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Post by racingteatray on May 12, 2020 22:41:15 GMT
On VE Day, my mother surprised my sister and me by WhatsApping us some fascinating old photos of her parents from the war.
I knew that her father had been a Squadron Leader in the RAF during WW2 and later a Wing Commander, and that her mother had been in the ATS (Auxiliary Territorial Service) but I didn't realise granny had actually been a Commander in the ATS. Apparently at one point she technically outranked my grandfather!
Mum also sent pics of grandpa's fighter plane which she had always thought was a Mustang (rather than the more typical Spitfire or Hurricane), but I took one look at it and doubted it was a Mustang (distinctive planes), and eventually after much googling I determined that it was a different American design used by the RAF called a Curtiss Tomahawk. I'll add a photo and perhaps one of you who is better informed than me can confirm.
My paternal grandfather was also a Commander in the Royal Navy having been commissioned in the mid-1930s. I cannot offhand remember the name of his ship but I have a framed print of it in the loft somewhere (it not being the sort of thing my wife was interested in having hanging on the wall).
This has made me make a mental note to get both my parents to tell me more about their parents and what they got up to.
How about you - do you know what your parents/grandparents/great-grandparents did during WW2?
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Post by Big Blue on May 12, 2020 23:17:41 GMT
Yep.
Mum: Born Dec 1940 in Cape Town. Likely only knew the war was on after it was over.
Dad: Born Jun 1939 in Birmingham. Spent the entire war in the city; earliest memory was in the shelter surrounded by all the women in the family, mainly smoking clay pipes. Didn't like Germans much at the time as they bombed his home city shitless; enjoyed trips to Germany as an adult.
Step-dad: Born Jan 1936 in Dulwich. Spent the entire war in London aside from just under a week: he and his brothers were evacuees but their mum couldn't stand it so just went and got them back home! His father was in munitions, having seen the onset of war, and avoided action.
Paternal grandfather: 1st Btn Devonshire Regiment (i.e. regular army) serving in India between the wars - Regimental Sgt Major; was recalled to service in the war but not with the Devs. My main knowledge is that he was placed on colonial training duties (typical RSM stuff) which involved telling tribal leaders that their men were due to be called up and bartering with them before taking the younger men away in trucks for training. After some had escaped camp and returned to their villages he made the decision to widen the catchment area to the extent that those that escaped wouldn't know where the fuck they were as travel wasn't really a tribal thing.
My Great Grandfather was also a SMaj in the Devonshires and saw action in the Boer War. As a close family we were lucky that birthdays fell such that they avoided action in the Great War and anything too nasty in WW2. My dad did 15 years before the mast in the '50s and 60s and I recall his tales as being the kind of thing one associates with the Navy Lark.
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Post by Boxer6 on May 13, 2020 6:28:24 GMT
My dad was 8 when the war broke out, but spent the entirety in London (Hillingdon I think, where he was born) as his dad was a Universal Miller to trade and not only was it a reserved occcupation, but he would not actually be permitted to enlist because such skills were in great demand. My papa would have been 35 when it all kicked off, so perhaps too old anyway? Not sure.
My mum was 5 and spent her war in Portishead, where most of my cousins still live. (All my mum's sisters are dead now, sadly, but one uncle is still going - just!).
My dad did his National Service with the Royal Engineers in Malaysia, but never really said much about it that I can recall.
So, not really very much from my immediate family in WWII.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 7:14:44 GMT
My folks were born during the war, and their fathers served (maternal in the army and paternal as RAF groundcrew) but both were too young for WW1 and too old for WW2 in terms of active service.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 7:24:34 GMT
My maternal grandfather came over from the emerald isle in about 1922 and went to work on the railways, being a bit old and a reserved occupation he remained doing that until 1958 but Clapham junction was quite a target for those hairy planes with black crosses and the area around was quite badly damaged. My paternal grandfather was in the merchant navy in the second and possibly the Royal navy for WWI but no way to be sure as no two people had the same answer. Convoys during WWII but no story's told. I had many uncles about but larger families were common and two of them were in the far east being guests of the Japanese, one of whom was at Singapore and resided in Changi. None of them left now but they did not talk about it so no story's there either. My dad did national service in Malaya and Kenya during the maumau rebelion.
