|
|
Post by garry on Jun 15, 2020 12:21:44 GMT
I've been looking at a few non Tesla electric vehicles for my wife, to replace the X4 (she dislikes the look of a Tesla 3 big time). Since she works full time for me I could provide it through the business with certain tax advantages. However it would appear that the leasing costs of electric cars have gone mad. An i-Pace or an E-Tron are over £800/mth (potentially £1,000 for the E-Tron) and the new Ford Mustang E-Mach isn't that far behind them. There are advertised deals that appear cheaper but the reality is the vehicles are not available or are much more expensive. It might need to be another X4! Those numbers are mad! When I looked, a decent spec i-pace was something like £700 per month. Even with the tax benefits that was not worth it to me. The etron was under £400 per month. Are all lease prices high? Is it a supply issue? |
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 15, 2020 12:27:31 GMT
In the last couple of weeks, 1 client has picked up a Tesla X and 2 have picked up Tesla 3's and one should be getting his Taycan at the end of this week - the tax benefits are starting to shape demand. How long until the tax situation changes and there's suddenly a glut of used versions on the market? |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 15, 2020 16:17:58 GMT
I've been looking at a few non Tesla electric vehicles for my wife, to replace the X4 (she dislikes the look of a Tesla 3 big time). Since she works full time for me I could provide it through the business with certain tax advantages. However it would appear that the leasing costs of electric cars have gone mad. An i-Pace or an E-Tron are over £800/mth (potentially £1,000 for the E-Tron) and the new Ford Mustang E-Mach isn't that far behind them. There are advertised deals that appear cheaper but the reality is the vehicles are not available or are much more expensive. It might need to be another X4! Those numbers are mad! When I looked, a decent spec i-pace was something like £700 per month. Even with the tax benefits that was not worth it to me. The etron was under £400 per month. Are all lease prices high? Is it a supply issue? Local dealer was only interested in "What is your budget Sir" to which he got my stock reply which is "the same as your best price" I have a couple of online leasing companies who are going to provide a quote but I think they are going to be high since the conversation was filled with weasel words and talk about how popular electric cars are and supply is limited etc etc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 17:57:44 GMT
"What is your budget Sir".
A pet hate of mine seeing as it is always (n my experience) where they START their push for more, like body repair/restoration companies. I suggested to the last oiks doing that, "How can I declare a budget until I know what is required"? The reply was that the budget defined the level of their interest and I doubt they liked my reply that they simply wanted to see how many noughts they could stack into the "Budget".
|
|
|
|
Post by garry on Jun 16, 2020 9:51:22 GMT
Those numbers are mad! When I looked, a decent spec i-pace was something like £700 per month. Even with the tax benefits that was not worth it to me. The etron was under £400 per month. Are all lease prices high? Is it a supply issue? Local dealer was only interested in "What is your budget Sir" to which he got my stock reply which is "the same as your best price" I have a couple of online leasing companies who are going to provide a quote but I think they are going to be high since the conversation was filled with weasel words and talk about how popular electric cars are and supply is limited etc etc. I’m on an unspecified delay - the Etron was due to arrive in July. I guess there could be a supply issue which will keep prices high if you’re trying to lease now. |
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Jun 16, 2020 10:44:34 GMT
Local dealer was only interested in "What is your budget Sir" to which he got my stock reply which is "the same as your best price" I have a couple of online leasing companies who are going to provide a quote but I think they are going to be high since the conversation was filled with weasel words and talk about how popular electric cars are and supply is limited etc etc. I’m on an unspecified delay - the Etron was due to arrive in July. I guess there could be a supply issue which will keep prices high if you’re trying to lease now. Not only you. Last June my father ordered a new Q5 hybrid to replace his current SQ5 and he still hasn't received it. |
|
|
|
Post by PG on Jun 16, 2020 12:46:42 GMT
Would it not make sense to run a Tesla Model 3 under your business.... Totally makes sense to run an electric vehicle through the business which is what I would do but the wife doesn't like the Tesla 3 at all so that's not going to happen. She does like the i-Pace but if it is going to be £900 less tax and NI relief of 43% that still makes it £513/mth net which is a bit more than I want to pay... I may be missing something, but as you're a partnership / self employed for tax, should you not be claiming as a tax deduction only the percentage of costs that relate to business use? Which must be less than 100%. |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 16, 2020 16:27:01 GMT
Totally makes sense to run an electric vehicle through the business which is what I would do but the wife doesn't like the Tesla 3 at all so that's not going to happen. She does like the i-Pace but if it is going to be £900 less tax and NI relief of 43% that still makes it £513/mth net which is a bit more than I want to pay... I may be missing something, but as you're a partnership / self employed for tax, should you not be claiming as a tax deduction only the percentage of costs that relate to business use? Which must be less than 100%. I only claim the business percentage for my car. However a car for an employee is 100% business and the private side of it is dealt with through the benefit in kind which for electric cars is nil for this year. |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 16, 2020 16:31:48 GMT
I have just had a quote for an i-Pace HSE which is £4,500 + VAT down and £500 + VAT/mth for 3 years with 8,000 miles.
