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Post by michael on May 20, 2020 14:51:07 GMT
I see the EU7 is limiting power per litre so engine displacement is set to increase. There has to come a point where common sense says the witch hunt against carbon is strangling business and economies to the point it'd make more sense to focus on other things - like home energy or construction.
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Post by Tim on May 20, 2020 14:58:52 GMT
Maybe the paltry drop in emissions over the lockdown will help them refocus?
I doubt it though, cars are too far down the 'bad, smelly things' road to recover.
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Post by racingteatray on May 20, 2020 16:36:23 GMT
One can't help feeling sometimes that these rules are deliberately confused in order to create future bear traps.
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Post by michael on May 20, 2020 16:56:02 GMT
The move is to reduce how much a car can rev, apparently. I've never understood why we're so keen to kill off so much industry at the alter of carbon reduction.
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Post by ChrisM on May 20, 2020 17:05:15 GMT
One can't help feeling sometimes that these rules are deliberately confused in order to create future bear traps. They're designed to keep the Eurocrats in jobs, as various people/bodies have to discuss and argue with them about what realistically should be in place |
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Post by racingteatray on May 20, 2020 18:33:59 GMT
The move is to reduce how much a car can rev, apparently. I've never understood why we're so keen to kill off so much industry at the alter of carbon reduction. It's worse than the F1 engine rules! |
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Post by Roadsterstu on May 20, 2020 19:10:53 GMT
Maybe the paltry drop in emissions over the lockdown will help them refocus? I doubt it though, cars are too far down the 'bad, smelly things' road to recover. The BBC made another point of mentioning on the radio 2 news this morning that road transport accounted for "most of the reductions". Selling the agenda... |
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Post by Roadsterstu on May 20, 2020 19:12:37 GMT
The move is to reduce how much a car can rev, apparently. I've never understood why we're so keen to kill off so much industry at the alter of carbon reduction. Diesel engines are lower revving. We could encourage diesel use. |
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Post by PG on May 20, 2020 21:12:20 GMT
The sites I've found that discuss what Euro 7 might encompass don't mention a bhp / litre limit. But what they do talk about is more real word testing. And we all know that a lower stressed, higher displacement engine is more economical in the real world than a super tuned small capacity CO2-test based engine. And that for lower emissions / ICE bans in cities, plug-in hybrids are necessary.
So a PHEV that has a small city based battery and a larger displacement, less tuned non-city engine does not sound all bad. But no doubt the green lobby will fuck that up somehow.
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Post by Roadrunner on May 20, 2020 22:15:35 GMT
If you want relatively low BHP per litre, just buy a 1919 3.6 litre Austin Twenty.
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Post by Tim on May 21, 2020 8:10:35 GMT
The sites I've found that discuss what Euro 7 might encompass don't mention a bhp / litre limit. But what they do talk about is more real word testing. And we all know that a lower stressed, higher displacement engine is more economical in the real world than a super tuned small capacity CO2-test based engine. And that for lower emissions / ICE bans in cities, plug-in hybrids are necessary. So a PHEV that has a small city based battery and a larger displacement, less tuned non-city engine does not sound all bad. But no doubt the green lobby will fuck that up somehow. I don't think PHEVs are the solution unless you can be sure people are actually going to plug them in, remember people are fundamentally lazy. Do you think more 'real world' testing will ever actually be representative? I can't see the bureaucrats going out there in a sub-1 litre shopping hatch or downsized 1 litre turbo Focus and kicking the shit out of it to measure emissions, I'm sure they'll still just do it on a test rig that emphasises the early change up. |
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Post by Martin on May 21, 2020 8:15:09 GMT
The sites I've found that discuss what Euro 7 might encompass don't mention a bhp / litre limit. But what they do talk about is more real word testing. And we all know that a lower stressed, higher displacement engine is more economical in the real world than a super tuned small capacity CO2-test based engine. And that for lower emissions / ICE bans in cities, plug-in hybrids are necessary. So a PHEV that has a small city based battery and a larger displacement, less tuned non-city engine does not sound all bad. But no doubt the green lobby will fuck that up somehow. I don't think PHEVs are the solution unless you can be sure people are actually going to plug them in, remember people are fundamentally lazy. Do you think more 'real world' testing will ever actually be representative? I can't see the bureaucrats going out there in a sub-1 litre shopping hatch or downsized 1 litre turbo Focus and kicking the shit out of it to measure emissions, I'm sure they'll still just do it on a test rig that emphasises the early change up. Most of my direct reports have a 530e now and only one plugs it in occasionally, the rest don’t bother. That’s mainly because of the way private mileage reimbursement works, as they would be reducing the cost of business miles at their own expense, but I bet it wouldn’t change that much if they were getting a ppm as it’s all about the big tax saving. |
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Post by scouse on May 21, 2020 9:25:21 GMT
I see the EU7 is limiting power per litre so engine displacement is set to increase. There has to come a point where common sense says the witch hunt against carbon is strangling business and economies to the point it'd make more sense to focus on other things - like home energy or construction.
