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Post by racingteatray on Sept 4, 2019 19:14:29 GMT
We shall all be armchair constitutional experts by the end of this. Who would ever have thought it.
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Post by michael on Sept 4, 2019 19:40:44 GMT
I’ve just heard something about the May deal being back from the dead - it is getting to the point an election should be called on the condition not one of the existing MPs can stand.
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Post by LandieMark on Sept 4, 2019 19:58:09 GMT
This is what I don't get. If an MP defects, then surely a bi-election should be called?
Big example tonight locally. Rory Stuart MP votes against government. His constituents voted leave so he goes against his constituents who voted for him. Regardless of how you voted, this stinks. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents the last time I looked.
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Post by scouse on Sept 4, 2019 20:34:26 GMT
We shall all be armchair constitutional experts by the end of this. Who would ever have thought it. One thing this whole mess might bring about is a greater understanding among the general public of how our parliament is supposed to work. Let’s face it, 3 years ago no one gave a stuff. We knew we were going to stiffed regardless and in future we still will, but maybe we’d have a better understanding of how and by whom we are getting stiffed.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 4, 2019 21:21:32 GMT
This is what I don't get. If an MP defects, then surely a bi-election should be called? Big example tonight locally. Rory Stuart MP votes against government. His constituents voted leave so he goes against his constituents who voted for him. Regardless of how you voted, this stinks. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents the last time I looked. By-election...although...
Plenty of examples like Rory the other way around. Here in my constituency, it was 70/30 in favour of Remain and yet our Tory MP, Greg Hands, has been a staunch supporter of Brexit.
MPs are meant to represent their constituents but the argument goes that in a Parliamentary democracy like ours, they aren't meant to simply act as delegates.
See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation
The famous quote on the point is Burke's from the late 1700s where he said "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
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Post by LandieMark on Sept 5, 2019 7:00:28 GMT
That explains it nicely, thanks. I think a great deal of MPs are hiding behind that principle to further their own beliefs, however.
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Post by Tim on Sept 5, 2019 8:22:18 GMT
As I said earlier Scotland voted to remain, so how are the Scottish Tory MPs representing their constituents?
Ken Clarke's local constituency leader got interviewed on the radio last night. He agrees that KC getting the bullet is the right thing to do because he voted against the Prime Minister. That'd be the current PM who, 6 months ago, voted against the then PM, probably more than once. Are these people senile that they've forgotten so quickly? Plus what about the 50 years of sterling service KC has provided?
I thought Nicholas Soames' speech was very good and got a clear point across to the assorted rabble sitting on the front bench.
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Post by scouse on Sept 5, 2019 8:34:33 GMT
This is what I don't get. If an MP defects, then surely a bi-election should be called? Big example tonight locally. Rory Stuart MP votes against government. His constituents voted leave so he goes against his constituents who voted for him. Regardless of how you voted, this stinks. MPs are supposed to represent their constituents the last time I looked. By-election...although...
Plenty of examples like Rory the other way around. Here in my constituency, it was 70/30 in favour of Remain and yet our Tory MP, Greg Hands, has been a staunch supporter of Brexit.
MPs are meant to represent their constituents but the argument goes that in a Parliamentary democracy like ours, they aren't meant to simply act as delegates.
See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation
The famous quote on the point is Burke's from the late 1700s where he said "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
Which was a fine principle in the days before universal schooling, let alone suffrage, however Burke never saw the rise of David Lammy, Daine Abbot, Jess Phillips, Anna Soubray, John Bercow, Michael Gove etc etc.
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Post by scouse on Sept 5, 2019 8:36:47 GMT
As I said earlier Scotland voted to remain, so how are the Scottish Tory MPs representing their constituents? Ken Clarke's local constituency leader got interviewed on the radio last night. He agrees that KC getting the bullet is the right thing to do because he voted against the Prime Minister. That'd be the current PM who, 6 months ago, voted against the then PM, probably more than once. Are these people senile that they've forgotten so quickly? Plus what about the 50 years of sterling service KC has provided? I thought Nicholas Soames' speech was very good and got a clear point across to the assorted rabble sitting on the front bench. Ken "I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe." Clarke. The whips made clear before the vote that they were taking the vote as a vote of confidence in the government.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 10:16:53 GMT
By-election...although...
