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Post by johnc on Jul 11, 2019 14:10:44 GMT
Very sober reading! I have spoken to 4 people this morning who are doing things they would rather not do because of Politicans: 1. Senior NHS Consultant taking retirement because of the pension tax charges. 2. Another NHS Consultant who is now working 9 to 5 as much as possible and refusing extra shifts because of the pension tax charges. 3. A client and his wife who have decided to sell up in the UK and move to Spain where they have a house because they are so tired of Brexit and think it is a massive retrograde step. 4. A client who is moving to Yorkshire because of the higher taxes in Scotland and the fact he feels the divide will only get bigger and that Brexit is likely to trigger the break-up of the UK. I don't see any of the above doing my business or the UK as a whole much that could be considered to be positive.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 11, 2019 14:11:36 GMT
Have we not been a vassal to the US since 1941 when we begged them to join us against the Axis powers? Or when they cut us off at the knees during the Suez Crisis? Or an any number of occasions in the past 50 years? The leaks are unfortunate (and we need to find and punish the leaker) but they happen from time to time and it all kicks off and then we move on, tomorrow's chip wrappers etc. Even if we weren't going through this whole Brexit mess it would still be the same and it's not as if the EU countries would stand behind us against Trump - they all snivel to the US and will do what's best for them. We're in a new world now - old alliances are failing and we have to accept the fact that, going forward, we look after No.1
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 14:21:30 GMT
Agreed, just simple logic.
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Post by Alex on Jul 11, 2019 16:41:05 GMT
Well it’s what the rest of the world is doing, whether it be Russia, China, the EU or the USA. It’s not just a Trumpian US that is looking inwards and making decisions solely on the basis of what is in it for them, the rest of the world is too. Our politicians failure to secure a deal that offers us the opportunity to own and consume our own cake as BoJo promised is not just the fault of inept Brexit secretaries but an EU that is doing it’s utmost to look after the interests of its members. They’re not stubborn or intransigent they are just looking out for no1 which is what anyone voting for Brexit was doing (unless any leavers would like to state they voted out for the benefit of the EU). I really don’t see why we can complain about the way the EU have behaved and I’m not quite sure why some people (such as a certain Mr Farage) think The Donald has our back!
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Post by PG on Jul 11, 2019 22:21:34 GMT
Unless your name is Jeremy Corbyn (or one of his acolytes) I can't see how anybody could fuck things up more than Theresa May. In which case, whatever Boris does it cannot be even worse. The fact that the BBC, Guardian, media luvvies and a lot of the "establishment" (like John Major) hate him, just makes him more appealing. Johnson - born in Manhattan's smart Upper East Side, brought up in expat comfort, educated at private prep school, Eton and Oxford, member of the Bullingdon Club, Secretary and President of the Oxford Union, married an aristocrat, trainee journalist at The Times through family connections, columnist for the Telegraph, Editor of the Spectator, MP for Henley at 37, Mayor of London, then MP again. Hoping to become PM at 55.
Major - born in Surrey, brought up in Brixton, educated at comprehensive and grammar school, left school at 16, never went to university, worked in the real economy, eventually becoming a banker before switching to politics and becoming an MP at 36 and PM at 54.
So, really, who is the actual Establishment figure here?
Well as a privately and Oxford educated white middle class land and property owner I'm clearly in "the Establishment" as well then. Only I've not been offered any well paid jobs at public bodies or committee sinecures (that I can fuck up and walk into another one with ease); I'm not invited in to talk to the BBC every other week about something I am not involved in any more (John Major ceased to be an MP 17 years ago); I have not so far been offered any sort of knighthood for simply doing my well-paid job; I don't have a feeling of superiority to thick voters; I don't support the status quo no matter what; people don't close ranks to support me no matter what I do or say. The Establishment - as I use the word - hate Boris as they are frightened of him more than anything else. When sections of the press, the great and the good, journalists etc relentlessly play the man and not the ball, it is because they know his policies are probably popular. And any marketing expert will tell you that negative campaigning never works. It didn't work for the Remain campaign - "you must stay in as things will be shit if you vote to leave" is hardly a great positive selling message is it?. It has not worked against Trump - it just gives him evidence that his views on the press are correct. It did not get Theresa May a majority against Corbyn. And it hasn't worked so far against Boris. And that is why the ambassador had to go. Not because of the leaks. Not because Boris would not support him. But because he was playing the man and not the ball. Instead of writing about US policy and how the UK could influence that or benefit from it, or how best to work with the US administration, whoever might comprise it, he seemed to be saying little more than "I think Trump is a fucking idiot and I hope he gets thrown out of office". Not very intelligent or constructive. And the fact that the great and the good have all rushed out to support Sir Kim Darroch merely makes my point for me. Self awareness is not their strong point. Boris may well be the UK's Trump, but that is where we are after the last three years of utter ineptitude and dithering.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 11, 2019 23:50:44 GMT
Boris doesn’t have any bloody policies.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 12, 2019 7:19:01 GMT
Johnson - born in Manhattan's smart Upper East Side, brought up in expat comfort, educated at private prep school, Eton and Oxford, member of the Bullingdon Club, Secretary and President of the Oxford Union, married an aristocrat, trainee journalist at The Times through family connections, columnist for the Telegraph, Editor of the Spectator, MP for Henley at 37, Mayor of London, then MP again. Hoping to become PM at 55.