Wasn't this the way road tax was worked out in Britian pre-war? Hence long-stroke, low rev engines that struggled to compete against against the continental manufacturers? |
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Post by PG on May 21, 2020 13:28:50 GMT
The sites I've found that discuss what Euro 7 might encompass don't mention a bhp / litre limit. But what they do talk about is more real word testing. And we all know that a lower stressed, higher displacement engine is more economical in the real world than a super tuned small capacity CO2-test based engine. And that for lower emissions / ICE bans in cities, plug-in hybrids are necessary. So a PHEV that has a small city based battery and a larger displacement, less tuned non-city engine does not sound all bad. But no doubt the green lobby will fuck that up somehow. I don't think PHEVs are the solution unless you can be sure people are actually going to plug them in, remember people are fundamentally lazy. Do you think more 'real world' testing will ever actually be representative? I can't see the bureaucrats going out there in a sub-1 litre shopping hatch or downsized 1 litre turbo Focus and kicking the shit out of it to measure emissions, I'm sure they'll still just do it on a test rig that emphasises the early change up. You are correct re PHEV's - they are a tax dodge. But if there is an ever tighter push for lower emissions, then PHEV's are the only short term non-BEV way to get there. And if ICE in cities gets banned then people will have to start plugging their PHEV's in. I expect any real test will always be in a lab, so hardly real-real world, but hopefully it'll be more realistic than the current lab tests. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 21, 2020 14:15:22 GMT
. And if ICE in cities gets banned then people will have to start plugging their electric bikes in. FYP - I think there is going to be an outright ban in cities on driving something as selfish as 4 seat personal transportation with only one occupant, whatever the motive power. |
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Post by Tim on May 21, 2020 14:24:19 GMT
I'm not sure how a PHEV would work in practice in a city if you were expected to plug it in. What if you didn't - the engine would run.
What if you'd travelled 20 or 30 miles to get there - the engine would run.
I don't see how any penalties could be imposed for using the ICE part of a PHEV in town unless it could be proved you hadn't actually plugged it in.
Beyond interrogating a suspect I think the only simple evidence would be if your charging cable was still in its wrapper.
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Post by Martin on May 21, 2020 14:30:52 GMT
I'm not sure how a PHEV would work in practice in a city if you were expected to plug it in. What if you didn't - the engine would run. What if you'd travelled 20 or 30 miles to get there - the engine would run. I don't see how any penalties could be imposed for using the ICE part of a PHEV in town unless it could be proved you hadn't actually plugged it in. Beyond interrogating a suspect I think the only simple evidence would be if your charging cable was still in its wrapper. I've only spent time in a 530e, but that doesn't let the battery go completely flat. There always seemed to be enough battery life for the engine to cut out when slowing to a stop, sitting stationary for a while and then moving along in very slow moving traffic. What did impress me was how well it switched between the two power sources, you really did have to concentrate to know what it was doing. |
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Post by Tim on May 21, 2020 14:35:48 GMT
I've only spent time in a 530e, but that doesn't let the battery go completely flat. There always seemed to be enough battery life for the engine to cut out when slowing to a stop, sitting stationary for a while and then moving along in very slow moving traffic. What did impress me was how well it switched between the two power sources, you really did have to concentrate to know what it was doing. The Mitsubishi Outlander I drove 6 (!) years ago was the same. It drove on electric alone apart from a full bore departure from a junction and the battery went down to about 10% before the engine kicked in and when you stopped so did the engine. Conversely a friend's had 2 Priuses and if we've gone outside to see them off I am certain that when they pull away the engine starts every time. |
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 20:55:56 GMT
My regular hybrid Ioniq runs on battery only below 20mph for a surprising distance, particularly in stop start traffic and when I drive into our housing estate the engine rarely ever cuts in between leaving the main road and getting to my drive 3 minutes later.
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Post by bryan on May 22, 2020 6:25:41 GMT
My Merc always starts off will battery and engine kicks in when needed, which is a bit of a worry after 5mikes on a stone cold engine, can also save battery for around town etc.
Currently doing man maths to justify additional cost of Evoque phev Vs XC40 or X1
With the right wheels it does 40miles on leccy and falls into 6% tax bracket but £52k when spec'd up 😲😳🤪
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Post by Big Blue on May 22, 2020 10:43:59 GMT
The issue is we're all of certain age (thereabouts) and as several of us are the parents of various kids we can probably see from them and their friends that car ownership / petrolheadedness is just not as important to them as it was for us at a young age. When they reach the stage where they MUST have a car it'll be to move kids / go and see parents / commute so however shit we see the powerplant used for those cars they won't (in the main) give a damn as that's not why they'll have a car.
ICE cars will be like horses: once the mainstay of transport now just a leisure activity and also used by pikeys (thanks to James May for the first part of the sentence).
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