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Post by PG on Dec 16, 2019 10:51:25 GMT
To be fair Rouge One was a good spin off - how the Death Star plans were stolen for Star Wars - and a story that was ripe to be told. Yes: and how ridiculous did those stormtroopers look with those red patches on their faces? The other thing that has never been explained, is how Stormtroopers had evolved from a clone army (in one of Episodes 1-3, can't remember which) to an army of normal people and even a woman in charge. Or did they just decide that an army of white, cloned males was all a bit "non-woke" so just did it and hoped nobody noticed?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 16, 2019 11:15:06 GMT
Yes: and how ridiculous did those stormtroopers look with those red patches on their faces? The other thing that has never been explained, is how Stormtroopers had evolved from a clone army (in one of Episodes 1-3, can't remember which) to an army of normal people and even a woman in charge. Or did they just decide that an army of white, cloned males was all a bit "non-woke" so just did it and hoped nobody noticed? Cloning Stormtroopers produced an army of uniform combatants that acted as a a cohesive unit and in large set piece battles triumphed over Rebel forces. Once the struggle descended into asymmetrical warfare the Empire realised that it needed to introduce an element of individuality, troopers who could think outside the box, and match their opponents so they moved to an army of orphans and forced conscripts, raised to be Stormtroopers.
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Post by franki68 on Dec 16, 2019 12:25:57 GMT
I remember my dad taking me to see Star Wars when it came out in 1977 (?). I was 12 and came out thinking it was the best film I've ever seen. I still think Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are great movies for all ages. Return of the Jedi (aka - The Care Bears movies) started a downward trajectory which I don't think the subsequent movies ever recovered from. The first two though are up there with the best. this basically,went crap after empire.
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Post by PG on Dec 17, 2019 11:58:50 GMT
The other thing that has never been explained, is how Stormtroopers had evolved from a clone army (in one of Episodes 1-3, can't remember which) to an army of normal people and even a woman in charge. Or did they just decide that an army of white, cloned males was all a bit "non-woke" so just did it and hoped nobody noticed? Cloning Stormtroopers produced an army of uniform combatants that acted as a a cohesive unit and in large set piece battles triumphed over Rebel forces. Once the struggle descended into asymmetrical warfare the Empire realised that it needed to introduce an element of individuality, troopers who could think outside the box, and match their opponents so they moved to an army of orphans and forced conscripts, raised to be Stormtroopers. Of course. That makes absolute sense.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 17, 2019 12:11:34 GMT
Cloning Stormtroopers produced an army of uniform combatants that acted as a a cohesive unit and in large set piece battles triumphed over Rebel forces. Once the struggle descended into asymmetrical warfare the Empire realised that it needed to introduce an element of individuality, troopers who could think outside the box, and match their opponents so they moved to an army of orphans and forced conscripts, raised to be Stormtroopers. Of course. That makes absolute sense. Does it? I made it up on the spot. I actually have no idea.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 12:22:46 GMT
More of a Trekkie but I actually prefer the modern take on the series. No idea if the rumour of more coming is evidence but I hope it happens.
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Post by rodge on Dec 22, 2019 5:20:47 GMT
Favourite documentary/ series. Hmm, Band of Brothers is one of mine. Loved The West Wing too. Some series especially the first 2, had the best writing I’ve come across.
There are others. The Newsroom was also brilliant- Aaron Sorkin again.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 14:24:45 GMT
I was talking about factual programming!
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Post by rodge on Dec 22, 2019 19:27:18 GMT
I was talking about factual programming! That’s a thing eh? 😂😂😂 Been enjoying some of the series on National Geographic and have always enjoyed anything David Attenborough has made. Bringing the technology into the last 2 decades has brought his programs to another level.
