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Post by Big Blue on Jan 17, 2020 22:31:57 GMT
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Post by michael on Jan 20, 2020 19:12:58 GMT
The more I hear about Greta and her idiotic disciples the more I want a V8.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 20, 2020 22:44:57 GMT
The more I hear about Greta and her idiotic disciples the more I want a V8. I think many things about that remark and none of them are positive.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 21, 2020 8:34:54 GMT
The more I hear about Greta and her idiotic disciples the more I want a V8.
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Post by LandieMark on Jan 21, 2020 8:51:02 GMT
The more I hear about Greta and her idiotic disciples the more I want a V8. I think many things about that remark and none of them are positive. Oh do come on. She is a puppet for an extremist agenda. I do think climate change is a problem, but having tantrums and screaming at people does not actually do very much and is the wrong approach. Encouraging children to bunk off school as a means of protest is irresponsible too. I have no time for people and organisations that cause massive disruption of people's daily lives in the name of their cause. It seems to me that there is far too much extremism in causes these days. Extinction Rebellion, veganism etc. This popped up on my feed this morning which will win the hearts and minds of the people they are trying to target. I am fed up of the whole bloody lot of them.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 9:24:01 GMT
Environmentalism is the west’s new religion. In Greta it has its messiah who will guide us from damnation. It’s even a climate crisis now to fit the end of days narrative and the heretics are called deniers. The problem is what she’s a front for looks a lot like Marxism.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 9:40:14 GMT
I think there's a big difference between disliking the approach, finding the Nazi stuff childish/stupid and being a denier.
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Post by LandieMark on Jan 21, 2020 9:54:25 GMT
I think there's a big difference between disliking the approach, finding the Nazi stuff childish/stupid and being a denier. I completely agree. The problem is that the extremists view anybody who doesn't share their views as deniers.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 10:30:04 GMT
I think there's a big difference between disliking the approach, finding the Nazi stuff childish/stupid and being a denier. The problem is that environmental issues aren't so black and white and adopting the denier handle is just a means of name calling rather than engaging with people on what ought to be a serious issue. Do as the righteous or you're wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 10:31:52 GMT
That last sentence is it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 21, 2020 10:53:09 GMT
I think there's a big difference between disliking the approach, finding the Nazi stuff childish/stupid and being a denier. I completely agree. The problem is that the extremists view anybody who doesn't share their views as deniers. You should know that you're only allowed to hold an opinion if it's the right one. A certain Laurence Fox has found that out recently. I think Greta is genuine in her concern and I certainly wouldn't mock her to her face. We also have to remember that she is a relatively immature child who has emotional and behavioural issues which have been helped by her focusing on one narrow issue. She also has parents who have milked that for all its worth. She has become a lightning rod for a lot of young people who have deep seated worries about climate change and are frustrated that older people don't share their urgency - they've been protected all their lives and have never had to worry about anything. The problem is that if you grew up in the 60s and 70s you had the imminent threat of nuclear Armageddon, mass unemployment, riots, the IRA bombing pubs so the warnings by climate scientists in the background that the Earth was cooling and we were looking at a new ice age as we approached the 21st century were largely ignored. Spool on 40 years and a lot of older people have difficulty getting onboard with a new mantra of a warming Earth leading to some potential crisis at an unspecified date in the future.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 11:05:11 GMT
I completely agree. The problem is that the extremists view anybody who doesn't share their views as deniers. You should know that you're only allowed to hold an opinion if it's the right one. A certain Laurence Fox has found that out recently. I think Greta is genuine in her concern and I certainly wouldn't mock her to her face. We also have to remember that she is a relatively immature child who has emotional and behavioural issues which have been helped by her focusing on one narrow issue. She also has parents who have milked that for all its worth. She has become a lightning rod for a lot of young people who have deep seated worries about climate change and are frustrated that older people don't share their urgency - they've been protected all their lives and have never had to worry about anything. The problem is that if you grew up in the 60s and 70s you had the imminent threat of nuclear Armageddon, mass unemployment, riots, the IRA bombing pubs so the warnings by climate scientists in the background that the Earth was cooling and we were looking at a new ice age as we approached the 21st century were largely ignored. Spool on 40 years and a lot of older people have difficulty getting onboard with a new mantra of a warming Earth leading to some potential crisis at an unspecified date in the future. Well put. I am just tired of listening to people rubbish Greta and concerns around climate change - and it's nearly always the same sort of people. Of course it's all overstated and exaggerated - it has to be controversial or nobody pays any attention and behaviours don't start to change as they must. And of course it's easy to pick gaping holes in. Find me something that isn't. I have no truck with vegans, none with PETA and little with extremists of any stripe. But I find Greta, if you strip away the accompanying kerfuffle, an authentic voice on a matter of very real concern. And it bothers me intensely when people just insist on trying to inflict on such concerns a form of death by a thousand little criticisms and snarky memes. We all need to collectively grow up and recognise our responsibilities. For example, why bother having and educating children if you're not going to try and bequeath them the best possible environment to live in?
