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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 11:27:30 GMT
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 11, 2019 11:56:16 GMT
I can't take anything written in the Telegraph seriously any more. It doesn't even try to present a balanced view.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 12:02:19 GMT
But then again, you do not take anything said against the eu seriously, do you?
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 11, 2019 13:24:33 GMT
But then again, you do not take anything said against the eu seriously, do you? Yes I do. Because I don't take an ideological view on any of this, merely one based on the realities of the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.
I've always been clear from the beginning that if someone could explain clearly and convincingly how Britain would tangibly benefit in real terms and end up in a net better position as a direct result of Brexit (and not merely at some ill-defined point in the future when it is no longer possible to determine whether such position had anything to do with Brexit), then I could be in favour of Brexit.
However, no one has and therefore I am not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 13:59:55 GMT
I have never taken the 'Golden goose' ideal as a serious starter and it will cause a few problems early doors but I believe we can be as well off out as in. I know you see differently but that is your right. If the eu was open to reason and cutting waste would be a good start, I would have voted to remain but they aren't so I am not. The greater eu 'state' is something that has constantly been denied but they lie. The removal of the national veto, formation of a standing military and the eu national anthem. BTW, wtf is that all about? If the eu is as they say, not a nation, how on earth can they need a national anthem? Etc etc et al. The eu is heading in a direction we never signed up for and frankly the grosser eu state is a frightening monster that smacks of being a 'fourth reich'.
Just a small snippet of information the last SS unit active was made up of French nationals. Pointless fact number three million and two.
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Democracy
Aug 12, 2019 0:21:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by racingteatray on Aug 12, 2019 0:21:26 GMT
I hope I’m not alone in saying that comparing the EU to the Fourth Reich like that is really not appropriate on any level.
Apart from anything else, it does a serious disservice to the millions and millions of people who were killed by, or died fighting, the Third Reich.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 9:53:55 GMT
Not really, they are going down a similar path. The point is, where you get gung ho behaviour it almost always goes wrong. Besides, the fourth reich does not necessarily have to be NAZI in format another point is not all NAZI's were German and the two main protaginists in the eu just happen to be the two that will benefit from any greater eu state. The foruth reich comment basically covers the lack of national veto in their new manifesto and everyone else sleepwalking into a situation where they have no say in what is done in their name.
BTW, you mean the millions who fought the THIRD reich, they were after all, the NAZI's, the fourth reich is just an empire in progress.
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Post by johnc on Aug 12, 2019 9:56:06 GMT
I haven't read the full article but I wholeheartedly agree with Her Majesty. Politician's are no longer interested in the good of the country and its people but are much more interested in their own political advancement, wealth and standing in Society. If a particular policy could potentially damage them personally, they will vote against it even if it is in the best interest of the country. We really are at a dangerous cross roads in British society because you just need to look around the world at the countries where the Government does what it wants but the people think differently.
As for Brexit, the politicians couldn't have made a bigger mess of it if they tried. I met with a business owner last week who sells on the internet across the world. About 40% of his sales come from other EU countries. He has been told by Government agencies that he needs to plan but he vented his frustration at our meeting and asked "Can someone please tell me what the f*** it is I need to plan for?" What he has done is defer any decision on expanding to a new warehouse and his two most recent staff additions are on 6 month temporary contracts - he doesn't know if his EU internet sales will dry up overnight by having large tariffs and customs restrictions applied which delay and complicate delivery. The same people telling him to plan can't tell him what's going to happen. It is total madness and it is most certainly not going to be good for business. If his sales fall by 40%, my work will be significantly reduced which will impact on my profitability and potentially my staff numbers. Less profit means that he and I will have less money to spend and will pay less tax - the size of the UK economy will shrink when this is multiplied out across the country.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 10:17:20 GMT
The current crop of politicians could not run a tuck shop if they were given the staff, 100% agree with HMTQ.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 12, 2019 11:34:05 GMT
Not really, they are going down a similar path. The point is, where you get gung ho behaviour it almost always goes wrong. Besides, the fourth reich does not necessarily have to be NAZI in format another point is not all NAZI's were German and the two main protaginists in the eu just happen to be the two that will benefit from any greater eu state. The foruth reich comment basically covers the lack of national veto in their new manifesto and everyone else sleepwalking into a situation where they have no say in what is done in their name. BTW, you mean the millions who fought the THIRD reich, they were after all, the NAZI's, the fourth reich is just an empire in progress. I did! Duly corrected. In my defence, it was very late at night.
But you are choosing to use inflammatory language that implicitly compares the EU to Nazi Germany rather than any of the other less wholly repellent historical empires, all of which sought to impose their way of doing things by force.
I'm not a big one for political correctness but I'm afraid I find that wholly inappropriate.
