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Post by racingteatray on Apr 23, 2020 17:35:50 GMT
The right wing of the Tory party and its mouthpieces have been uncomfortable with lockdown from the get-go. For what strike me as ideological reasons of the excessively libertarian sort.
I'm not defending our government's handling of the crisis. I'm just generally sceptical of a knee-jerk anti-lockdown mentality. And when I read that site, just that "hilarious" "Covid-19 talking points meme/list at the bottom made me immediately think "written by reactionary tools for reactionary tools".
How any one thinks Trump has handled this well from the perspective of anyone but Trump is entirely beyond me.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 23, 2020 18:24:54 GMT
I mean this really is sub-teenage posturing:
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 23, 2020 18:35:42 GMT
You give far too much credence to the general intelligence of the population. This sort of stuff is the only thing that a great deal of people understand. I was having a debate with someone over WhatsApp and I mentioned the economy. His response was.... I tell you what I'm going to copy and paste. He represents a large percentage of people who think like this. Fuck the economy Wont be one without people!!!!
So shall we just let it run amok? For the sake of money? Paper shit that gets you shit things!!! For the sake of peoples lives? Survival of the fittest so to speak?
[Me] Well that depends on whether you get the free (not really, we are all going to be paying for years) money or not, doesn't it?
Not really , its a holiday!! Well be paying for the people that fiddled there tax and still went cap in hand!! Even though they could still probably manage to survive for few months and for the massive quantitative easing of the big boys(200billion) for starters. That free broadband really doesn't sound to bad now.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 23, 2020 18:38:19 GMT
Basically, he's sat at home, getting paid for nothing and thinks it's great. Anything else and you are killing people.
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Post by chipbutty on Apr 23, 2020 18:56:55 GMT
So - assuming you would consider humouring this person a small while longer, what exactly are they proposing ?
- Indefinite lock down until a vaccine is found and administered ?
- An even more stringent lock down that would keep people sealed within their homes for a period of time long enough for the virus to die out ?
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Post by Martin on Apr 23, 2020 19:00:04 GMT
Basically, he's sat at home, getting paid for nothing and thinks it's great. Anything else and you are killing people. There are too many people sitting at home on their arse happy that they’re getting paid to do nothing. They should be made to do some sort of volunteer type work for the NHS or a charity in order to get money. I couldn’t just sit at home doing nothing.
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Post by Alex on Apr 23, 2020 19:10:27 GMT
Basically, he's sat at home, getting paid for nothing and thinks it's great. Anything else and you are killing people. There are too many people sitting at home on their arse happy that they’re getting paid to do nothing. They should be made to do some sort of volunteer type work for the NHS or a charity in order to get money. I'll be one of those in May as I'm being furloughed and yes I'm looking forward to not having to work but I'm not happy about it. I've gone from a career based on visiting different buildings and different people everyday across the country to being stuck in our little village for over a month. Its driving me slightly potty but it's better than being ill. Longer term though we are going to have to have a sensible discussion about rebuilding be economy and that will mean working out how we can get back out safely so we can start using pubs and restaurants again. I know that a meal out is a luxury but it's also someones livelihood. Likewise with schools, our kids are suffering from the lack of a structured education so we need to find a way to get them safely back into the classroom sooner rather than later. I'm not saying we should just let the virus tear through the population but if we can monitor who has or hasn't got it and put mandatory trace contacting in place, we could get more people back to work.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 23, 2020 19:17:13 GMT
So - assuming you would consider humouring this person a small while longer, what exactly are they proposing ? - Indefinite lock down until a vaccine is found and administered ? - An even more stringent lock down that would keep people sealed within their homes for a period of time long enough for the virus to die out ? Yes, that's his position. Boils my piss.
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Post by chipbutty on Apr 23, 2020 19:17:28 GMT
Define better than being ill ?
Ill like the flu ?, or ill as in ICU ?.
Just out of interest - are you actually worried about catching Covid ?