Plenty of examples like Rory the other way around. Here in my constituency, it was 70/30 in favour of Remain and yet our Tory MP, Greg Hands, has been a staunch supporter of Brexit.
MPs are meant to represent their constituents but the argument goes that in a Parliamentary democracy like ours, they aren't meant to simply act as delegates.
See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation
The famous quote on the point is Burke's from the late 1700s where he said "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
Which was a fine principle in the days before universal schooling, let alone suffrage, however Burke never saw the rise of David Lammy, Daine Abbot, Jess Phillips, Anna Soubray, John Bercow, Michael Gove etc etc. Interesting selection. Are you picking them because you doubt their judgment or because they don't represent their constituents views?
On the latter point:
In both Lammy's and Phillips' constituencies, the remain vote was over 75%, so they look aligned. Phillips' constituency went for Leave, so she's at odds with them on Brexit. However, Lammy, Phillips and Abbott were all returned in 2017 with vast and increased majorities, suggesting their constituents generally approve of them.
Likewise Bercow represents a Remain seat and has a large majority, and Michael Gove represents a Leave seat and has a large majority.
The only one who looks a real outlier is Soubry, who has a tiny majority and represents a leave constituency (although one split 52/48 like the nation).
Surely the biggest offender is Boris Johnson himself. Now he does represent a leave constituency with a smallish majority (5,000), but he really is entirely self-serving. Anyone who thinks Johnson gives a genuine thought to the cares and concerns of his constituents in Uxbridge is deluding themselves utterly. Being an MP is simply a route to power for him.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Sept 5, 2019 10:17:51 GMT
As I said earlier Scotland voted to remain, so how are the Scottish Tory MPs representing their constituents? Scotland voted before that to remain part of the union. Therefore, did Scotland not vote as part of the wider union in 2016? I know this argument could probably go either way, but that's my take on it. One doesn't cancel out the other.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Sept 5, 2019 10:21:40 GMT
That explains it nicely, thanks. I think a great deal of MPs are hiding behind that principle to further their own beliefs, however. There are quite a few making lofty claims about serving their constituents but, personally, I don't place a lot of weight on what they say. I'm getting rather sick of the whole sorry debacle.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 10:33:28 GMT
Johnson's own brother has just resigned as a Tory MP and Minister.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 10:54:27 GMT
I was informed by the tory chairman that, "MP's are self employed therefor they can choose to represent, or not, any constituent or views thereof". Essentially they do what they want when they want to.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 11:11:12 GMT
Yes, the Burkean approach has long been the one the Tories followed.
That is now of course being jettisoned like much else in a desperate attempt to see off the Faragistes.
Boris may accuse Corbyn of being "frit" but it has the air of hypocrisy about it (as with nearly everything Boris does or says - very much a case with him of "do as I say, not do as I do").
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Post by scouse on Sept 5, 2019 11:12:53 GMT
Which was a fine principle in the days before universal schooling, let alone suffrage, however Burke never saw the rise of David Lammy, Daine Abbot, Jess Phillips, Anna Soubray, John Bercow, Michael Gove etc etc. Interesting selection. Are you picking them because you doubt their judgment or because they don't represent their constituents views?
On the latter point:
In both Lammy's and Phillips' constituencies, the remain vote was over 75%, so they look aligned. Phillips' constituency went for Leave, so she's at odds with them on Brexit. However, Lammy, Phillips and Abbott were all returned in 2017 with vast and increased majorities, suggesting their constituents generally approve of them.
Likewise Bercow represents a Remain seat and has a large majority, and Michael Gove represents a Leave seat and has a large majority.
The only one who looks a real outlier is Soubry, who has a tiny majority and represents a leave constituency (although one split 52/48 like the nation).
Surely the biggest offender is Boris Johnson himself. Now he does represent a leave constituency with a smallish majority (5,000), but he really is entirely self-serving. Anyone who thinks Johnson gives a genuine thought to the cares and concerns of his constituents in Uxbridge is deluding themselves utterly. Being an MP is simply a route to power for him.
I picked on them because i think they are fucking awful/lying/race-baiting/drunken/useless politicians.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 11:39:29 GMT
That's a spot-on description of Nigel Farage!