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Post by Tim on Dec 23, 2019 11:39:14 GMT
I watched the whole series of 'The Vietnam War' on Netflix. It was very good and in depth and came across as unbiased while reviewing the reasons the Yanks got involved and stayed in. The final episode was hard to watch in places as they were talking to veterans and people who had lost family. The Vietnamese communists they had interviewed throughout were quite blunt about the disappointment of the aftermath too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 8:53:43 GMT
A brief resurrection - the BFI guide to TWAW is at pains to explain how Jeremy Isaacs was influenced by the Beeb's The Great War, mostly in what to avoid. His objections were that the earlier series was more a military history and didn't tell the tales of ordinary people and soldiers, that it seemed jingoistic in part, used artificial footage, failed to ensure that footage used depicted what it was supposed to, excessive (and fucking awful) background music etc etc.
We've almost finished The Great War now, and it's readily apparent how much better TWAW was, in no small part because TGW showed how not to do it. Mrs 12th remarked that they feel as separate in time as the wars they cover, not just the nine years that actually split them.
A section in last night's did show two soldiers talking about how broken they were come 1917 - one as far as sticking a leg under an approaching vehicle but not quite being able to make himself leave it there - then it went on to a load of voiceover about how for most of the soldiers the camaraderie made it the best time of their lives. I call utter bollocks on that one.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 8, 2020 9:08:24 GMT
One thing to remember about WW1 soldiers was that even compared to their WW2 counterparts their life at home was such utter shite that being housed, fed and watered in the trenches was in many cases better than whatever hovel they lived in at home. The fighting and seeing gore stuff was the bit that tempered that but then there was free medical care for horrible injuries, which if happened in a mine or factory was not as readily available. Let us not forget that the poets and diary keepers that recorded much of our common knowledge of WW1 had been privileged in their home life to the extent that they could read and write - one suspects that many from the rat holes of the UK weren't in a mad rush to go back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 9:22:08 GMT
The series does present home as having been dire by modern standards, but with Ypres, the Somme, Passchendaele etc I'm not persuaded that many preferred the trenches.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 8, 2020 9:33:59 GMT
A brief resurrection - the BFI guide to TWAW is at pains to explain how Jeremy Isaacs was influenced by the Beeb's The Great War, mostly in what to avoid. His objections were that the earlier series was more a military history and didn't tell the tales of ordinary people and soldiers, that it seemed jingoistic in part, used artificial footage, failed to ensure that footage used depicted what it was supposed to, excessive (and fucking awful) background music etc etc. We've almost finished The Great War now, and it's readily apparent how much better TWAW was, in no small part because TGW showed how not to do it. Mrs 12th remarked that they feel as separate in time as the wars they cover, not just the nine years that actually split them. A section in last night's did show two soldiers talking about how broken they were come 1917 - one as far as sticking a leg under an approaching vehicle but not quite being able to make himself leave it there - then it went on to a load of voiceover about how for most of the soldiers the camaraderie made it the best time of their lives. I call utter bollocks on that one. You have to remember that in WW1 actual fighting the enemy was the exception, not the norm. British soldiers were rotated regularly, spent about 5-8 days at the front before dropping back into the reserve trenches for few days and then back for R&R for a couple of weeks. They'd then move back to the reserve trenches for a few days before returning to the front to take over from battalions moving back. This was necessary to preserve moral and maintain fighting fitness. If you were a miner from the North East, someone who had probably never been no more than 25-50 miles from home and spent 6 days a week lying on your side in an 18" seam with a pickaxe, being paid on what you actually dug out, then army life, rations, and camaraderie of fighting for a common cause would seem not too bad. It's maybe why Newcastle raised more battalions than any other city outside London (19 of over 1000 men each). Your chances of becoming a casualty (killed, missing or wounded) were 10% each year, so 90% returned home relatively unscathed. I say relatively as I had relatives that suffered the rest of their lives with what we would now call PTSD. A walk around any graveyard near here will yield reminders of pit disasters that occurred with monotonous regularity through the early part of the 20th century.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 10:03:44 GMT
I wonder what percentage of those enlisted were pit workers? Otherwise it's a cherry-picked argument. I know relatively little about WW1, but having sat through the first 19 episodes I feel rather more informed - it looks like Hades to me. I am not saying I am necessarily right, but bear in mind that the statement made in the series also includes every part of a soldier's life - including after the war. Things did get better even for those whose lives were shit beforehand.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 8, 2020 10:25:44 GMT
I don't think anyone denies that battles like Wipers [sic] were terrible but whilst there were 130,000 allied casualties at the first battle there were over five million men that weren't killed or injured but still being fed, clothed and housed over the same time period.