I will only be able to recover half the VAT but it will effectively cost me 57% of the cost after recovery of half the VAT.
|
|
|
|
Post by PG on Jun 16, 2020 20:24:13 GMT
I may be missing something, but as you're a partnership / self employed for tax, should you not be claiming as a tax deduction only the percentage of costs that relate to business use? Which must be less than 100%. I only claim the business percentage for my car. However a car for an employee is 100% business and the private side of it is dealt with through the benefit in kind which for electric cars is nil for this year. Ah, so your wife is an employee. Sounds like an electric is a no brainer then. Get that i-Pace ordered. |
|
|
|
Post by garry on Jun 17, 2020 10:33:10 GMT
I may be missing something, but as you're a partnership / self employed for tax, should you not be claiming as a tax deduction only the percentage of costs that relate to business use? Which must be less than 100%. I only claim the business percentage for my car. However a car for an employee is 100% business and the private side of it is dealt with through the benefit in kind which for electric cars is nil for this year. I know something to sort with my accountant, but am in the right direction: Audi Etron will be leased by my business my partner will run it as her company car she is an employee of the business business will pay lease costs and claim half vat back My partner is responsible for benefit in kind (0%) Im not ‘employed’ by my business, I get remunerated in dividends. if the Audi is mine then the cost savings are not the same if I was employed by my business (as in paye) it would make no difference if it was mine or hers |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 17, 2020 13:02:58 GMT
Garry I will PM you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 17, 2020 13:17:50 GMT
I was just looking at a couple of used BMWs and the finance rates on them are 10.9% for both PCP and HP.
That doesn't seem very good, I'm sure HP was down around 4.5% a few weeks ago.
|
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Jun 17, 2020 13:23:13 GMT
I was just looking at a couple of used BMWs and the finance rates on them are 10.9% for both PCP and HP. That doesn't seem very good, I'm sure HP was down around 4.5% a few weeks ago. My recollection is that in general BMW dealers advertise finance on s/h stock at 10.9%, but if they don't quite rapidly reduce it upon mild arm-twisting to at least 5.9%, then you should walk away. Remember that base rates are 0.25%, so there's no way double-digit rates are justifiable, particularly for PCP where they retain ownership of the vehicle. |
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 17, 2020 13:34:10 GMT
Yes, when you look at the cost of the car including finance its ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 17, 2020 13:43:40 GMT
Remember that there are still some very cheap personal loans kicking about which are about half the best used HP rates. Are you using my spreadsheet?
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Jun 17, 2020 13:44:51 GMT
Remember that there are still some very cheap personal loans kicking about which are about half the best used HP rates. Are you using my spreadsheet? Yes, it's still easy to get 2.9% on up to £25,000. I had a Tesco loan over 2 years to buy the BMW and the interest on £25k was only £750. |
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 17, 2020 13:57:33 GMT
Remember that there are still some very cheap personal loans kicking about which are about half the best used HP rates. Are you using my spreadsheet? I am thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 18, 2020 12:48:42 GMT
Just got some leasing figures through:
Jaguar HSE with full maintenance and breakdown for 3 years. 6mths up front (£3,183.06) and £530.51/mth. Both + VAT so effectively 10% more. Doesn't seem too bad for a £76,000 car.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 18, 2020 13:22:38 GMT
That's about what BMW finance would charge you for a £25k used 440i that probably doesn't have the maintenance/breakdown thing included.
|
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Jun 18, 2020 16:12:03 GMT
That's about what BMW finance would charge you for a £25k used 440i that probably doesn't have the maintenance/breakdown thing included. Not to remotely defend BMW, but are you sure you are comparing apples with apples? |
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Jun 18, 2020 17:08:55 GMT
That's about what BMW finance would charge you for a £25k used 440i that probably doesn't have the maintenance/breakdown thing included. Not to remotely defend BMW, but are you sure you are comparing apples with apples? Don't start that again or we'll be onto new 992's for 1 series money |
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 19, 2020 7:40:56 GMT
That's about what BMW finance would charge you for a £25k used 440i that probably doesn't have the maintenance/breakdown thing included. Not to remotely defend BMW, but are you sure you are comparing apples with apples? Not entirely the same and the monthly cost is different but if you look at the car below and just take BMWs finance you have a similar deposit and £360/month but that's on a 3 year old car. How much per month would you have to add to get a full warranty (in addition to whatever you get with approved used which won't cover the 3 years), servicing and breakdown cover? usedcars.bmw.co.uk/vehicle/202006029734662 |
|
|
|
Post by garry on Jun 19, 2020 8:33:53 GMT
Just got some leasing figures through: Jaguar HSE with full maintenance and breakdown for 3 years. 6mths up front (£3,183.06) and £530.51/mth. Both + VAT so effectively 10% more. Doesn't seem too bad for a £76,000 car. That’s getting better. That’s lower than the quote I got pre crisis for an i pace. |
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Jun 19, 2020 10:16:12 GMT
I had a chat with my colleague about the iPace he's just had delivered which I thought he'd bought himself, as I knew he'd ordered a 330e company car. But the lease company called him and said the delivery date for the 330e was being pushed back to December and would he like an iPace instead as they could offer it at the same cost to the company. He's delighted.