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 21, 2020 11:18:13 GMT
I'm afraid I'm a bit more fatalistic than that:
We are a parasite on the planet we call Earth and when it finds a cure for us it will just kill us all. That might be in one day; it might take a hundred years from now or it may be in a million years time (short in terms of earth; very very very long in terms of the recorded history of mankind). Ergo: we are in no position to save the planet; all we are interested in in saving the planet for mankind's survival on it. Until we stop living longer, having too many children (yes - I know, guilty as charged) we're on a hiding to nothing in the long term.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 11:21:37 GMT
We are ruining this planet, that is undeniable, but it ain't with CO2...
Thanos had the right idea, just eliminate every other person.
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Post by PG on Jan 21, 2020 11:21:43 GMT
You should know that you're only allowed to hold an opinion if it's the right one. A certain Laurence Fox has found that out recently. This. I am all for improving the environment, but this obsession, to a pre-reformation religious fervour level in many, with only one aspect is something I cannot stomach. Yet again - as the "if you drive a car you are a fascist" sticker shows - the message is that if only we all drove electric cars and became vegan, the planet would be saved. No, it would make pretty much sod all difference. Like bob I think that these ideas being put forward are pretty much marxist (or almost early Maoist) in their desire to make everyone suffer for what some people believe is a greater good. I would say that access to personal transport has been one of the driving forces behind a lot of the changes for the good that we have seen. Like feudal peasants tied to their lord, people unable to use cars are forced to work where they are able to get to (by public transport or on foot / bicycle), are unable to move away if they find their lot might be better elsewhere etc etc. Thjat is why the hard left and the climatists hate cars -they are a symbol of personal freedom and it is that they really hate. What about focusing on the things that could actually a difference to people's real day to day lives - deforestation; over development, loss of green spaces, child labour; sweatshops in China; religious wars, genocides etc etc. No, it is just the west who are destroying the planet driving cars. And of course, what all this is driven by is the elephant that nobody dares mention - over population. 9+ billion people is simply unsustainable on this planet. Well it is if we want to live any sort of quality life. But I guess if you are a climate extremist (or a Davos wallower), you'll need plenty of cheap lives to do all the hard labour once we don't use fossil fuels. Want to build a new luxury gated house for your believers in the new world order without fossil fuels machinery - you'll need an army of labourers won't you, paid in food and shelter.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 11:26:02 GMT
We all need to collectively grow up and recognise our responsibilities. For example, why bother having and educating children if you're not going to try and bequeath them the best possible environment to live in? I stand by what I've said. Extinction Rebellion founder has explicitly said it's as much about a new economic model (Marxism) as it is about the environment. The people who align to this group think are more interested in lecturing others than changing their own behaviours.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 11:31:27 GMT
We all need to collectively grow up and recognise our responsibilities. For example, why bother having and educating children if you're not going to try and bequeath them the best possible environment to live in? I stand by what I've said. Extinction Rebellion founder has explicitly said it's as much about a new economic model (Marxism) as it is about the environment. The people who align to this group think are more interested in lecturing others than changing their own behaviours. In your opinion.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 11:34:51 GMT
Are you taking any flights this year?
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 12:26:39 GMT
Are you taking any flights this year? Not relevant because I'm not lecturing anyone on how many flights they take. But I'm really entirely unbothered about any hypocrisy on the part of those who do. Probably because I don't object to the message. We tend only to object to hypocrisy when it comes from those we disagree with...
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 12:34:45 GMT
But I'm really entirely unbothered about any hypocrisy on the part of those who do. Probably because I don't object to the message. I think this is the problem with a lot of issues. People care more about being seen to say the right thing than they are to do the right thing . As a result people become cynical about these issues and the suspicion grow that movements are in fact a vehicle for something else - like a change in the economic model for example.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 12:51:47 GMT
Nothing feeds cynicism like an underlying disagreement with the thing you're being cynical about.
I'm not remotely a Marxist so how come the fact that some Extinction Rebellion types are doesn't bother me even slightly but gets you hot under the collar?
