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Post by johnc on Sept 18, 2020 5:54:25 GMT
I reckon a lot of the unreliability is going to come from the fact that Tesla are new to car manufacture and don't have the depth of knowledge or experience of ICE manufacturers. There are also issues with things like electrically powered door handles which just add to the myriad of electrical gubbins which can go wrong especially when exposed to salted roads etc over many years. My first ever Tesla owning client now has a 992 Carrera S
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 18, 2020 7:58:25 GMT
Tesla's reliability seems shocking. The latest Which report places it second to bottom, above only perennial back marker Land Rover. I don't understand Land Rover's continued poor reliability. I always used to cut them slack because they went through the under investment of BL, then the ownerships of BMW and Ford, with differing engines and components being used from these parent companies, and ageing platforms. But they've been owned by TATA for 12 years now, all the models have been replaced with new ones, including new engines, surely they should be starting to make some progress up the reliability charts? Being less reliable than FIAT Chrysler should be a badge of shame. |
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Post by Martin on Sept 18, 2020 8:28:23 GMT
In this survey (cars up to 5 yeas old), the Tesla Model 3 is the most reliable Executive Car. I didn't go looking for it, just entered 'Reliability Survey' into Google and this was at the top and seemed relevant due to the 5 year cut off. www.whatcar.com/news/2020-what-car-reliability-survey-executive-cars/n20054The C Class and A4 are the least reliable. I had a quick look at Luxury SUVs and the FF RR gets a score of 85.4% (X5 is 89.9%, an A6 is only 70.6%) and I know they've got a lot better since the 2017 infotainment upgrade but I'm not saying anything else as I don't want to tempt fate! |
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Post by Tim on Sept 18, 2020 8:30:45 GMT
Tesla's reliability seems shocking. The latest Which report places it second to bottom, above only perennial back marker Land Rover. I don't understand Land Rover's continued poor reliability. I always used to cut them slack because they went through the under investment of BL, then the ownerships of BMW and Ford, with differing engines and components being used from these parent companies, and ageing platforms. But they've been owned by TATA for 12 years now, all the models have been replaced with new ones, including new engines, surely they should be starting to make some progress up the reliability charts? Being less reliable than FIAT Chrysler should be a badge of shame. Ooh moonboots time. It's a few years ago now but in German surveys in the early 2000s Fiat were one of the more reliable brands, certainly more so then the premium German ones. Anyway Tesla's breakdown rate being average is pretty poor, one of the advantages of electric power is a massive reduction in moving parts so the cars should, hopefully, rarely actually stop. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 18, 2020 8:46:40 GMT
I don't understand Land Rover's continued poor reliability. I always used to cut them slack because they went through the under investment of BL, then the ownerships of BMW and Ford, with differing engines and components being used from these parent companies, and ageing platforms. But they've been owned by TATA for 12 years now, all the models have been replaced with new ones, including new engines, surely they should be starting to make some progress up the reliability charts? Being less reliable than FIAT Chrysler should be a badge of shame. Ooh moonboots time. It's a few years ago now but in German surveys in the early 2000s Fiat were one of the more reliable brands, certainly more so then the premium German ones. Anyway Tesla's breakdown rate being average is pretty poor, one of the advantages of electric power is a massive reduction in moving parts so the cars should, hopefully, rarely actually stop. In the early 2000s Mrs Sacamano ran the warranty claims for both a FIAT/Alfa dealership and a VW/Audi one and I can assure you this was not the case. FIAT/Alfa were considerably more generous with their warranty acceptance though. |
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Post by johnc on Sept 18, 2020 9:00:04 GMT
My Boss is giving his pretty much fully loaded 530e company car to a colleague to switch to an electric car. It's because the boot is too small now he has 3 small kids for it to be used as family transport and the X Trail was fine when it was just his wife driving it, but it's a manual, 'completely gutless' and he hates driving it. So he wants to get her something better (XC90 is favourite) without it costing more per month, the zero tax bridges the gap. He's looking at an i-Pace, e-tron and Model 3. I was helping him spec them up earlier and it's reinforced my thinking about company cars as he's got a bigger allowance and can only get into an e-tron Sport, i-Pace S and Model 3 long range once you've added voodoo cruise which he sees as essential. We were amazed to see that Jaguar want £410 for heated seats on the S, which is even stranger when it gets a heated wheel as standard. He had to step down a trim level in the Audi to be able to add the options he wants, which means Pleather upholstery (which he thought he had in his BMW.....). The Tesla looked the best option to me, even before you start thinking about the charging network and he could add the full autonomous system (including the car coming to find you in a carpark and parking itself remotely....) and still come in on budget. Would he not be better with a new 530e estate. If he enjoys the toys he might not be happy with a poverty spec electric car. Or the X5 45e? We chose the HSE because it was much better value overall when you looked at adding extras to a lesser trim spec. The hybrids still carry a BIK charge but at 6% it might be a better overall fit. I know someone selling a 6 mth old Tesla 3 with performance pack because he just can't get on with the touchscreen! As he said, it's one thing selecting things when you are sitting still in the showroom and totally another when you are on a tricky A road in heavy traffic. He is buying an M2 Comp instead having come from an M3 before the Tesla! |
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Post by Tim on Sept 18, 2020 9:00:36 GMT
I'm just repeating something I read years ago.
