Created 1.2 million manufacturing and construction jobs - DOW hit highest ever levels - Cut the middle class tax bill (these are the people that pay for the American way of life!) - Signed pro-American trade deals with Korea, China and Japan There's shit loads more that has happened under the Trump administration (see HERE - you'll like some and you won't like others but we're not Americans so what we think don't amount to a hill of beans) so in the most basic of terms he has actually made America for Americans which is what he said he'd do. His Presidency has been the most reviled around the world and with a large and vocal percentage of his electorate and will be remembered for this most undignified ending. If he'd sat back, looked at his accomplishments, promoted them more and done less of the US-politics method of dissing his opponent he'd either be returned for a second terms or remembered as a President that shook up the political hierarchy and achieved the things the POTUS is supposed to achieve. I'm no Trump fan and my views on US politics at Presidential level cannot possibly be published without the CIA taking a contract out on me but he's far from the worst president. How he got there, how crooked his presidency was (supposed) to have been is what needs to be looked at - not the man himself as his ego and style allowed the administration to do the work that needed to be done with the minimum interference. The GOP actually owe him big time.
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Post by Alex on Jan 19, 2021 10:00:06 GMT
In many ways he has shaken up the Western political establishment by bounding in as a non-politician who says what they like and to hell what anyone thinks about it. And Jeff's right to point out that he did get stuff done and did have some great economic results. Whether he did a Mourinho and won a cup with an already good team is of course a debatable point but no one else in the American political establishment had the balls to start talking to North Korea. So he definitely got things done which Obama is often criticised for not managing (although he is the president who caught and killed Bin Laden so he'll always be an American hero for that alone).
And in many ways if Trump got more votes in this election and still lost to Biden who got yet more votes still then at least it got Americans to the ballot boxes who previously might not have bothered.
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Post by johnc on Jan 19, 2021 12:39:58 GMT
He managed to polarise views which is why there was such a high turnout.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 19, 2021 14:12:13 GMT
He managed to polarise views which is why there was such a high turnout. Did he, or did the media drive that by highlighting the issues they knew would cause that polarisation? Reading that list of things that happened under the Trump administration it looks like there are a lot of things that either party would have been proud of, therefore a broader section of the US electorate would have been happier with the broad coverage of the enacted policies. By comparison, the UK social media is crammed with people who have the view that the Tory party is evil slime all of the time yet here we have a Tory party using taxpayers cash to pay the salary of millions of working families who are on furlough. If it was the Labour Party doing it you wouldn't be able to go out in the streets for the rivers of spunk ejaculated in delight by those same social media account holders. We've currently got Tory MPs arguing FOR an extension of the Universal Credit scheme FFS. In highlighting those differences that Trump has over the more liberal populace the media knows it's playing on his psyche, which then can't resist getting into a Twitter spat which then is used to highlight his polarising viewpoints on social media by the vociferous few that use it where in fact many policies are perfectly acceptable to all voters. Hence there was surprise (as there is in the UK if you ever follow Twitter on an Election night, possibly the greatest form of modern entertainment thus far devised) after an election where many social media types were shocked that the awful president wasn't defeated by a landslide. And that was really Trump's problem as POTUS: he was too personal about it too much of the time. Sure there are some elements which are "Trump" policies but he took the attacks on what are actually attacks on the administration as attacks on him as an individual and bit back. Despite my defence of the Trump single term in office his behaviour at election results time and speech in the run up to the breaching of security at Capitol Hill are unforgivable and for that he will be mainly remembered for bringing the global view of US democracy into disrepute when there was so much more to his time as POTUS.
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Post by PG on Jan 19, 2021 19:06:05 GMT
You've pretty much hit the pointed fixing device with the heavy blunt instrument there Jeff.
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Post by Stuntman on Jan 19, 2021 22:20:34 GMT
An interesting and timely analysis, Jeff. The Donald may be a spoiled bullying man-baby, but those changes that you listed all occurred during his presidency and are pretty much unequivocally positive. Would the UK parallel involve a dispassionate analysis of Thatcher, or is it still too soon to be objective about the narcissistic witch?
