|
Post by michael on Aug 30, 2019 12:31:36 GMT
And there was me thinking we are in this mess because an arrogant Tory PM unwisely chose to ask voters a very dangerous question in a vain attempt to restore unity to his party. I don't think he had a choice, the noise about Europe had become too much and something had to be done. I think the arrogance sits entirely with the EU who could have reformed in so much as allowing controls on migration which would have solved Brexit and a lot of the anti-EU sentiment around Europe. It's popular and easy to blame Cameron but to ignore the failings of the EU in this is kidding nobody but yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Aug 30, 2019 12:36:39 GMT
I agree but sadly it would get in the way of their annual freebie fact-finding trips to sunnier climes..... That's priti cynical of you...
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Aug 30, 2019 13:00:14 GMT
And there was me thinking we are in this mess because an arrogant Tory PM unwisely chose to ask voters a very dangerous question in a vain attempt to restore unity to his party. I don't think he had a choice, the noise about Europe had become too much and something had to be done. I think the arrogance sits entirely with the EU who could have reformed in so much as allowing controls on migration which would have solved Brexit and a lot of the anti-EU sentiment around Europe. It's popular and easy to blame Cameron but to ignore the failings of the EU in this is kidding nobody but yourself. I don't agree with you. The noise around Europe simply didn't exist to any significant degree outside a small hardcore of Tory Eurosceptics. All the polls prior to the announcement of a referendum on the topic showed that the EU was nowhere near the top of most voters' chief concerns.
Only when the referendum was announced, and sly but well-targeted campaigning started stoking largely latent concerns on immigration and whatnot, did it start to become anything like a significant concern.
And now of course it is the polarising topic to end them all.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Aug 30, 2019 13:18:26 GMT
I don't agree with you. The noise around Europe simply didn't exist to any significant degree outside a small hardcore of Tory Eurosceptics. All the polls prior to the announcement of a referendum on the topic showed that the EU was nowhere near the top of most voters' chief concerns.
Only when the referendum was announced, and sly but well-targeted campaigning started stoking largely latent concerns on immigration and whatnot, did it start to become anything like a significant concern.
And now of course it is the polarising topic to end them all.
UKIP won the 2014 EU elections with nearly 30% of the vote. UKIP got the third largest share of votes in the 2015 election, almost certainly reduced thanks to Cameron's promise to hold a referendum. The referendum was announced because of concerns about Europe and it's not just this country, France, Italy, Holland, Sweden, the Netherlands, I could go on, are all experiencing rises in anti EU parties. Had the EU bothered to look at itself and seen a need to change then the whole of Europe could of benefited and been on board with the project.
|
|
|
Post by Roadrunner on Aug 30, 2019 13:27:22 GMT
I don't agree with you. The noise around Europe simply didn't exist to any significant degree outside a small hardcore of Tory Eurosceptics. All the polls prior to the announcement of a referendum on the topic showed that the EU was nowhere near the top of most voters' chief concerns.
Only when the referendum was announced, and sly but well-targeted campaigning started stoking largely latent concerns on immigration and whatnot, did it start to become anything like a significant concern.
And now of course it is the polarising topic to end them all.
UKIP won the 2014 EU elections with nearly 30% of the vote. UKIP got the third largest share of votes in the 2015 election, almost certainly reduced thanks to Cameron's promise to hold a referendum. The referendum was announced because of concerns about Europe and it's not just this country, France, Italy, Holland, Sweden, the Netherlands, I could go on, are all experiencing rises in anti EU parties. Had the EU bothered to look at itself and seen a need to change then the whole of Europe could of benefited and been on board with the project. I agree. Had the EU given Cameron a better deal before the referendum, then none of this Brexit nonsense would be happening. There undoubtedly was a growing tide of dissatisfaction with the EU in general and migration in particular. Cameron chose not to put his head in the sand, the EU did.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Aug 30, 2019 13:31:10 GMT
I don't dispute that the EU is imperfect and needs to change. But to lay the blame at the EU's door is rather disingenuous.
In large part there was a growing wave of dissatisfaction for two primary reasons:
1. The likes of Boris and Farage had spent decades peddling their pernicious populist versions of reality with a "truth be damned" approach to facts.
2. Successive UK governments have always been quick to claim the credit for anything good and quicker to shift blame for anything bad to the usefully faceless and foreign bureaucrats in the EU.
So, no, I'm afraid that this is very much a domestic mess of the Tory right's creating. And it is why I shall not vote for the Tory party again for the foreseeable future. Actions must have consequences and I refuse to drink the Kool-Aid on this one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 15:08:06 GMT
Very simplistic and misses the 'facts'. There has for a long time been a dissatisfaction within the eu nations, it is absolutely right to blame the eu. Who else can we blame for the clusterfuck that has been the eu for a very long time?
"Truth be damned approach to facts".? Only when the facts cannot be skewed to your way of thinking. Boris and Farage peddling pernicious populist versions of reality? Seriously? Considering that Boris did not decide to follow the leave route until just before he climbed on the wagon and said what he was going to do. You cannot kick someone for both sides of the coin.