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 23, 2020 19:18:14 GMT
Basically, he's sat at home, getting paid for nothing and thinks it's great. Anything else and you are killing people. There are too many people sitting at home on their arse happy that they’re getting paid to do nothing. They should be made to do some sort of volunteer type work for the NHS or a charity in order to get money. I couldn’t just sit at home doing nothing. Agree totally. Lincolnshire is crying out for agri workers and they have had to ship in Romanians. Again, boils my piss when people are sat on their arses.
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Post by chipbutty on Apr 23, 2020 19:20:57 GMT
Which one ?
I could get on board with being locked away for two whole weeks if everyone else was (take your medicine fast) - and I'll just gloss over the practicalities (like how you feed people, etc). But anyone who seriously considers a 12 to 18 month period of lock down is clearly on another planet.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 23, 2020 19:22:42 GMT
Oh, he is long term and the economy be damned.
To be clear, I believed in the initial lockdown (hate that word as we are not prisoners in our homes). My belief was that once the NHS had the capability to deal with large numbers, it would be relaxed. The second 3 weeks was probably prudent, albeit damaging and irritating, but as long as it gets relaxed then things can pick up and we can avoid too much economic damage.
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Post by PG on Apr 23, 2020 19:26:08 GMT
I mean this really is sub-teenage posturing: Yes it's pretty basic stuff. But on the other hand, to hear some people (like the one that Mark quoted) their stance is really "if you're not in favour of a total lock down you are in favour of people dying. Why don't you die first?" The debate actually reminds me of the debate about immigration. Pre 2008-ish, anybody talking about immigration was a racist - pure and simple. Then the debate became mainstream. Now anybody against the lockdown is a nutjob in favour of death..... Whereas I am sure we all know that it is far more nuanced than that. A balance will have to be struck between the economy, non-Covid deaths and Covid deaths. What I'd really like to see is ministers starting to take a more aggressive line with the people asking them the same old same old questions every day and the press briefings. They should be saying - look this is compicated, there are no simple answers to exit plan v lockdown; we're damned if we do and damned of we don't.
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Post by Andy C on Apr 23, 2020 20:36:29 GMT
There are too many people sitting at home on their arse happy that they’re getting paid to do nothing. They should be made to do some sort of volunteer type work for the NHS or a charity in order to get money. I couldn’t just sit at home doing nothing. Agree totally. Lincolnshire is crying out for agri workers and they have had to ship in Romanians. Again, boils my piss when people are sat on their arses. We are that quiet (1 call out a day on average) that we are being furloughed throughout may. Luckily we are working with the trussel trust doing voluntary stuff which we can still do while furloughed
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Post by garry on Apr 24, 2020 8:27:43 GMT
My frustration about what we’re being told in the uk grows. Yesterday there was news from New York. 3000 people tested for antibodies in a study conducted by New York State. They were randomly selected while out shopping in grocery stores, The study found 22% of the cohort in New York City tested positive for antibodies. That means that they had coronavirus, recovered and developed immunity - a process which takes time so this study gives us a snapshot of the spread of the virus two weeks ago. I understand this to be a small sample, but it’s real data - something we’re woefully short of. Maybe I’m just impatient, but the uk press isn’t talking about this bar the Express who bizarrely paint a bad news story of something like ‘3 million in nyc have the death bug’. All we get is more pictures of nhs staff who’ve died,
For what it’s worth, my take on this study if it anywhere near translates to the general population in nyc is:
Coronavirus is hugely contagious. NYC had 4 cases on March 1st. There are 10 times more infections than thought. New York State reports circa 250k cases, this data suggests a number closer to 3 million. Coronavirus is a killer, but closer to flu than Ebola, Flu kills at about 0.1%, coronavirus maybe 0.5%. This will likely drop closer to flu as we align the data I.e. the 0.5% figure takes current deaths and two week old data on antibodies. It’s likely more of the population have developed antibodies in that time. Lockdown was a waste of time - if there was a 20% prevalence at the start of lockdown then the probability of being locked down with someone with it was high. Given how contagious it is, the chances of not getting it from someone you’re locked down with was low.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 24, 2020 9:00:11 GMT
Do we know that the presence of antibodies gives immunity? I thought the experts were still unsure of this?