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Post by LandieMark on Jan 19, 2021 22:31:05 GMT
Our newly elected local Tory MP got told in no uncertain terms he wasn't welcome at the Durham Miners' Gala and that his safety couldn't be guaranteed if he did show up. Certain communuties up here will never let it go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2021 22:36:17 GMT
An interesting and timely analysis, Jeff. The Donald may be a spoiled bullying man-baby, but those changes that you listed all occurred during his presidency and are pretty much unequivocally positive. Would the UK parallel involve a dispassionate analysis of Thatcher, or is it still too soon to be objective about the narcissistic witch? Not even slightly. I say that while believing she was not ALL bad.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 19, 2021 22:47:40 GMT
Would the UK parallel involve a dispassionate analysis of Thatcher, or is it still too soon to be objective about the narcissistic witch? Interestingly a couple of years ago I was chatting to a Dutch friend of my mother's who is a retired business owner. This was during the yellow-hi-viz vest riots and there were other strikes. He said that France was the last major economy not to control the unions and he cited Thatcher as the PM that had done that in the UK, and said it had been the same scenario of discontent in Holland at the time with the same long term result of a more stable economy. Thatcher[ism] is probably the ultimate UK example of polarised politics but again it wasn't polarised by her, it was media led. It's been said here before (by Bob, a long time ago) that whoever was in power at the time would have had no option but to do the same but the media painted it as one sided. As it was the economy changed to more service-based but still kept various elements of manufacturing (notably a lot of high end stuff) and to this day have some very efficient car plants. We're just an expensive society so manufacturing couldn't be manpower based but unions were never going to accept that and mining at high cost vs. cheap Central European competition was pissing up a rope. As a guide to the polarisation of the local country media in politics: in much of the rest of Europe Thatcher is revered on a large scale. Our own local tribalisms don't help as Mark's post highlights. People are living a far higher standard of living but apparently it's still all shite.
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Post by johnc on Jan 20, 2021 8:23:10 GMT
I have to admit that at the time I thought Thatcher was right about the Unions - they had to be brought down more than a few pegs before they destroyed the country: the childhood memories of weeks of no electricity, no TV, no trains, no bin collections, no post, limited food supplies, factories on strike for months, businesses going bust etc etc My manager is from Yorkshire mining stock and he admits it was Scargill who killed the mines. He chose a fight he couldn't win for ideological reasons, destroying the lives of others but not his own by refusing to compromise. There is a hatred of Tories in Scotland too which as Jeff alludes too is probably the result of the press and PR creating "fake news" which twists the facts, emphasises the negative and creates divisions which become entrenched. I would not like to think what state we would have been in had Thatcher not done what had to be done. I think that later in her reign she began to lose direction a bit and should have supported some businesses and sectors instead of being so reliant on market forces doing it. Howdens in Glasgow are a case in point - they were world leaders in wind turbine technology but in the early to mid 80's ran into financial difficulties. The Govt wouldn't help them so they sold all their technology to the Danes who are now reaping the benefit and are world leaders.
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Post by Tim on Jan 20, 2021 9:09:48 GMT
A lot clearly has been achieved under Trump's presidency but there are a hell of a lot of negatives as well.
Unfortunately for him he's it appears all the negatives are in his name and he's clearly a perfect fall guy for the wider Republican movement - if there's any backlash they'll just point in his direction.
His activities of the last 2 1/2 months in particular have been pretty bad - well supported by the GOP until 6th January - but I feel as if they've also completely destroyed any hope he might've had of continued success (even if that was black belt level grifting which appears to have been his career to this point) post-presidency. He's really managed to shine a light on his methods and approach and while, at 74 it might not haunt him for too long I reckon it'll have had a massive effect on his childrens future. I'd particularly like to hear that Don Jnr is living under a bridge in 5 years time.....
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Post by ChrisM on Jan 20, 2021 9:55:34 GMT
Our newly elected local Tory MP got told in no uncertain terms he wasn't welcome at the Durham Miners' Gala and that his safety couldn't be guaranteed if he did show up. Certain communuties up here will never let it go. Do any of them own German cars ??