I understand you have a view but frankly you are sounding more and more desperate for people to swallow the same old crap Cameron did and it does you no favours. Do you think you will tell us what to think and we will just climb on board/change our minds, because YOU say so?
Say what you like, I do not see the point in even reading the same old crap. Have a very nice trip away and I hope the rest of the year does you good.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Aug 30, 2019 15:12:04 GMT
"Truth be damned approach to facts".? Only when the facts cannot be skewed to your way of thinking. Boris and Farage peddling pernicious populist versions of reality? Seriously? Considering that Boris did not decide to follow the leave route until just before he climbed on the wagon and said what he was going to do. You cannot kick someone for both sides of the coin. You can't be serious. Even Boris would not dispute that he had a successful journalistic career as a Brussels correspondent during which he was shown to have completely invented a number of stories that were designed to show the EU in a bad light.
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Aug 30, 2019 15:22:04 GMT
Very simplistic and misses the 'facts'. There has for a long time been a dissatisfaction within the eu nations, it is absolutely right to blame the eu. Who else can we blame for the clusterfuck that has been the eu for a very long time? "Truth be damned approach to facts".? Only when the facts cannot be skewed to your way of thinking. Boris and Farage peddling pernicious populist versions of reality? Seriously? Considering that Boris did not decide to follow the leave route until just before he climbed on the wagon and said what he was going to do. You cannot kick someone for both sides of the coin. I understand you have a view but frankly you are sounding more and more desperate for people to swallow the same old crap Cameron did and it does you no favours. Do you think you will tell us what to think and we will just climb on board/change our minds, because YOU say so? Say what you like, I do not see the point in even reading the same old crap. Have a very nice trip away and I hope the rest of the year does you good. Mike, I think you are out of order with that post. You are entitled to your views in the same way as Racing is entitled to his. However what you are peddling is the unknown and you are in no way able to guarantee that following the unknown path will lead to riches and success instead of abject failure. No-one knows what will happen and we will all just need to wait and see. I know that Racing will graciously accept he was wrong if everything turns out rosy. I just hope that Brexiteers will do the same and also take responsibility if they have got it wrong. In the meantime we should all be able to make our views known and I hope that a degree of respect can be afforded to everyone regardless of which side of the Brexit fence they sit on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 15:42:45 GMT
It could turn out rosy, but that won't mean that the risk was worth taking!
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Aug 30, 2019 15:46:41 GMT
It could turn out rosy, but that won't mean that the risk was worth taking! But coming from an IFA background where risk assessment is an essential part of your job, you understand the difference.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 8:15:48 GMT
The whole reason I make that point/joke! If I came home and told Mrs 12th I'd bet the house on a horse running in three years' time (and the outcome of which would take a decade or so to be fully known), I doubt that an eventual win would make her feel it had all been worthwhile.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 16:00:43 GMT
I think the trouble with stuff like this is people will only read news articles that confirm their own point of view on the subject. For instance, the BBC is famously anti Brexit, so if you only read news articles on their website your view will be confirmed/swayed by the skewed way they report anything Brexit related.
There are plenty of reports stating that Germany could be entering a period of what could be described as a (mini) recession and that industry leaders there are pressuring Merkel into persuading other EU countries to agree to our demands for a deal. It's literally only a few twats in Brussels and Macron who want to play hardball because they think the United States of Europe will implode without us. Macron is running scared because he thinks Frexit is on the cards due to his population not wanting to be propping up all the poor EU countries if Germany enters a recession and Germany themselves won't want to create any trade wars with us if it results in said recession having a deeper dip.
|
|
|
Post by Stuntman on Aug 31, 2019 18:13:37 GMT
I still think it's a bad idea for the United Kingdom to leave the EU, but I accept that a significant amount of the population thought and voted otherwise (indeed, the majority of those who voted in the 2016 referendum).
But I also think that Parliament very properly should be the body that decides how (and possibly therefore indeed whether) we should leave. If there is no agreed deal that Parliament will approve, I think it is entirely reasonable for Parliament to then pass a motion that the UK should not leave the EU without a deal.
I suspect that this eventuality will happen; that is, the current composition of Parliament will not allow the UK to leave the EU with no deal. Therefore we will either end up with an agreed deal before 31 October and then leave the EU, or we won't actually leave on 31 October but will swiftly have a vote of no confidence in the Government followed by a General Election.