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Post by garry on Apr 24, 2020 9:19:54 GMT
Do we know that the presence of antibodies gives immunity? I thought the experts were still unsure of this? As I understand it antibodies give immunity, but they don’t always stay in your system. So a positive result doesn’t guarantee lifetime immunity. This isn’t a coronavirus thing, it’s how antibodies work (my understanding. I could be completely wrong)
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 24, 2020 11:07:19 GMT
As I've pointed out before, this lockdown has nothing to do with saving people or lives - it's about the ability to cope with illness across the board. With a large number in hospital requiring treatment due to a single cause that has suddenly arisen there is no room for all the other ailments to be treated so making us stay at home is reducing RTAs, physical-stress induced illness and injury, workplace injuries etc. It's also to prevent the very common issue of going to work feeling ill in order to: not feel you're "letting the team down"; carry on earning because you MUST; carry on going to work because your life is empty and meaningless without it and the issue of overworking others when people are off sick (very common to expect everyone else to do more when others are absent in the assumption that the rest of the business is underworked).
With this in mind it's no cause for celebration that the Nightingale hospitals are largely empty: all the COVID cases should be shuttled off there whilst everyday hospitals can get on with being everyday hospitals so society can get back to a form of existence that isn't standing in the street clapping every Thursday - only staffing those Nightingale hospitals is the problem.
The Flu is being used a lot as a comparator: I've had the flu once. It fucked me right over and I recovered but I don't assume I'm now immune for life but I still don't get a jab (wife does; mother does; kids do) so I'm probably living proof as to the lack of responsibility that abounds in society. We're on a downward cycle now so there's hope (the London graph is particularly steep in its downward arc of death) for a mid-end of May relaxation of sorts but I don't envisage my day suddenly becoming the normal commute.
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Post by Alex on Apr 24, 2020 11:41:10 GMT
Flu really is fucking horrible if you get it properly. I have once and it left me bed bound for a week and feeling pretty weak for a couple of weeks after. From what my brother experienced of Covid it's a similar illness. Like flu though a lot of people get it and suffer no symptoms but just pass it on to others. Hence my sister in law and my brothers 3 kids have all had no apparent signs of the illness (they've not been tested but given SIL shared a bed with my brother during the 2 week incubation period I cannot see how she would not have been exposed).
I expect we will have to live with Covid19 as we live with the flu and like the flu it will mutate into a slightly different form each year so a new vaccine will keep needing to be developed. Like flu there will be good and bad years and the bad years will probably see a lot of deaths. This is the first year of it and will probably be one of the bad years.
I'm not a scientist though so I could he wrong.
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Post by johnc on Apr 24, 2020 12:46:59 GMT
I've just had my first business casualty - a cafe owner who had to decide whether to sign a new lease starting at the beginning of May - she has decided to walk away and close it because the Politicians have made it clear that social distancing in restaurants, cinemas etc will be needed at least until the end of the year and that would make her business completely nonviable. I have a friend who's sister and her husband run a small hotel: they make 80% of their income between Easter and September each year and they are obviously closed. The husband has lost it and is apparently muttering about topping himself because he sees it as the only way out of the mess they find themselves in - they spent a lot of money on the property last year and increased their mortgage considerably. They have taken a reluctantly given 3 month mortgage holiday but they fear that their business will not get back to normal for a few years and that is too long to wait.
I was also talking to a doctor this morning who used to do lots of private work. The private hospital he worked at has been on hold and empty for Covid cases but in his opinion it should now be opened as a clean space for treatment of cancer and other serious cases of more normal ailments. He knows a few doctors who have had Coronavirus and he is under no illusions that it is a really nasty virus if you react badly to it but he did think that a bit more freedom should be given for some return to a more normal life (golf and sailing for him). However he said he knew no-one in the medical profession who would be rushing for a meal out for several months yet.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 24, 2020 13:40:22 GMT
I was also talking to a doctor this morning who used to do lots of private work. The private hospital he worked at has been on hold and empty for Covid cases but in his opinion it should now be opened as a clean space for treatment of cancer and other serious cases of more normal ailments. This. This is the purpose of re-purposing various facilities, not 100% for Covid-19 otherwise a larger proportion of the daily death toll won't be "complications due to Covid-19" but "lack of medical attention due to overarching focus on Covid-19" which would be as wrong, if not more so, than just accepting some Covid-19 deaths.