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Post by johnc on May 13, 2020 8:21:33 GMT
My Dad was called up in 1944 but never saw action. He was a marksman and had to fire live machine gun rounds over the heads of Royal Marine Commandos during training somewhere near Fort William. I am sure he was in the Royal Scots and he recalled that his unit were mobilised to be sent out to Japan but they never left because the Americans dropped the nuclear bomb and that was the end of it. Two of my Great Uncles were doctors who spent the war in a Japanese prisoner of war camp after they elected to stay behind at Singapore to look after the wounded. They didn't like to talk about what they saw but they told my Dad that there was a young American soldier summarily beheaded in front of everyone because he had stolen a piece of bread. My Dad's best friend from his days pre war, we called Uncle Matt. He served in the merchant navy in the convoys to Russia. He was torpedoed twice and survived twice which was almost unheard of in the freezing waters but it traumatised him due to all the friends he lost and I am sure on one of the ships he was one of only two survivors. He didn't talk about it to anyone but my Dad knew all the stories which he was able to tell just after the war finished. My Dad's Dad died before the war and my Mum's Dad was an engineer whose job was considered essential to the war effort so he was never called up but dodged a few German bombs around Clydebank. My son is a Royal Marine Commando.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 8:53:14 GMT
Dad's dad was in Egypt, and had photos of the Sphinx being properly unearthed. No idea where they are, alas.
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2020 9:00:04 GMT
This is my maternal grandfather with and in his fighter, which as I say I think is a Curtiss Tomahawk: Mum has a painting hanging at home which someone did from that photo of the plane in flight, as well as a formal portrait of grandpa in uniform by Edward Seago, who among other things also created the St George & the Dragon radiator mascot that the Queen’s State limousine wears.
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2020 9:02:57 GMT
My Dad was 7 when the war started and due to living in rural Fife didn't see much, although he did remember a Spitfire flew into East Lomond. His Dad had been in the trenches in WW1 and was gassed, was clearly too old to serve in WW2 and was a miner anyway so a protected job.
Mum was born in 1941 in Newark so was in the middle of Bomber Country. She says she can remember the sound of them taking off and circling to gain height. Her Dad was too old for active service (born in 1911) and worked for Fisons going round the farms to advise on fertilisers, etc so, again a protected occupation. I think he was in the home guard or ARP though. My mum's maternal grandad served in WW1 and died fairly late in 1918 in a POW camp. J+He had been a baker - again protected - but had enlisted after receiving a number of white feathers. He's buried somewhere in E Germany.
Widening the net a little, my Dad's brother in law was in the merchant navy - a gunner on a tanker, so a high risk. As far as I know he never got sunk, I don't know if he ever fired his guns but he did have a small box with a variety of medals in it. As with many others he barely spoke about it beyond showing my cousin and me his medals when we were about 8.
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2020 9:06:02 GMT
This is my maternal grandfather with and in his fighter, which as I say I think is a Curtiss Tomahawk: Mum has a painting hanging at home which someone did from that photo of the plane in flight, as well as a formal portrait of grandpa in uniform by Edward Seago, who among other things also created the St George & the Dragon radiator mascot that the Queen’s State limousine wears. I think that's a Kittyhawk rather than a Tomahawk although the only visual difference between the 2 that I'm aware of is the extension of the glasshouse behind the pilot. I suspect one was an update of the other. I can understand why your mum thought of a Mustang - the plane in flight looks very similar to a Mk1 Mustang - before they got the bubble canopy
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2020 9:08:13 GMT
Interesting - it was the air-intake scoop under the nose that was unlike any photos I've seen of a Mustang, Spitfire or Hurricane.
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2020 9:16:21 GMT
Just looked it up. Tomahawk was the name given to the B and C variants and Kittyhawk for the later D. I know they were used extensively by the RAF in North Africa and the Far East.
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Post by garry on May 13, 2020 9:27:47 GMT
This is my maternal grandfather with and in his fighter, which as I say I think is a Curtiss Tomahawk: Mum has a painting hanging at home which someone did from that photo of the plane in flight, as well as a formal portrait of grandpa in uniform by Edward Seago, who among other things also created the St George & the Dragon radiator mascot that the Queen’s State limousine wears. Fantastic photograph. My parents and Grandparents were ww2 and ww1 war babies. The only war story I have (and it still makes me sad to this day) is that my grandmother never met her dad. He was killed in the trenches on Christmas day 1915.