I was surprised too.
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Post by Martin on Sept 18, 2020 9:39:45 GMT
My Boss is giving his pretty much fully loaded 530e company car to a colleague to switch to an electric car. It's because the boot is too small now he has 3 small kids for it to be used as family transport and the X Trail was fine when it was just his wife driving it, but it's a manual, 'completely gutless' and he hates driving it. So he wants to get her something better (XC90 is favourite) without it costing more per month, the zero tax bridges the gap. He's looking at an i-Pace, e-tron and Model 3. I was helping him spec them up earlier and it's reinforced my thinking about company cars as he's got a bigger allowance and can only get into an e-tron Sport, i-Pace S and Model 3 long range once you've added voodoo cruise which he sees as essential. We were amazed to see that Jaguar want £410 for heated seats on the S, which is even stranger when it gets a heated wheel as standard. He had to step down a trim level in the Audi to be able to add the options he wants, which means Pleather upholstery (which he thought he had in his BMW.....). The Tesla looked the best option to me, even before you start thinking about the charging network and he could add the full autonomous system (including the car coming to find you in a carpark and parking itself remotely....) and still come in on budget. Would he not be better with a new 530e estate. If he enjoys the toys he might not be happy with a poverty spec electric car. Or the X5 45e? We chose the HSE because it was much better value overall when you looked at adding extras to a lesser trim spec. The hybrids still carry a BIK charge but at 6% it might be a better overall fit. I know someone selling a 6 mth old Tesla 3 with performance pack because he just can't get on with the touchscreen! As he said, it's one thing selecting things when you are sitting still in the showroom and totally another when you are on a tricky A road in heavy traffic. He is buying an M2 Comp instead having come from an M3 before the Tesla! Our company car allowances aren't great (our UK MD has a 180hp Velour S), he wouldn't get into an X5. He's convinced himself that he'd be happier paying no company car tax this year and he wants a bigger family car, which wouldn't be possible based on his list. I wouldn't do it, I'd just opt out, but he's just bought a new house so he's trying to keep his overall car costs the same. |
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Post by Martin on Nov 3, 2020 19:24:55 GMT
I arrived at a site in MK at the same time as my colleague with the IPace today. He was grumbling that he only had 31 miles left (with home 130 miles miles away) and he’d been to 2 x chargers on the way in but couldn’t get either to work and didn’t have time to find another without being late for a meeting. He left at 3 to go and find a fast charger...... He’d driven down very gently, but the colder weather and needing the lights/wipers on had really killed his range. He’s getting frustrated with it, even more so as our boss keeps telling him how quick and easy his Tesla is to charge!
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Post by chipbutty on Nov 3, 2020 20:19:44 GMT
This is precisely why Tesla have so much of the market. It doesn't matter how good the " establishment " make their EVs, if you can't easily charge them and they struggle to give more than 180 miles of real world range, they are of little use to business users (or even someone who has to do a couple of long trips a month).
I really hope the UK & Europe get their act together and push for standardised, reliable and accessible fast charging.
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Post by PG on Nov 4, 2020 7:55:05 GMT
I saw an interesting comment the other day which was a response to all the people who say "EV's don't need 500 mile ranges. 250 miles is fine". It was as follows -
You shouldn't run below 10% and most batteries like to be charged to 80% for best life and use. So that 70% of maximum range is really the useable range.
But if you drive normally and want to do 85 leptons on the motorway, that'll use power 20% quicker.