Accuse the EU of empire-building all you like. The Americans, Chinese, Russians and Indians are all currently at it too, by the way. But there is no call or grounds for comparing it that particular empire.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 12, 2019 11:46:07 GMT
On a totally selfish note, due to the weak pound we're the busiest we've been for 4 years and have taken on 4 new staff. Every cloud and all that...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 11:57:44 GMT
Nazi Germany was expansionist at any price, either join us or we conquer you. The eu is also expansionist at any price so the comparison is conduct rather than politically based but there it is. Don't forget the eu walking all over the Greeks and forcing them into more debt, did they do that by persuasion or coercion? The uncontrolled growth of the eu has already led to a war in Ukraine. Where next? The Chinese do get called for empire building and rightly so, as do the others you mention but the topics of most current threads about politics are about the eu.
You say my language use is inflammatory but that is in the eye of the beholder, I use the representation I find most appropriate and the third reich is the major one of late.
Thanks, I will. There are grounds for comparing the eu with the NAZI's, not for everything but there are grounds. If you are not convinced of them that is your right as it is my right to use the comparison I find most appropriate.
I think I have to call a halt here but remember, when you use your right to post on any topic you like and in any way you like, others have a right to respond in a like manner. It is debate rather than a belief changing exercise. Neither of us will change our opinions after all.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 12, 2019 12:05:27 GMT
Nazi Germany was expansionist at any price, either join us or we conquer you. The eu is also expansionist at any price so the comparison is conduct rather than politically based but there it is. Don't forget the eu walking all over the Greeks and forcing them into more debt, did they do that by persuasion or coercion? The uncontrolled growth of the eu has already led to a war in Ukraine. Where next? The Chinese do get called for empire building and rightly so, as do the others you mention but the topics of most current threads about politics are about the eu. You say my language use is inflammatory but that is in the eye of the beholder, I use the representation I find most appropriate and the third reich is the major one of late. Thanks, I will. There are grounds for comparing the eu with the NAZI's, not for everything but there are grounds. If you are not convinced of them that is your right as it is my right to use the comparison I find most appropriate. I think I have to call a halt here but remember, when you use your right to post on any topic you like and in any way you like, others have a right to respond in a like manner. It is debate rather than a belief changing exercise. Neither of us will change our opinions after all. We can all say what we like mercifully, but that doesn't stop some things being perhaps unwise and reflecting badly on us for saying them, and as such don't really merit doubling-down on.
And, not for the first time of mentioning, I am prepared to change my opinion if the evidence for doing so is fact-based and persuasive.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 12, 2019 12:11:12 GMT
On a totally selfish note, due to the weak pound we're the busiest we've been for 4 years and have taken on 4 new staff. Every cloud and all that... Well indeed. On a totally selfish short-term note, but for the irritation of the longer immigration queue when travelling in Europe, I ought to be backing Boris all the way.
However, quite apart from the fact that I guess most of us think that being a citizen requires one to act with at least half an eye to the wider public good, the main problem for me is all those (chlorine-washed) chickens that I can see lurking in the background just waiting to come home and roost busily, and which worry me in the longer term.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 12, 2019 12:21:02 GMT
The chlorine washed chicken thing is a puzzler to me; people are happy to drink chlorinated water and eat chlorine washed pre-prepared salads, but not chicken. what have they got against the chooks?
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Post by PG on Aug 12, 2019 12:39:05 GMT
The chlorine washed chicken thing is a puzzler to me; people are happy to drink chlorinated water and eat chlorine washed pre-prepared salads, but not chicken. what have they got against the chooks? It sort of depends from which angle you come at the chlorine chicken issue. The US say that the amount of chlorine used is no greater, for example, that in EU mandated chlorine pre-washed salad and besides it ensures that the chicken is free of all the bacteria that uncooked chicken is pretty good at harbouring. The EU say that the chicken only has to be chlorine washed as it covers up poor hygiene standards in US chicken rearing and processing, whereas EU production standards are much higher. I suspect, as with all these things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Post by Tim on Aug 12, 2019 12:58:28 GMT
The chlorine washed chicken thing is a puzzler to me; people are happy to drink chlorinated water and eat chlorine washed pre-prepared salads, but not chicken. what have they got against the chooks? It sort of depends from which angle you come at the chlorine chicken issue. The US say that the amount of chlorine used is no greater, for example, that in EU mandated chlorine pre-washed salad and besides it ensures that the chicken is free of all the bacteria that uncooked chicken is pretty good at harbouring. The EU say that the chicken only has to be chlorine washed as it covers up poor hygiene standards in US chicken rearing and processing, whereas EU production standards are much higher. I suspect, as with all these things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Alternatively a lot of people could avoid the issue entirely and buy Quorn, etc fake chicken. If its eaten in, say, a curry you simply won't notice the difference. On those rare occasions you might actually want a nice chicken sandwich you can buy a good, expensive, well-reared one.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 12, 2019 14:14:23 GMT
The chlorine washed chicken thing is a puzzler to me; people are happy to drink chlorinated water and eat chlorine washed pre-prepared salads, but not chicken. what have they got against the chooks? Oh I simply inserted it because it seems de rigeur to mention chlorine-washing when mentioning chickens in the context of Brexit!