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Post by Alex on Apr 25, 2020 5:20:59 GMT
Totally agree. Last time I checked cancer hasn't decided to disappear for a bit whilst we sort out this virus. There's going to be a lot of new cases going undiagnosed because you cant get non emergency appointments so if you've got minor symptoms you have to wait.
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Post by Tim on May 12, 2020 13:32:26 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on May 12, 2020 14:46:15 GMT
"Our message today is simple: we stood behind Britain's workers and businesses as we came into this crisis, and we will stand behind them as we come through the other side."
.......so don't complain when the tax hikes kick in, OK?
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Post by johnc on May 12, 2020 16:17:18 GMT
I am getting slightly irritated at the comments some in the media/Unions/Politicians are making about what employers are going to do to ensure the safety of staff with some stating that there should be no return to work until safety can be assured. As my wife said last night, if they reduce the furlough payments to 50% or 60% you might find lots of people much more willing to return to work. However at 80% of salary and nothing to worry about why would you want to go to work.
It's also a virus, it is not something the employer can necessarily control. If some staff don't wash their hands or come to work when they are coughing why is that the employer's problem? Have rules that are very clear about what everyone can and should do but some personal responsibility is needed here - we are all equally and jointly responsible and if we are going to have a life after this is over, we are all going to have to get back to work - maybe not immediately but the current situation is unsustainable and everyone has to recognise that.
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Post by Martin on May 12, 2020 16:32:53 GMT
I am getting slightly irritated at the comments some in the media/Unions/Politicians are making about what employers are going to do to ensure the safety of staff with some stating that there should be no return to work until safety can be assured. As my wife said last night, if they reduce the furlough payments to 50% or 60% you might find lots of people much more willing to return to work. However at 80% of salary and nothing to worry about why would you want to go to work. It's also a virus, it is not something the employer can necessarily control. If some staff don't wash their hands or come to work when they are coughing why is that the employer's problem? Have rules that are very clear about what everyone can and should do but some personal responsibility is needed here - we are all equally and jointly responsible and if we are going to have a life after this is over, we are all going to have to get back to work - maybe not immediately but the current situation is unsustainable and everyone has to recognise that. PM me if there’s anything I can do to help. We’ve been fully operational and refining our procedures since the start and admin offices are the highest risk imo. I’ve got processes & procedures / learnings / posters etc etc. All of which have has now been through and approved by both the local HSE and EHO teams thanks to a whistleblower who said we weren’t doing anything.... Don't start me on furlough and people thinking it’s not worth working....boils all my fluids that one!
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Post by PG on May 12, 2020 18:12:32 GMT
I am getting slightly irritated at the comments some in the media/Unions/Politicians are making about what employers are going to do to ensure the safety of staff with some stating that there should be no return to work until safety can be assured. As my wife said last night, if they reduce the furlough payments to 50% or 60% you might find lots of people much more willing to return to work. However at 80% of salary and nothing to worry about why would you want to go to work. It's also a virus, it is not something the employer can necessarily control. If some staff don't wash their hands or come to work when they are coughing why is that the employer's problem? Have rules that are very clear about what everyone can and should do but some personal responsibility is needed here - we are all equally and jointly responsible and if we are going to have a life after this is over, we are all going to have to get back to work - maybe not immediately but the current situation is unsustainable and everyone has to recognise that. PM me if there’s anything I can do to help. We’ve been fully operational and refining our procedures since the start and admin offices are the highest risk imo. I’ve got processes & procedures / learnings / posters etc etc. All of which have has now been through and approved by both the local HSE and EHO teams thanks to a whistleblower who said we weren’t doing anything.... Don't start me on furlough and people thinking it’s not worth working....boils all my fluids that one! As a caller said on Jeremy Vine today (I know, I know, but I was in the truck getting farm supplies in) there are some people who will knuckle down and make this work and others who will look for any excuse to skive off. When I heard some teachers on the TV saying that it was impossible that kids can go back to school, my piss actually boiled. Same as the Labour peer that was on the radio just looking for issues all the time. No "can do" attitude. No encouragement. Just expecting other people to do everything and then complaining that they have not.