And on a cold winters day, lights, heater, wipers, that'll be another 10% reduction in range.
Ok, the above might be a bit over-conservative, but that would give a 500 mile nominal range EV a "real" useable day to day range of 250 miles.
Totally agree the charging infrastructure. Every review about EV's, except for the Tesla ones, really seems to be an article about how they found charging it.
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Post by chipbutty on Nov 4, 2020 9:43:38 GMT
That's reasonable, but is surely based on the assumption you can home charge (and therefore start every day with a replenished battery), so anyone without a driveway is at a huge disadvantage (assuming they can fit a 7kw/h charger).
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Post by michael on Nov 4, 2020 10:05:40 GMT
There's a Tesla Model S I pass quite often that appears to be owned by someone with no off street parking. I assumed they charged it at work but the whole home working thing has got to be screwing that up. Then again at least with a Tesla they have access to decent charging infrastructure.
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2020 11:38:50 GMT
I arrived at a site in MK at the same time as my colleague with the IPace today. He was grumbling that he only had 31 miles left (with home 130 miles miles away) and he’d been to 2 x chargers on the way in but couldn’t get either to work and didn’t have time to find another without being late for a meeting. He left at 3 to go and find a fast charger...... He’d driven down very gently, but the colder weather and needing the lights/wipers on had really killed his range. He’s getting frustrated with it, even more so as our boss keeps telling him how quick and easy his Tesla is to charge! He can't have left home with a full battery. We are having no problems at all at the moment but I agree the longer trips need a bit more planning with the requirement to find a rapid charger for 45 minutes somewhere on the journey. The infrastructure isn't as good as it needs to be and as EV use increases it will need to get much better but I would have little issue driving from one end of the country to the other: I would just need to do a bit of old fashioned route planning. |
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2020 11:51:03 GMT
I arrived at a site in MK at the same time as my colleague with the IPace today. He was grumbling that he only had 31 miles left (with home 130 miles miles away) and he’d been to 2 x chargers on the way in but couldn’t get either to work and didn’t have time to find another without being late for a meeting. He left at 3 to go and find a fast charger...... He’d driven down very gently, but the colder weather and needing the lights/wipers on had really killed his range. He’s getting frustrated with it, even more so as our boss keeps telling him how quick and easy his Tesla is to charge! He can't have left home with a full battery. We are having no problems at all at the moment but I agree the longer trips need a bit more planning with the requirement to find a rapid charger for 45 minutes somewhere on the journey. The infrastructure isn't as good as it needs to be and as EV use increases it will need to get much better but I would have little issue driving from one end of the country to the other: I would just need to do a bit of old fashioned route planning. I assumed he did, as that would have been sensible! He said the range was heavily impacted by the temperature and the journey being nearly all motorway, I think the best he gets is 200 miles but not sure how brave he is. He travels quite a bit for his job and most round trip journeys will be over 200 miles, which is why it's getting frustrating. It's not too bad if you have to stop for 45 mins infrequently (assuming there is a convenient and available charger), but every day you travel for work....no thanks. |
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2020 11:52:17 GMT
I agree that if you were doing over 200 miles a day, that is not the car to have.
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2020 11:54:50 GMT
I agree that if you were doing over 200 miles a day, that is not the car to have. No, it's not. He was excited by the tax saving when it was offered by the lease company due to a delay in the delivery date of his new car (no cost to him despite it being well above his allowance), but he should really have stuck with his original order, a nicely specced 330e. |
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Post by Tim on Nov 4, 2020 12:33:47 GMT
So basically it's user error and failure to do some proper research.
How did such a dummy get into a position senior enough to qualify for an 80 grand company car?
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2020 12:38:00 GMT
So basically it's user error and failure to do some proper research. How did such a dummy get into a position senior enough to qualify for an 80 grand company car? He was pushed into a quick decision I think and liked the idea. Partly because of the tax but he's got a roof full of solar panels plus 2 x Tesla Batteries in the garage so an electric car fits in. For a bit of balance, he does really like the car, it's just the charging infrastructure that is causing some frustration. |
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Post by Tim on Nov 4, 2020 12:42:06 GMT
I was being a bit harsh.
I hope I would spend a bit longer thinking about it, given that usage profile, though.
He's clearly an early adopter.
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2020 15:16:09 GMT
What you need in all your depots Martin is at least one rapid charger and all his problems will disappear.