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Post by michael on May 13, 2020 9:33:51 GMT
My parents were both born in the 50's so missed it. My maternal grandfather was a Marine and served all over the place so far as I can gather. My paternal grandfather lived in West Sussex when war broke out working as a chemist. He was one of the people the government moved out the South East and hid in the North refining his skills as he was particularly good at making things explode.
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Post by Blarno on May 13, 2020 9:45:19 GMT
My Grandad (My Mum's dad) was a pilot in the RAF, later became a tanker driver for Tate and Lyle, then ran a very successful driving school in Liverpool in the 60's and 70's. My othe Grandad would only have been 14/15 at the outbreak of WWII, so I'm not sure he was ever conscripted.
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2020 10:26:23 GMT
My parents and Grandparents were ww2 and ww1 war babies. The only war story I have (and it still makes me sad to this day) is that my grandmother never met her dad. He was killed in the trenches on Christmas day 1915. I'd forgotten this but my mum's mum was the same, it was her Dad who died in 1918, she was born in 1917.
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Post by Big Blue on May 13, 2020 10:41:18 GMT
This is my maternal grandfather with and in his fighter, which as I say I think is a Curtiss Tomahawk: Bloody hell Jonny - do doubting the gene lineage in your family! Spitting image in many respects!
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2020 10:46:13 GMT
My grandparents were all WW1 babies and my parents were WW2 babies (give or take - Dad was born in '44 and Mum was born in '46).
I know that my maternal grandmother's father was in the Canadian Expeditionary Forces during WW1 but I think my other three great-grandfathers did not serve in WW1 (and women didn't in those days). On my mother's side, her other grandfather was a solicitor who would have been 42 when WW1 broke out, so over the maximum age for conscription. On my father's side, his paternal grandfather was the headmaster of Sedbergh School during WW1 (teachers were exempt) and his maternal grandfather was senior partner in his family's refinery business, Carless, Capel & Leonard, so was presumably busy on other aspects of the war effort.
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2020 10:50:38 GMT
This is my maternal grandfather with and in his fighter, which as I say I think is a Curtiss Tomahawk: Bloody hell Jonny - do doubting the gene lineage in your family! Spitting image in many respects! Yes, indeed. The physical likeness is quite marked. The only substantial difference is that he held a double blue from Cambridge (I forget in what but Granny had pictures of him in a rugby team, presumably as a fly-half or scrum-half, as he wasn't a big man) and he was obsessed with sport, being an avid golfer, yachtsman, cricketer and skier, and I have neither talent nor interest in most sports.
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Post by alf on May 13, 2020 11:00:46 GMT
Great pictures! You don't hear much about people flying Tomahawks / Kittyhawks but they saw a lot of service away from Europe. There was a huge arms race for the western front air campaigns which saw a lot of high-altitude fighting against and protecting, bombers and these aircraft were no good at altitude thanks to the engine. Like the Hurricane they were strong and reliable and handled well, so were used a lot in West Africa and the far east.
The two pictures appear to me to be of different aircraft - the one in flight looks to have the later (P-40E) 3 guns per wing layout, and the yellow leading edge paint on the wing which is missing from the ground shot. The first one looks more like a P-40D (both were called "Kittyhawk" in UK service, the B and C models were "Tomahawk").