The adult thing to do is surely to engage with the underlying issue (which is the single most serious one we face in the absence of an outbreak of deadly pandemic) and seek common ground and sensible compromises, whilst finding discrete ways to defuse the nutter element, rather than find excuses to retreat behind the comfort blanket of doing nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 12:55:20 GMT
People care more about being seen to say the right thing than they are to do the right thing . As a result people become cynical about these issues and the suspicion grow that movements are in fact a vehicle for something else - like a change in the economic model for example. This. The whole debate is bottle that can't be re-corked. We can't uninvent the stuff we've all become accustomed to and 99% of us don't want to either. These protesters are all travelling around using fossil fuels, wearing warm, man made fabrics and using electricity for their PA systems whilst telling the rest of us we're out of order for doing the very same thing. It's also very convenient that new taxes are being introduced under the environmental banner and anyone who thinks that tax on electricity won't go through the roof once we've all converted to EVs is a mug. The loss of fuel taxes from petrol and diesel needs to be recouped from somewhere and your new smartphone on wheels is where they'll be getting it from.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 21, 2020 13:05:08 GMT
As long as taxation is used as a tool of ecological control then the ecological message remains diluted in the eyes of the taxpayers - who are fairly numerous.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 21, 2020 13:08:01 GMT
But I'm really entirely unbothered about any hypocrisy on the part of those who do. Probably because I don't object to the message. I think this is the problem with a lot of issues. People care more about being seen to say the right thing than they are to do the right thing . As a result people become cynical about these issues and the suspicion grow that movements are in fact a vehicle for something else - like a change in the economic model for example. I tend to agree with this. We say we care but we still fly and drive. When challenged we say we care but we're not going to call anyone else out as we're not hypocrites (a kind of get out of jail card statement). We say we care but what difference would us suffering in a small country like the UK when the big polluters like the US, China and India are not perceived to be doing anything, so we stall and fade into inertia. We say we care at dinner parties and then all drive home hoping that others do something before we have to. To my mind; if you 100% believe there is a climate crisis caused by man-made CO2 emissions you must sell your car, use public transport, stop flying, turn your heating right down, eat locally produced and sourced food. Waiting for others to do this so you don'f have to just makes you a twat. However, if you only 99% believe then buy that V8. You might as well as all hope is lost.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 13:14:04 GMT
People care more about being seen to say the right thing than they are to do the right thing . As a result people become cynical about these issues and the suspicion grow that movements are in fact a vehicle for something else - like a change in the economic model for example. We can't uninvent the stuff we've all become accustomed to and 99% of us don't want to either. Nobody wants to. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. But everybody has to be prepared to start thinking just a tiny bit more about what they do and how they do it. It's not such a massive ask is it? There's a big issue in this country with people having a "it's not my problem" attitude - I don't know where it comes from. I can only assume there is something deeply wrong with our education system.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 21, 2020 13:18:50 GMT
We can't uninvent the stuff we've all become accustomed to and 99% of us don't want to either. Nobody wants to. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. But everybody has to be prepared to start thinking just a tiny bit more about what they do and how they do it. It's not such a massive ask is it? There's a big issue in this country with people having a "it's not my problem" attitude - I don't know where it comes from. I can only assume there is something deeply wrong with our education system. That's the problem; if it's as big a crisis as we're told it is that is nowhere near enough. We're talking really serious major changes needed.
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 13:26:03 GMT
Nothing feeds cynicism like an underlying disagreement with the thing you're being cynical about. I'm not remotely a Marxist so how come the fact that some Extinction Rebellion types are doesn't bother me even slightly but gets you hot under the collar? The adult thing to do is surely to engage with the underlying issue (which is the single most serious one we face in the absence of an outbreak of deadly pandemic) and seek common ground and sensible compromises, whilst finding discrete ways to defuse the nutter element, rather than find excuses to retreat behind the comfort blanket of doing nothing. There's a lot wrong with that statement.
First of all it's how you fix the problem. As you've admitted above, for a lot of people being seen to champion the cause is more important than their own behaviour change. This 'do as I say not as I do' is a typical product of Marxism and that is abhorrent and needs to be resisted. The other problem with this is that it's the eco-lobby way or no way. I'd argue they've got it wrong in a great many cases. Electric cars for example in terms of whole life costs are worse polluting than conventional cars. We'd be better adopting LPG vehicles until electric was clean (battery wise) and efficient. Same is true of energy production, we should have invested in nuclear years ago as energy security with windmills isn't viable. But there's no room for debate here because you're a denier if you disagree.
You mentioned earlier on what's the point of educating young people for a doomed future. I'd argue that terrifying children about a forthcoming apocalypse is at best scaremongering and at worst abusive. The future which is a reality is that their prospects are substantially curtailed by the damage we're doing to our economy whilst giving China a free pass. Most people would agree that reducing the UK emissions to zero will do nothing to global warming so long as China carries on as it likes. If the prophecies are true the best we can hope for is to point to a London flooded by seawater and say to China, "there, I told you so". I somehow doubt they'll give a toss. I'd regard the treat of China as a more real risk to our way of life than climate change. It's a challenging problem that a lot of people aren't keen to address, retreating to comfort blankets and doing nothing springs to mind.