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Post by PG on Nov 4, 2020 17:44:06 GMT
What you need in all your depots Martin is at least one rapid charger and all his problems will disappear. Yes that is surely the answer. My old employer President (and 60% owner with her now deceased husband) bought a Tesla S in the US. Funnily enough, a couple of months later the company had some rapid chargers outside head office. Destination charging infrastructure is as important as motorway / stop off charging in my opinion. Maybe even more so. If you knew you could charge overnight at your hotel or at your office or site you are visiting, it would make everything much more doable. It would also save having to sit about drinking expensive coffee at Starbucks. |
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2020 17:52:38 GMT
What you need in all your depots Martin is at least one rapid charger and all his problems will disappear. Why? I don't have an electric car or Hybrid!  I'm opening a new depot in January which has 6 chargers, so that will be very popular for meetings and will start to look at putting them into other depots. First priority is to increase the electric hookups for the fridge trailers as that's more efficient/friendly to the environment and the next batch of new vehicles will have hybrid fridges which use a takeoff from the engine to power them and I've got some other innovation in the planning stages for a trial. Increasing the tax on red diesel is going to be very expensive, but on the plus side, it does make the business case for newer technology easier... |
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Post by michael on Nov 4, 2020 20:26:50 GMT
A friend of mine works for a housebuilder and he told me when colleagues get an electric car they have to install another plug for it. I assume that's some housebuilder federation/ self imposed rule rather than workplace law?
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2020 22:12:20 GMT
When you build new premises such as a warehouse, there are ratios of standard, disabled and electric parking spaces you have to have, but nothing that I’m aware of which applies retrospectively.
My BIL has bought a big old Victorian house that’s more recently been an NHS property and has converted it into his business premises. They’re now in the process of building a house alongside it and the planning permission came with a condition that they have to install and maintain an electric charging point. No idea why and they didn’t have to out one in when they did all the work on the business premises, which included improves access from the main road and extra parking spaces.
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Post by johnc on Sept 6, 2021 9:41:38 GMT
We are still learning how to squeeze the best out of the i-Pace in terms of range etc and normally on a longer journey we will use cruise control quite a bit and more recently we have been using the ECO button to add mileage. At the weekend I drove the i-Pace up to St Andrews loaded with "stuff" for my daughter's flat in halls. I followed her in her Mini most of the way so I was taking it relatively easily although always driving at or near the speed limit. I didn't use cruise control and I tried to maximise regeneration on downhill sections and not exploit the acceleration too often. The result was that we travelled 79 miles and only used 62 miles of range.
It has taken us a while but we are beginning to get to grips with how to drive an EV to best effect: the downside is that you have to leave your inner hooligan at home!
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Post by Martin on Sept 6, 2021 11:02:08 GMT
We are still learning how to squeeze the best out of the i-Pace in terms of range etc and normally on a longer journey we will use cruise control quite a bit and more recently we have been using the ECO button to add mileage. At the weekend I drove the i-Pace up to St Andrews loaded with "stuff" for my daughter's flat in halls. I followed her in her Mini most of the way so I was taking it relatively easily although always driving at or near the speed limit. I didn't use cruise control and I tried to maximise regeneration on downhill sections and not exploit the acceleration too often. The result was that we travelled 79 miles and only used 62 miles of range. It has taken us a while but we are beginning to get to grips with how to drive an EV to best effect: the downside is that you have to leave your inner hooligan at home!I can kind of see why some people would get pleasure from getting the most (range) out of their electric car and comparison of range and efficiency figures are what I hear the most from my Tesla driving colleagues....but it is dull, made worse by it being necessary to keep a close eye on those things. If they drove a petrol or diesel powered car the same way, most people would be really surprised at what they could achieve, probably just as much as they would be surprised by how little range they would have if they enjoyed the full performance of their electric car. It's interesting that cruise control is the most efficient way of running, as I've never had a car that was more economical when using cruise control. The 7 series in eco mode came the closest, as it would let the speed go over by a couple of mph downhill and drop a couple of mph going up the other side to maximise the efficiency and it would also 'coast' when the cruise was on in eco. My current car doesn't do either of those things, but it was more economical on holiday despite being loaded up with 5 people and their luggage (higher tyre pressures?), 34mpg on the way back from Harrogate. But that was a result not an objective! Having said all that, I do find the updates on living with electric interesting!  |
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