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 13, 2020 11:36:25 GMT
My maternal grandfather was born in 1916, his mother was 15 and unmarried so he was farmed out to the wider family. His mother subsequently married and moved to London where she stayed with her new family for the rest of her life. It was either the mines or the navy for him so he joined the Royal Navy in 1933 and rose to Petty Officer, serving most of the war on HMS Vivien (I've mentioned before my mum was named after this ship). He served mostly in Coastal Command and first but did serve in the Arctic (he said his dufflecoat froze solid and would stand up by itself when he came off duty) and was part of the force that rescued Emperor Haile Selassie from Ethiopia when the Italians invaded. He left the navy after the war and re-trained as a bricklayer. My paternal Grandfather was in the Territorial Army before the war and tried to join up in 1940 but was refused as he was already married with a family and as a boilermaker was considered too valuable to lose. He was presented with a letter demanding he start work at Swan Hunter's shipyard on pain of a fine of £100 if he didn't. His younger brother David was 19 and joined the Black Watch (1st Tyneside Scottish) in Jan 1940 and was sent to France in April. He was killed (along with over 100 other) on 20th May having been left as part of the rearguard to defend the retreat to Dunkirk. He is buried in Fichaux and his name is recorded in the book of remembrance at Edinburgh Castle. Another brother Arthur was killed on the Arctic convoys, delivering tanks to Russia, and his oldest brother survived the war in army. A few years ago I found an account of their defence against a German armoured column, with nothing but light weapons: 70brigade.newmp.org.uk/wiki/Narrative_of_1st_Tyneside_Scottish_Black_Watch_17_-_20_May_1940
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 13:04:40 GMT
The only member of my family left who is old nenough is my great uncle Alf but he now has Alzheimer's unfortunately. We went to see him a while back and it was hilarious in a very non PC way. He told me how he used to shoot wogs in the war. His daughter said "Dad! You can't say that." and he replied "Why not? I did shoot wogs"
I had him take me upstairs to show me his war memorabilia and it transpired that said black fellas were PoWs and his commanding officer told him to just get rid of them. He was obviously remembering it exactly has it happened and relating it thus.
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Post by PG on May 13, 2020 13:35:22 GMT
My parents were both too young to be called up for WW2. My dad did National Service as a lieutenant in the Royal Signals - also in Kenya during the Mau Mau rebellion. My maternal grandfather fought in WW1 in the Royal Artillery. He won the Military Medal - which I have here at home along with his other medals - but he never talked about his time in the war and I regret that he died when I was too young to really know him as an adult. My paternal grandfather was too young for WW1 (just) and too old for WW2.
My dad had uncles that served either in or just after WW2 (not quite sure), one in the merchant navy and one the army who later went on to work on the early UK rocket programmes and was killed in an accident on the Woomera rocket range in Australia.
Re the Kittyhawk / Tomahawk plane discussion, the P40-D Kittyhawks had larger front air intakes. I agree with James that the photos are of different planes and both are earlier variants (according to wikipedia) that were known as Tomahawks in UK service. The two machine guns per wing is a P-40 or P-40B and the three machine guns per wing is a P40-C.
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Post by PG on May 13, 2020 13:36:45 GMT
... His younger brother David was 19 and joined the Black Watch (1st Tyneside Scottish) in Jan 1940 and was sent to France in April. He was killed (along with over 100 other) on 20th May having been left as part of the rearguard to defend the retreat to Dunkirk. He is buried in Fichaux and his name is recorded in the book of remembrance at Edinburgh Castle. Another brother Arthur was killed on the Arctic convoys, delivering tanks to Russia, and his oldest brother survived the war in army. A few years ago I found an account of their defence against a German armoured column, with nothing but light weapons: 70brigade.newmp.org.uk/wiki/Narrative_of_1st_Tyneside_Scottish_Black_Watch_17_-_20_May_1940 Heroic stuff indeed. Very brave men.
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2020 13:42:03 GMT
Just remembered the one living relative who fought - my Aunt's stepfather was in the army and went ashore on D-Day. He has never spoken about it and as far as I know has never attended any of the commemorations.
The same aunt's father was a Lancaster bomber pilot and later an airline pilot. He would've led the testing and introduction into service of Concorde if he hadn't previously sullied his reputation by running off with an air hostess - something frowned upon in those days.
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Post by scouse on May 13, 2020 14:24:57 GMT
Paternal Grandad served in the RN on the Atlantic convoys - wouldn't talk about it having told my dad that having to leave men in the water when the U-boats were about was horrible. He was then on the transports taking the colonial troops back home to South Africa/Australia/New Zealand and told about men throwing themselves overboard having gambles away their demob money.
Maternal Grandad served in the desert. Ran over a mine in the pursuit of Rommel and spent three days besides the remnants of his M3 Lee before being rescued. Once he recovered they sent him to Burma.