He covers the whole of the UK and does 25-30k miles a year, although that was pre CV19, so will probably reduce, it will be really interesting to see how he gets on. He thinks it will have a 280 mile range and will only take 40mins to charge when he's on longer journeys. I think he's being very optimistic (especially charge times) and he could find it difficult, but obviously didn't say that!
I still struggle with the looks, but it's a very cheap company car if you can make it work.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 19, 2020 10:43:40 GMT
I had a chat with my colleague about the iPace he's just had delivered which I thought he'd bought himself, as I knew he'd ordered a 330e company car. But the lease company called him and said the delivery date for the 330e was being pushed back to December and would he like an iPace instead as they could offer it at the same cost to the company. He's delighted. He covers the whole of the UK and does 25-30k miles a year, although that was pre CV19, so will probably reduce, it will be really interesting to see how he gets on. He thinks it will have a 280 mile range and will only take 40mins to charge when he's on longer journeys. I think he's being very optimistic (especially charge times) and he could find it difficult, but obviously didn't say that! I still struggle with the looks, but it's a very cheap company car if you can make it work. The latest CAR has an interesting article comparing the Tesla Model S, Porsche Taycan and M5 and the comments about range and recharging the Porsche are interesting. If you sit at 120 on the Autobahn you'll get about 140 miles range. An 80% charge takes about 25 minutes so if you sat at 120 then after 50 minutes of driving you'll have to stop for what will be 30 minutes by the time you've plugged everything in. It is clear that if you want to get anywhere close to the published range of these vehicles you'll have to drive at a speed that'll hamper trucks on the motorway. |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 19, 2020 11:27:20 GMT
I think the real life range of the i-Pace is likely to be around 220. That let's us get to St Andrews and back and to most of the other places we go relatively regularly.
It is unlikely that we will be doing many of our longer trips south now that my daughter is heading into her last year at school and then University. By the time they allow Synchronised swimming again she will be too busy with other things. Basically we should be OK for over 90% of the journeys we make, charging it up at home. We've always got the petrol monster for long trips where charging could be an issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Jun 19, 2020 11:52:59 GMT
I think the real life range of the i-Pace is likely to be around 220. That let's us get to St Andrews and back and to most of the other places we go relatively regularly. It is unlikely that we will be doing many of our longer trips south now that my daughter is heading into her last year at school and then University. By the time they allow Synchronised swimming again she will be too busy with other things. Basically we should be OK for over 90% of the journeys we make, charging it up at home. We've always got the petrol monster for long trips where charging could be an issue. I can see one working as a second car, but do struggle with it as a company car for someone in a National role. Harry M had one for a while and gave up taking it on journeys that were longer than 50% of the safe range, as it was so frustrating trying to get it charged anywhere other than at home. Which doesn't sound it would be problem for you. |
|
|
|
Post by garry on Jun 19, 2020 13:18:02 GMT
I think the real life range of the i-Pace is likely to be around 220. That let's us get to St Andrews and back and to most of the other places we go relatively regularly. It is unlikely that we will be doing many of our longer trips south now that my daughter is heading into her last year at school and then University. By the time they allow Synchronised swimming again she will be too busy with other things. Basically we should be OK for over 90% of the journeys we make, charging it up at home. We've always got the petrol monster for long trips where charging could be an issue. I can see one working as a second car, but do struggle with it as a company car for someone in a National role. Harry M had one for a while and gave up taking it on journeys that were longer than 50% of the safe range, as it was so frustrating trying to get it charged anywhere other than at home. Which doesn't sound it would be problem for you. I think Tesla is the only e-game in town if you do big miles - the charging infrastructure is superior. But the reality for most drivers is they do not do big miles. How frequently do many of us drive more than 100 miles from home? Still, I’m only committing to an e car because I have other cars. In the role of second car I think it’s a no brainer, especially for those who can benefit from the bik and tax advantages. |
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Jun 19, 2020 13:40:46 GMT
I think the real life range of the i-Pace is likely to be around 220. That let's us get to St Andrews and back and to most of the other places we go relatively regularly. It is unlikely that we will be doing many of our longer trips south now that my daughter is heading into her last year at school and then University. By the time they allow Synchronised swimming again she will be too busy with other things. Basically we should be OK for over 90% of the journeys we make, charging it up at home. We've always got the petrol monster for long trips where charging could be an issue. I can see one working as a second car, but do struggle with it as a company car for someone in a National role. Harry M had one for a while and gave up taking it on journeys that were longer than 50% of the safe range, as it was so frustrating trying to get it charged anywhere other than at home. Which doesn't sound it would be problem for you. And Harrys a serious JLR advocate having been or maybe still is on the payroll but his report of the Ipace was pretty damning around the charging network. Great car but a PITA trying to charge outside of the home. As Scouse says only Tesla seems to have that game licked. Porsche can boast about full charging in 20 minutes or whatever it is but if there isnt the infrastructure... |
|