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Post by Tim on Jan 20, 2021 10:51:55 GMT
Stolen from somewhere else:-
As we count down, let’s remember Trump’s greatest moments as President:
1. That time he saved the lives of a million imaginary friends during the Bowling Green Massacre 2. When he fought so hard to find a cure for Windmill Cancer, a deadly disease that kills 0 Americans a year 3. When he learned about a deadly virus eventually named COVID back in January 2020 and decided to blatantly ignore it, telling people it would just disappear and making fun of people for taking it seriously. 400,000 people dead as of today. 4. Refused to condemn white supremacy 5. Refused to condemn any violence that was done in his honor 6. Incited an insurrection at the Capitol which led to 5 deaths and hundreds of arrests 7. Had a weird infatuation with water pressure 8. Refused to accept the results of a fair election and still won’t concede 9. Called himself the Chosen One 10. Tried to convince people there were airplanes during the Revolutionary War 11. Would take to Twitter to attack & bully anyone who dared to disagree with him 12. Loved hamberders & covfefe 13. Enjoyed a close relationships with dictators 14. Refused to acknowledge Puerto Rico was even part of the U.S. and provided aid by throwing paper towels at peoples heads 15. Said a black man murdered by cops would be proud of the country 16. Tear gassed citizens at a peaceful protest for a photo opp at a church 17. Pardoned criminals for crimes he’d be too afraid to go to prison for 18. Complained incessantly about how no President had been treated as badly as him while ignoring the fact that four past presidents were assassinated while in office 19. Refused to condemn Nazis 20. Played the victim and blamed others anytime something went wrong 21. Had a weird and creepy obsession with Obama 22. Called himself a stable genius&stared directly into an eclipse 23. Said people were in the streets attacking each other with cans of soup and tuna fish 24. Flat out refused to provide aid to any states that didn’t vote for him 25. Blamed California for our seasonal wildfires by telling us we needed to rake our forests 26. Told people that the cure for COVID was to inject yourself with bleach while shining a UV ray up your ass 27. Got COVID and told people to not let it affect their lives while ignoring the fact that most people do not have the same access to medical care that he does 28. Had a weird and creepy infatuation with Hunter Biden 29. Called fallen soldiers “suckers” and “losers” 30. Separated children from their parents at the border. Put the children in cages and subsequently lost their parents 31. That time he tried to buy Greenland 32. The only President in history to be impeached twice 33. The only living President to be banned from using any social media platform because he was using his platform to incite and violence 34. The time he humped an American flag 35. His weird train obsession 36. His endless hate rallies where he’d attack people who disagreed with him 37. Walked out of an interview with Lesley Stahl because she was mean to him. 38. Seemed to enjoy bullying reporters and seemed to especially enjoy attacking strong women who stood up to him 39. When he saw himself as Rambo 40. When countless musicians (both living and dead), television and movie creators had to ask Trump to stop using their stuff without permission 41. When he said Frederick Douglass was still alive 42. When asked about John McCain, he said he preferred soldiers who hadn’t been captured 43. When he threw a temper tantrum after being cut out of Home Alone 2 44. When he trashed Parasite for winning Best Picture at the Oscars because it wasn’t an American film 45. When he fat shamed one of his own supporters who he thought was heckling him 46. Kept trying to convince people he was the most healthiest man alive while only eating McDonald’s 47. His weird thing about Sharpies 48. When he pardoned Susan B. Anthony 49. When he took to Twitter to attack Gretchen Whitmer after she’d been the victim of a horrific kidnapping plot 50. When he attacked a mall for dropping Ivanka’s clothes 51. Trump said he had received a Michigan Man of the Year award. No such award exists. 52. Took to Twitter to make fun of then 16, 17 year old climate change activist Greta Thunberg by saying she had an anger management problem.
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Post by michael on Jan 20, 2021 11:00:43 GMT
That list doesn't further the argument against Trump.
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Post by Alex on Jan 20, 2021 11:19:13 GMT
Our newly elected local Tory MP got told in no uncertain terms he wasn't welcome at the Durham Miners' Gala and that his safety couldn't be guaranteed if he did show up. Certain communuties up here will never let it go. Do any of them own German cars ?? I heard once that the NUM is still going but quite a large proportion of the subs it receives are used to pay for the grace and favour apartment in the Barbican.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 20, 2021 11:25:25 GMT
That list does, however, highlight the imbalance of the view of his term. Those issues are largely insignificant to carrying out the duties of the office of POTUS and affect an insignificantly small number of people )I’ve already said the events at the Capitol are an exception). However reduced unemployment, rising stock markets due to that, trade deals with other manufacturing nations and a deal between Arabs and Jews are hugely significant and affect far more people but the media and commentary focus stays on the fact he eats McDonalds and has some points of view that are offensive to a select group of individuals.
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Post by michael on Jan 20, 2021 11:39:30 GMT
That list does, however, highlight the imbalance of the view of his term. Those issues are largely insignificant to carrying out the duties of the office of POTUS and affect an insignificantly small number of people )I’ve already said the events at the Capitol are an exception). However reduced unemployment, rising stock markets due to that, trade deals with other manufacturing nations and a deal between Arabs and Jews are hugely significant and affect far more people but the media and commentary focus stays on the fact he eats McDonalds and has some points of view that are offensive to a select group of individuals. I agree entirely.