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Post by alf on May 13, 2020 14:49:44 GMT
My maternal grandfather was born in 1916, his mother was 15 and unmarried so he was farmed out to the wider family. His mother subsequently married and moved to London where she stayed with her new family for the rest of her life. It was either the mines or the navy for him so he joined the Royal Navy in 1933 and rose to Petty Officer, serving most of the war on HMS Vivien (I've mentioned before my mum was named after this ship). He served mostly in Coastal Command and first but did serve in the Arctic (he said his dufflecoat froze solid and would stand up by itself when he came off duty) and was part of the force that rescued Emperor Haile Selassie from Ethiopia when the Italians invaded. He left the navy after the war and re-trained as a bricklayer. My paternal Grandfather was in the Territorial Army before the war and tried to join up in 1940 but was refused as he was already married with a family and as a boilermaker was considered too valuable to lose. He was presented with a letter demanding he start work at Swan Hunter's shipyard on pain of a fine of £100 if he didn't. His younger brother David was 19 and joined the Black Watch (1st Tyneside Scottish) in Jan 1940 and was sent to France in April. He was killed (along with over 100 other) on 20th May having been left as part of the rearguard to defend the retreat to Dunkirk. He is buried in Fichaux and his name is recorded in the book of remembrance at Edinburgh Castle. Another brother Arthur was killed on the Arctic convoys, delivering tanks to Russia, and his oldest brother survived the war in army. A few years ago I found an account of their defence against a German armoured column, with nothing but light weapons: 70brigade.newmp.org.uk/wiki/Narrative_of_1st_Tyneside_Scottish_Black_Watch_17_-_20_May_1940Great stuff - Dunkirk would not have been the relative success it was without heroic efforts like these from the BEF, which was a professional army, albeit fighting with outdated tactics and equipment. There were also instances of British tanks and aircraft destroying German columns, plus some successful counter-attacks that led the Germans to think the Dunkirk area was more heavily defended that it was...
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Post by racingteatray on May 13, 2020 15:00:38 GMT
Great pictures! You don't hear much about people flying Tomahawks / Kittyhawks but they saw a lot of service away from Europe. There was a huge arms race for the western front air campaigns which saw a lot of high-altitude fighting against and protecting, bombers and these aircraft were no good at altitude thanks to the engine. Like the Hurricane they were strong and reliable and handled well, so were used a lot in West Africa and the far east. The two pictures appear to me to be of different aircraft - the one in flight looks to have the later (P-40E) 3 guns per wing layout, and the yellow leading edge paint on the wing which is missing from the ground shot. The first one looks more like a P-40D (both were called "Kittyhawk" in UK service, the B and C models were "Tomahawk"). My grandfather was stationed in the UK during WW2 at Netheravon as part of No.38 Group - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._38_Group_RAF. At one point, during the battle of Arnhem in 1944 (19 September), my grandmother received a telegram to say that her husband was missing in action after the Stirling bomber LJ939 he was a returning to England in as a passenger was shot down over Oosterbeek. In fact he'd managed to parachute safely out, only to find himself in the middle of the battle of Arnhem but eventually managed to be evacuated to safety.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2020 15:09:40 GMT
^ Talk about frying pan and fire there....
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Post by ChrisM on May 13, 2020 17:02:53 GMT
My dad's family lived in/around Kensal Rise London NW, so he had been evacuated to Epsom. Mum was in the Far East, born in Malaya before it gained independence and became Malaysia so she was/is British.... but her family were in Singapore.... she's now one of the last living survivors of Changi Prison of War Camp so is more "Looking forward" to VJ Day in August, than VE Day. She's mentioned in the book "Diary of a Girl in Changi" www.amazon.co.uk/Diary-Girl-Changi-Sheila-Allan/dp/0731812425en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diary_of_a_Girl_in_ChangiSheila Bruhn, now Sheila Allan, is a friend of my mum's from that time. When she came over to the UK in 200 (she lives in Australia) to present the Changi "Girl Guides Blanket" to the Imperial War Museum she visited mum and brought with her a signed copy of the book dedicated to my mum's sister who sadly died the day she phoned to say she had arrived in the UK.
Photo is of Sheila Allan in the red top, and mum in her lounge, with the famed blanket
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