Finally, those you castigate of doing nothing may be doing more than you but as they're not reading from your prescribed script they're heretics. I've planted over one hundred trees on my land, I've got fifty silver birch trees growing from seed in pots that I give away for people and organisations to plant locally. I've also planted quite a few on verges and other places which are doing very well. With that, and plenty of other examples of doing something I could reel off, the accusation of doing nothing is as lazy as it is false. But then I'm less bothered about being seen to say the on-message things - I'm more an actions speak louder than words type in that respect.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 13:29:20 GMT
I think this is the problem with a lot of issues. People care more about being seen to say the right thing than they are to do the right thing . As a result people become cynical about these issues and the suspicion grow that movements are in fact a vehicle for something else - like a change in the economic model for example. To my mind; if you 100% believe there is a climate crisis caused by man-made CO2 emissions you must sell your car, use public transport, stop flying, turn your heating right down, eat locally produced and sourced food. Waiting for others to do this so you don'f have to just makes you a twat. However, if you only 99% believe then buy that V8. You might as well as all hope is lost. I don't agree with that black and white view, not least because it means sweet FA will happen. People still need to drive and fly - there isn't the infrastructure to allow many to stop doing so. People still need to be warm and eat - biology dictates that. The point is to start encouraging people to change their behaviour because this is one area where every little really does help. And at the same time, active engagement from government and commerce is required to ensure that the choice offered to consumers is cleaner and greener as that will also usefully deal with those who refuse to engage.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jan 21, 2020 13:40:26 GMT
We can't uninvent the stuff we've all become accustomed to and 99% of us don't want to either. Nobody wants to. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. But everybody has to be prepared to start thinking just a tiny bit more about what they do and how they do it. It's not such a massive ask is it? There's a big issue in this country with people having a "it's not my problem" attitude - I don't know where it comes from. I can only assume there is something deeply wrong with our education system. Without being too personal which I know I am , but what are you doing? We are all well aware of your travels from your posts on here, so it does come across as do as a I would like rather then what I do. Just thinking about it does nothing. Real change is needed from the those that shout the loudest and then maybe you'll get the likes of myself on board quicker then you think. Yes am am one of those that thinks we should be doing more but whats the point if the lkes of the US, India and China aren't on board. If we were taking climate change seriously we'd impose trading restrictions on those country's that weren't signed up. The government must be rubbing their hands with glee thinking about the new tax income.
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Post by PG on Jan 21, 2020 13:53:41 GMT
To my mind; if you 100% believe there is a climate crisis caused by man-made CO2 emissions you must sell your car, use public transport, stop flying, turn your heating right down, eat locally produced and sourced food. Waiting for others to do this so you don'f have to just makes you a twat. However, if you only 99% believe then buy that V8. You might as well as all hope is lost. I don't agree with that black and white view, not least because it means sweet FA will happen. People still need to drive and fly - there isn't the infrastructure to allow many to stop doing so. People still need to be warm and eat - biology dictates that. The point is to start encouraging people to change their behaviour because this is one area where every little really does help. And at the same time, active engagement from government and commerce is required to ensure that the choice offered to consumers is cleaner and greener as that will also usefully deal with those who refuse to engage. This is a key point. There is no point in being "greener and cleaner". If there truly is the crisis we are all being told is here now, that is just pissing in the wind. We are being told that we need to be at net zero by 2050. That means in that only 30 years, we have to net emit zero CO2. My own view is that unless we find a way to suspend the laws of themodynamics this is just a stupid political soundbite that is pointless and causes a lot of the "why bother" approach. Unless there is some huge technological leap in the next 15 years (and then 15 years to roll it out), if you believe the worst forecasts, we are all fucked. It would be far better for the extremists to agree to sensible actions that may be achievable and try to take people with you. Not shout at them in the comfort of western democracies that won't shoot them to shut them up. The world cannot even agree to cut emissions in line with Kyoto or Paris - let alone net zero. If the world is to go into crisis, then those countries that have taken the right steps now - lower populations, more self sufficiency (power, food, infrastructure) may survive. Those that do not will probably be swept away - not by climate but by the inevitable inter-region / inter-country conflict that resource issues will cause. We in the west are terribly naive to think that China have our best interests at heart. No they have their own and it is about time we adopted the same approach. Like Ed, this is no way personal v you racing. I know you feel very strongly about the climate and I respect that. I also feel very frustrated about the environment in general (not just the climate) and know that some of my views on that will never get traction - like a global one child per family policy starting tomorrow.
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