As to miners in WW1: there were a lot of them because (a) they could dig and (b) they "didn't mind" (or were used to) crawling through a tunnel and laying explosives under the enemy lines.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 8, 2020 11:03:13 GMT
I wonder what percentage of those enlisted were pit workers? Otherwise it's a cherry-picked argument. I know relatively little about WW1, but having sat through the first 19 episodes I feel rather more informed - it looks like Hades to me. I am not saying I am necessarily right, but bear in mind that the statement made in the series also includes every part of a soldier's life - including after the war. Things did get better even for those whose lives were shit beforehand. There was really only the pits and the shipyards to choose from - and many shipyard workers, such as boilermakers, were classed as skilled workers, needed to build battleships. 60,000 men and boys were employed in the mines in Northumberland so there was plenty to choose from. I'd question that things got much better when they came back with up to 70% unemployment - the Jarrow Crusade is testament to it being arguably worse.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 12:47:36 GMT
I'd rather be out of work than gassed, shelled etc!
To be honest, the notion of people looking forward to it and appreciating what they were going to be gaining is exactly the mindset described in new arrivals at the front. It's marked how often the series comments on how shocked they were by the state of those who'd been there a while. As the series had just covered that again (at Passchendaele they lost 3,000 a day in fatalities alone) and given testimony of two soldiers who'd got to the end of their ability to cope, to then throw in the line about 'best days of your lives' seemed improbable, to say the least. Come to think of it, they'd also done desertion, courts martial and shooting those who wouldn't advance too.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 8, 2020 12:58:11 GMT
Often future generations' opinion on a conflict are formed by those who wrote about it afterwards. To Germans WW1 it was the great betrayal, the French wrote about it as the glorious victory to save the country. In Britain we had the war poets, who wrote powerfully and coined the (false) claim of lions being led by donkeys, which has stuck and formed the basis of how the English speaking world viewed the conflict.
I'm minded of Lord Flasheart in Blackadder "Just because I can give multiple orgasms to the furniture just by sitting on it, doesn't mean that I'm not sick of this damn war: the blood, the noise, the endless poetry."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 14:38:17 GMT
Many lines from that series have sprung to mind whilst watching the TGW!
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 8, 2020 15:20:50 GMT
"We're right behind you..." "About 35 miles behind you!"
I always think about this as the son of a naval man. I was always raised that the men and the officers were as one on a ship to a larger extent than they were in the trenches. If the ship was hit by a shell it affected everyone and if the officers got above themselves they might not make the next port....
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 8, 2020 15:37:15 GMT
"We're right behind you..." "About 35 miles behind you!" I always think about this as the son of a naval man. I was always raised that the men and the officers were as one on a ship to a larger extent than they were in the trenches. If the ship was hit by a shell it affected everyone and if the officers got above themselves they might not make the next port.... 200 Generals were killed or wounded in WW1, with most visiting their troops every day. 10 Myths about WW1 debunked: www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 16:08:47 GMT
Apparently a fair few seen as overly aggressive officers in Vietnam were 'fragged' by their own men when casualties got more than they were going to accept. Quite a few examples even on the web but one of the rendering blokes I used to know was a tunnel rat in Vietnam and he told me it happened a fair bit. www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/War/fragging.htm
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Post by Alex on Apr 8, 2020 20:46:37 GMT
I’ve never seen Star Wars (or Star Trek for that matter) The last time I watched Star Wars was on VHS when I was a kid! Just started watching them now on Disney+ to see what the fuss is about. Don't think I've seen The World At War either.
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Post by scouse on Apr 9, 2020 8:41:05 GMT
It's easy to get bogged down in the casualty statistics for WW1, but the battle for Normandy in WW2 produced damn well as near as many casualties but at least had the result of reaching it's objectives.
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