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 12, 2019 14:35:41 GMT
It sort of depends from which angle you come at the chlorine chicken issue. The US say that the amount of chlorine used is no greater, for example, that in EU mandated chlorine pre-washed salad and besides it ensures that the chicken is free of all the bacteria that uncooked chicken is pretty good at harbouring. The EU say that the chicken only has to be chlorine washed as it covers up poor hygiene standards in US chicken rearing and processing, whereas EU production standards are much higher. I suspect, as with all these things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Alternatively a lot of people could avoid the issue entirely and buy Quorn, etc fake chicken. If its eaten in, say, a curry you simply won't notice the difference. On those rare occasions you might actually want a nice chicken sandwich you can buy a good, expensive, well-reared one. Presumably went to the right school, good manners etc?
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Post by Tim on Aug 12, 2019 15:38:25 GMT
Indubitably, Old Boy!
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 12, 2019 20:34:21 GMT
Either that, or it's been spending a lot of time with Colin...
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 12, 2019 21:09:53 GMT
Has anyone ever seen a headless quorn running round a farmyard ??
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 7:28:46 GMT
I'll probably regret adding my two penneth, but the talk of empire baffles me. I was talking to Mrs 12th about the notion (her being a historian by qualification and all that), and she reckons that if there is any sort of empire parallel to the EU (which neither of us believes for a second) it would be the Roman. After all, much of the direction the EU leads is in the direction of trying to improve the lot of the people (whether you agree with it or not). That the Romans improved the lot of those they conquered in many ways is so well-known that the line 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' is familiar to just about everyone with a sense of humour.
She also pointed out that whilst there's no queue there at the moment, many of the later joiners to the EU actively lobbied for inclusion. Hardly warrants comparison with an aggressive military expansion.
Finally, the difference between anything political and the Nazi ideology and its many manifestations is deeply inappropriate and insulting to those who had to endure it - on all sides. Watch Shoah, read If This is a Woman, The Choice, Alone in Berlin etc, and if you still feel the comparison between the EU and Nazism is in any way appropriate, it's time to put down the Daily Mail and realise you have surrendered mental agency to ranting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 9:36:03 GMT
I am not a daily mail reader. I get that you do not agree but I have a right to my opinion too. The decline into personal insults suggests the argument you have is weak. Not ranting btw, unless having a personal view that does not conform to yours is ranting.
I am not at all put out or throwing mud at individuals, nor am I ranting in any way shape or form. Have a nice day folks and take everything a little less seriously please.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 13, 2019 10:02:35 GMT
Has anyone ever seen a headless quorn running round a farmyard ?? I've seen the chemical facility where they ferment the micoprotein fungus that it's made of. Never touched it since.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 10:31:56 GMT
Has anyone ever seen a headless quorn running round a farmyard ?? Not even a headless chook. A few headless mushrooms about here though.
'Here' as in where I am, the hedges around the estate. Just to clarify.
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Post by PG on Aug 13, 2019 11:48:24 GMT
Alternatively a lot of people could avoid the issue entirely and buy Quorn, etc fake chicken. If its eaten in, say, a curry you simply won't notice the difference. On those rare occasions you might actually want a nice chicken sandwich you can buy a good, expensive, well-reared one.Indeed, the whole chicken debate is only there as people demand cheap food. US does it by chlorine washing them. EU by different hygiene standards (e.g disinfection of all housing between batches of chickens, abattoirs wash down etc. Same result - too many birds in too confined a space = recipe for disease. A nice free range chicken does not need chlorine washing or anything else.
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Post by Tim on Aug 13, 2019 12:11:24 GMT
A nice free range chicken does not need chlorine washing or anything else. And it tastes so much better on a sandwich....
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 13, 2019 13:09:36 GMT
I am not a daily mail reader. I get that you do not agree but I have a right to my opinion too. The decline into personal insults suggests the argument you have is weak. Not ranting btw, unless having a personal view that does not conform to yours is ranting. I am not at all put out or throwing mud at individuals, nor am I ranting in any way shape or form. Have a nice day folks and take everything a little less seriously please. It's a touch hypocritical to suggest others take things a little less seriously whilst insisting that the EU is mutating into the Fourth Reich. That's nothing if not making an entire mountain range out of a mole hill.
In fact arguably we are all in this frightful mess because certain people have never been able to see the wood for the trees when it comes to Britain's membership of the EU.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 13, 2019 13:14:47 GMT
Talking of hypocrisy it did suddenly strike me as ironic that a number of leading Brexiteers seem to be so fond of the US and the US way of doing things.
After all, the US is a federal system of governance where 50 fairly disparate states get governed centrally by an executive President that in many cases they didn't and wouldn't vote for, and who doesn't share many, if any, of their core values.
Which always seems to me to be the nub of the objection to a united Europe...
Then again, the Brexit campaign has never been noted for the intellectual coherence of its arguments.
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