Who knows what the electorate will return to Parliament then.
|
|
|
Post by cbeaks1 on Aug 31, 2019 18:26:17 GMT
Probably Nigel Farage flying a Spitfire while downing real ale in a tankard, eating beef wellington.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Sept 2, 2019 8:25:34 GMT
I think the trouble with stuff like this is people will only read news articles that confirm their own point of view on the subject. For instance, the BBC is famously anti Brexit, so if you only read news articles on their website your view will be confirmed/swayed by the skewed way they report anything Brexit related. There are plenty of reports stating that Germany could be entering a period of what could be described as a (mini) recession and that industry leaders there are pressuring Merkel into persuading other EU countries to agree to our demands for a deal. It's literally only a few twats in Brussels and Macron who want to play hardball because they think the United States of Europe will implode without us. Macron is running scared because he thinks Frexit is on the cards due to his population not wanting to be propping up all the poor EU countries if Germany enters a recession and Germany themselves won't want to create any trade wars with us if it results in said recession having a deeper dip. Germany are possibly entering a period of recession courtesy of Donald Trump and his tariff antics. You say the BBC are 'famously anti-Brexit' but how do you know that for certain? I mean, you realise that the Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc are all blatantly pro-leave, don't you?
|
|
|
Post by michael on Sept 2, 2019 8:28:33 GMT
I think the trouble with stuff like this is people will only read news articles that confirm their own point of view on the subject. For instance, the BBC is famously anti Brexit, so if you only read news articles on their website your view will be confirmed/swayed by the skewed way they report anything Brexit related. There are plenty of reports stating that Germany could be entering a period of what could be described as a (mini) recession and that industry leaders there are pressuring Merkel into persuading other EU countries to agree to our demands for a deal. It's literally only a few twats in Brussels and Macron who want to play hardball because they think the United States of Europe will implode without us. Macron is running scared because he thinks Frexit is on the cards due to his population not wanting to be propping up all the poor EU countries if Germany enters a recession and Germany themselves won't want to create any trade wars with us if it results in said recession having a deeper dip. Germany are possibly entering a period of recession courtesy of Donald Trump and his tariff antics. You say the BBC are 'famously anti-Brexit' but how do you know that for certain? I mean, you realise that the Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc are all blatantly pro-leave, don't you? The difference is the BBC is the national broadcaster available for free in every home.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Sept 2, 2019 8:30:42 GMT
It's not free in my home!
|
|
|
Post by michael on Sept 2, 2019 8:35:51 GMT
It is if you listen only to the radio!*
*technicality, you know what I mean.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 2, 2019 8:53:16 GMT
Germany are possibly entering a period of recession courtesy of Donald Trump and his tariff antics. You say the BBC are 'famously anti-Brexit' but how do you know that for certain? I mean, you realise that the Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc are all blatantly pro-leave, don't you? I don't find the BBC anti-Brexit. In fact I often have to defend it against my wife who thinks it is pro-Brexit.
Her beef is that every time they do a vox pop on the news, it tends to major on interviewing over-50s in regional bits of England who are stoutly pro-Brexit, leavened with only a few words, usually from non-natives, on the opposite perspective, thereby giving a misleading impression that the native public at large is overwhelmingly pro-Brexit.
I think the attitude that the BBC is pro-Brexit comes from the fact that it does what journalists should do - ie ask searching and uncomfortable questions and demand genuine answers, not provide an unquestioning echo chamber for bias confirmation and regime support, and this upsets people who don't want their views and prejudices challenged.
Take Emily Maitlis on Newsnight. Now she quite clearly thinks Brexit is an almighty cock-up that's getting worse by the day. But while yes she aggressively skewers evasive Brexiteers on Newsnight, by God she also gives fumbling Remainers an aggressive savaging too. Which is absolutely correct.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 2, 2019 12:30:10 GMT
|
|
|
Post by scouse on Sept 2, 2019 15:47:48 GMT
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and for Bliar it's just another chance to sure up some support to be president of Europe should Brexit be stopped.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 2, 2019 16:45:58 GMT
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and for Bliar it's just another chance to sure up some support to be president of Europe should Brexit be stopped. Not sure I get the link there. I think it's just a former Labour PM trying to stop a wannabe Labour PM from making a strategic error.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 2, 2019 17:04:09 GMT
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and for Bliar it's just another chance to sure up some support to be president of Europe should Brexit be stopped. Not sure I get the link there. I think it's just a former Labour PM trying to stop a wannabe Labour PM from making a strategic error. Boris has laid the trap and Corbyn seems determined to walk right into it.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 2, 2019 17:05:49 GMT
Quite.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 3, 2019 13:42:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Sept 3, 2019 14:58:23 GMT
Boris has lost his majority. While he was speaking, one of his MPs got up and crossed the floor to join the LDs.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 15:10:13 GMT
Whilst anything making no deal more likely is a good thing to my mind, and this is all too serious to take lightly, I had to suppress a snigger at that!
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Sept 3, 2019 15:50:36 GMT
I haven't see it but can imagine he looked like a complete tit. If most of the population have lost all respect for most of our elected MP's then keep your head down and act with some dignity.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Sept 3, 2019 15:56:58 GMT
I haven't see it but can imagine he looked like a complete tit. If most of the population have lost all respect for most of our elected MP's then keep your head down and act with some dignity. Don't speak about Boris like that, he can't help it
|
|