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Post by chipbutty on May 12, 2020 20:17:55 GMT
I expected some extended support for businesses that get completely stuffed (Hospitality, events, entertainment, etc) - but this is just nuts.
1) If it's true that a good majority of people hate their jobs - who is going to want to go back ?
2) What extra support do the people who were made redundant just before Furlough get ?
I imagine that any business who will merrily furlough people on 80% for almost 6 months will have an extremely unhappy cohort of people who haven't been furloughed.
This is just a monstrous HR mess - what's going to happen when people do need to be made redundant and they either get rid of everyone or (even worse) ditch some of those who worked and retain some of the furloughees.
" My Friend " really enjoys doing 60+ hour weeks and working their stat holidays whilst other colleagues are suckling at the 100% furlough teet.
FFS x 1000
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Post by Alex on May 12, 2020 22:06:19 GMT
Our local village primary school (not the one my youngest goes to but the one my eldest did before we took her out) have issued a statement stating in no uncertain terms that they will not be opening on 1st June irregardless of what the government say. This has caused something of an uproar amongst parents, many of whom will be expected back at work by their employers by then. The closure of schools is having a massive impact on our kids. Neither of my two are doing any school work now, they're just not interested. My wife was discussing our eldest with friends of hers with similar age kids (yr9) and nearly all said they're dealing with massive anxiety problems, (one now has a 14 year old who wont even leave her room to eat and another has a 15yr old boy who spends most days crying over the most trivial things). Most secondary school kids are now unlikely to return until September but I don't think any will start learning properly, if at all, before the year is out and may now see their secondary education completely ruined. Yet their age group has less than 0.1% mortality rate from Covid.
The phrase "when all this is over" has been very overused since lockdown started but it's about time that we faced the cold hard reality that it won't be over so long as the virus exists and is circulating within the population and the lockdown, such as it is, wont eradicate it unless everyone stays completely indoors which just is not possible. The simple fact is that we need to come out of lockdown and focus on controlling spread through cleanliness and social distancing whilst accepting that some people will get ill and focus in protecting those for whom it will be dangerous but not at the expense of society as a whole.
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Post by LandieMark on May 13, 2020 8:10:48 GMT
Our local village primary school (not the one my youngest goes to but the one my eldest did before we took her out) have issued a statement stating in no uncertain terms that they will not be opening on 1st June irregardless of what the government say. This has caused something of an uproar amongst parents, many of whom will be expected back at work by their employers by then. The closure of schools is having a massive impact on our kids. Neither of my two are doing any school work now, they're just not interested. My wife was discussing our eldest with friends of hers with similar age kids (yr9) and nearly all said they're dealing with massive anxiety problems, (one now has a 14 year old who wont even leave her room to eat and another has a 15yr old boy who spends most days crying over the most trivial things). Most secondary school kids are now unlikely to return until September but I don't think any will start learning properly, if at all, before the year is out and may now see their secondary education completely ruined. Yet their age group has less than 0.1% mortality rate from Covid. The phrase "when all this is over" has been very overused since lockdown started but it's about time that we faced the cold hard reality that it won't be over so long as the virus exists and is circulating within the population and the lockdown, such as it is, wont eradicate it unless everyone stays completely indoors which just is not possible. The simple fact is that we need to come out of lockdown and focus on controlling spread through cleanliness and social distancing whilst accepting that some people will get ill and focus in protecting those for whom it will be dangerous but not at the expense of society as a whole. Agree with all of that. I've said it before, but the whole purpose of the lockdown was to get the NHS ready for a huge amount of cases in a short time. They increased capacity, didn't actually need any or much of it and yet we are still locked down to an extent. I had no problem with the original lockdown, but this extended lockdown is going to be incredibly damaging. A quick look on Facebook this morning has posts of outrage about the lockdown being reduced without any thought of the consequences on the country as a whole of extending it. I knew I shouldn't have bothered looking. Free money, isn't it? 😠
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