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Post by scouse on Sept 5, 2019 11:50:33 GMT
True, but he aint a proper MP. Did you see they kip of that Phillips woman last night? FML she is unhinged. Some dumb bint of an Observer journalist wrote on twitter that she had 'shamed the government benches into pin drop silence over their cowardliness & hypocrisy. Awesome in the original sense of the word of'. errr no love, it was the embarrassed silence that people have in the presence of the mentally ill having a melt down in public...
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 12:05:51 GMT
True, but he aint a proper MP. Did you see they kip of that Phillips woman last night? FML she is unhinged. Some dumb bint of an Observer journalist wrote on twitter that she had 'shamed the government benches into pin drop silence over their cowardliness & hypocrisy. Awesome in the original sense of the word of'. errr no love, it was the embarrassed silence that people have in the presence of the mentally ill having a melt down in public... No, I didn't. What did she say?
For a Labour MP, in the past she has usually sounded pretty sane to me!
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Post by scouse on Sept 5, 2019 12:09:19 GMT
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2019 12:19:52 GMT
It's more than hypercritical of her to say that when she's stood and watched her colleagues bullied out the Labour party for the crime of being Jewish.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 12:33:47 GMT
I can't watch that video on my browser, what does she say?
My recollection is that Jess Phillips has been loudly critical of the Labour leadership over the anti-Semitism issue.
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Post by Tim on Sept 5, 2019 12:36:42 GMT
As I said earlier Scotland voted to remain, so how are the Scottish Tory MPs representing their constituents? Scotland voted before that to remain part of the union. Therefore, did Scotland not vote as part of the wider union in 2016? I know this argument could probably go either way, but that's my take on it. One doesn't cancel out the other. One of the things often repeated in the 2014 (Christ, is it really that long ago) referendum was that Scotland's only hope of staying in the EU was to remain part of the Union. That worked out well, didn't it! I'm sure there's probably plenty of footage and articles from that time from people who we now know are Brexiteers repeating that mantra.
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Post by Tim on Sept 5, 2019 12:40:30 GMT
I can't watch that video on my browser, what does she say? My recollection is that Jess Phillips has been loudly critical of the Labour leadership over the anti-Semitism issue. I watched it on BBC Parliament (oh no, I've been brainwashed by the Left ) and I'm fairly sure she referred to the Labour purges. She came across as being fairly impashioned in her views (of which some I agree with but far from all) and also as being fairly normally educated. It didn't occur to me that she was mentally ill but then perhaps I'm not as aware of these things as Scouse is?
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2019 14:18:15 GMT
I can't watch that video on my browser, what does she say? My recollection is that Jess Phillips has been loudly critical of the Labour leadership over the anti-Semitism issue. She's stuck by her leader, though. I can't stand Jess Philips, she's a hypocrite on many an issue.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 14:25:15 GMT
I can't watch that video on my browser, what does she say? My recollection is that Jess Phillips has been loudly critical of the Labour leadership over the anti-Semitism issue. She's stuck by her leader, though. I can't stand Jess Philips, she's a hypocrite on many an issue. That may be so. I confess to an ignorance on her views on most things.
If sticking by a bad Leader is a cardinal sin, then there are approximately 287 Tory MPs who are currently guilty as charged. And more, if you consider that Mrs May was pretty awful as well.
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2019 14:37:48 GMT
Boris Johnson may be a lot of things but he isn't an antisemite and I wouldn't dream of accusing those who pursue Brexit of being in the same category.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 14:52:30 GMT
Two replies to that:
1. Corbyn is a dreadful leader irrespective of whether or not he is an anti-Semite.
2. It would seem to me that anti-Semitism is a form of racism. Farage strikes me as a racist and Boris has some work to do to dispel doubts arounds the casual racism he has a tendency to dispense. All that talk about watermelon smiles, letter-boxes and piccaninnies...
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Post by Roadsterstu on Sept 5, 2019 15:16:14 GMT
That worked out well, didn't it! That applies to pretty much everything currently happening!
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2019 15:56:24 GMT
Interesting quote from Otto von Bismarck on Dominic Cummings' own blog-site:
"Politics is always like visiting a country one does not know with people whom one does not know and whose reactions one cannot predict. When one person puts a hand in his pocket, the other person is already drawing his gun, and when he pulls the trigger the first one fires and it is too late then to ask whether the requirements of common law with regard to self-defence apply, and since common law is not effective in politics people are very, very quick to adopt an aggressive defence."
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