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Post by Tim on Jan 20, 2021 11:50:17 GMT
I agree the list is not comprehensive and it includes some that are clearly for amusement.
It's fair to say that under Trump there was reduced unemployment (until recently) and rising stock markets but a lot of these trends were already there pre-2017 and result from policies put in place by the previous administration. Trump's activities against China will, in the shorter term, probably have a negative effect on the wealth of average Americans through higher tariffs. I thought at the beginning of the trade war with China that if people are used to going into somewhere and buying something made in China for $5 it doesn't translate that they'll be happy buying it for $15 just because it's now Made in America. Business is all about profit margins and I'm sure the tiniest minority of people will overlook a significant price saving to buy home produced stuff.
Also a strong stock market has little effect on what's in the pockets of average people until they retire and see how much/little their pension is worth.
Against that, yes under Trump's watch things might've improved in the Middle East and certainly someone needed to start to make a move on China. He's turned a blind eye to a lot of other things though. I think the relative resurgence of Russia is in a large part courtesy of Trump - his refusal to criticise (what, I wonder, is it that Putin has over him?) and his attacks on NATO.
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Post by michael on Jan 20, 2021 11:57:37 GMT
I think the resurgence of Russia is entirely down to Barrack Obama.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 20, 2021 11:59:07 GMT
I, on the other hand, put the resurgence of Russian aggression on the shoulders of the EU with its desire to push ever eastwards to (a) provide a bigger protective buffer for the major states of Germany and France and (b) to provide an ever growing source of cheap and reasonably educated labour, which would otherwise be providing Russian industry.
Trump said that he’d be pro-America and NATO is very pro-Europe. He did what he said he’d do. As to inheriting previous administration’s actions how long till we can stop using that same argument in the event there are problems with the Biden administration?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 20, 2021 12:24:25 GMT
I think Trump's greatest achievement is that he has revitalised the Republican Party and the right (I'm not saying "greatest" as any sort of celebration). Before Trump came along the Republican Party was thought to be on the way out - populated by older white people who were slowly dying out. Demographics were against them, in a few years white people would be in the minority and a younger, more diverse population would vote in a more liberal, Democratic America and it would move more towards a European social model. Trump has left office with 75 million highly engaged supporters, with large support among Asian Americans, Hispanics, Cuban Americans and even increased support among the black population.
On the surface you can look and think, with a Democratic President, control of Congress and the Senate, it's been a good election for the Democrats, but underneath Republicans have made significant gains in Congress, even in supposedly solid Democratic states like California. The Grandees of the GOP can look at their position with some satisfaction, it's likely they'll regain control of the Senate in 2 years time and could get very close to getting a majority in Congress if they continue in this vein. And of course Trump still exerts tremendous influence over the party - he could easily spend the next 4 years pointing at Biden , saying "I told you so", and be re elected in a landslide in 2024. He'll still be a cunt, though. Probably an even bigger one.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 20, 2021 12:30:22 GMT
I think the resurgence of Russia is entirely down to Barrack Obama. I'm sure VVP has nothing to do with it personally.
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Post by Tim on Jan 20, 2021 12:55:09 GMT
Trump said that he’d be pro-America and NATO is very pro-Europe. He did what he said he’d do. As to inheriting previous administration’s actions how long till we can stop using that same argument in the event there are problems with the Biden administration? Economic policy doesn't respond overnight. so while Trump kept it going, at least until Covid hit, he can't be given all the credit for it. Look at the graphs for their recovery post-financial crash. From memory it's a fairly straight line increase from about late 2009 all the way to 2017/18 when there were a couple of upward blips due to short-term measures such as the tax break and its effects. Similarly if Trump and/or Covid has managed to screw them then if its heading downwards it'll continue like that for a while no matter what Biden enacts on day 1. Agreed again though that Trump has done some of the things he said, even if some have been somewhat self-harming. He's certainly failed to Drain the Swamp or build much of a border wall. I bet the Mexicans are a bit unhappy about that latter point now since they're just over the border from some of the worst parts of white supremacist USA.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 20, 2021 17:08:15 GMT
Trump did show that you can aim for full employment and keep low interest rates without fuelling inflation, something that economists have said couldn’t be done.
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Post by Tim on Jan 20, 2021 17:17:08 GMT
We've all managed that though. Why? Is it still a hangover from 2009?
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