Major - born in Surrey, brought up in Brixton, educated at comprehensive and grammar school, left school at 16, never went to university, worked in the real economy, eventually becoming a banker before switching to politics and becoming an MP at 36 and PM at 54.
So, really, who is the actual Establishment figure here?
And that is why the ambassador had to go. Not because of the leaks. Not because Boris would not support him. But because he was playing the man and not the ball. Instead of writing about US policy and how the UK could influence that or benefit from it, or how best to work with the US administration, whoever might comprise it, he seemed to be saying little more than "I think Trump is a fucking idiot and I hope he gets thrown out of office". Not very intelligent or constructive. And the fact that the great and the good have all rushed out to support Sir Kim Darroch merely makes my point for me. Self awareness is not their strong point. Actually, if you read the entire email transcript that's exactly what he did. He laid out a 5 point plan on how to work with Trump and his administration, and it was bang on the money, a lesson for any country having to deal with this White House. He talked about having to keep the message simple and blunt with Trump. About how we should flood the people closest to Trump with our points of view so that when he asks for advise he gets the message we want to convey. He talks about how Trump was "dazzled" by his trip to the UK and how we should exploit his fondness for these events. Sir Kim Darroch is an excellent modern diplomat - a far cry from the old stuffy establishment figures that used to get these jobs and it's a shame he's gone.
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 12, 2019 7:48:27 GMT
Sir Kim Darroch is an excellent modern diplomat - a far cry from the old stuffy establishment figures that used to get these jobs and it's a shame he's gone. Problem seems to be that this country is run by the "stuffy establishment" who are totally out of touch with reality and unable to grasp modern technology/thinking, and in any event painfully slow to react to anything other than a teabreak
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 12, 2019 8:32:25 GMT
Sir Kim Darroch is an excellent modern diplomat - a far cry from the old stuffy establishment figures that used to get these jobs and it's a shame he's gone. Problem seems to be that this country is run by the "stuffy establishment" who are totally out of touch with reality and unable to grasp modern technology/thinking, and in any event painfully slow to react to anything other than a teabreak Is it really though? Outside of a myth peddled by Farage and Johnson?
I have had cause over the years to work for and with civil servants working in a number of government ministries, department and agencies, and I have always found the government employees (at the Whitehall level) impressively bright and switched on.
After all, the civil service exams are famously tough. And not for nothing is our civil service, including the diplomatic service, admired worldwide for its professionalism.
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Post by Tim on Jul 12, 2019 8:39:24 GMT
Well as a privately and Oxford educated white middle class land and property owner I'm clearly in "the Establishment" as well then. Only I've not been offered any well paid jobs at public bodies or committee sinecures (that I can fuck up and walk into another one with ease); I'm not invited in to talk to the BBC every other week about something I am not involved in any more (John Major ceased to be an MP 17 years ago); I have not so far been offered any sort of knighthood for simply doing my well-paid job; I don't have a feeling of superiority to thick voters; I don't support the status quo no matter what; people don't close ranks to support me no matter what I do or say. The Establishment - as I use the word - hate Boris as they are frightened of him more than anything else. When sections of the press, the great and the good, journalists etc relentlessly play the man and not the ball, it is because they know his policies are probably popular. And any marketing expert will tell you that negative campaigning never works. It didn't work for the Remain campaign - "you must stay in as things will be shit if you vote to leave" is hardly a great positive selling message is it?. It has not worked against Trump - it just gives him evidence that his views on the press are correct. It did not get Theresa May a majority against Corbyn. And it hasn't worked so far against Boris. And that is why the ambassador had to go. Not because of the leaks. Not because Boris would not support him. But because he was playing the man and not the ball. Instead of writing about US policy and how the UK could influence that or benefit from it, or how best to work with the US administration, whoever might comprise it, he seemed to be saying little more than "I think Trump is a fucking idiot and I hope he gets thrown out of office". Not very intelligent or constructive. And the fact that the great and the good have all rushed out to support Sir Kim Darroch merely makes my point for me. Self awareness is not their strong point. Boris may well be the UK's Trump, but that is where we are after the last three years of utter ineptitude and dithering. There are a couple of points here:- 1. You quite possibly ARE part of 'The Establishment' to those that haven't been to private school and Oxbridge. The only reason none of the things you refer to have happened to you is that, with the best will in the world, you chose a career that nobody is interested in. After all beancounters are all boring bastards aren't they? That's why, for example, we all drive grey, mid-spec, nondescript junior executive cars. (Oh, hang on.....) 2. Your point about the ambassador is surely 100% incorrect. Do you assume that the US ambassador in London is sending reports back to Washington about what a top-notch Theresa May is doing with Brexit, keeping her party together and uniting the country? OF course he isn't, it's just that, so far, nobody has leaked what he's sending back. There was a Wikileaks dump a few years ago that released a lot of US overseas reports and it upset the countries that were targeted but they were governed by mature, forward looking people and establishments who wanted to maintain good relations with the US and didn't rock the boat too much because they knew everybody would get over it pretty quickly. Clearly that hasn't happened with this one because they are led by a thin skinned bully who's used to throwing his weight around and getting his own way. He's shown that for the last 2 1/2 years and we've been too weak to tell him to get stuffed. It doesn't bode
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 12, 2019 9:39:56 GMT
Problem seems to be that this country is run by the "stuffy establishment" who are totally out of touch with reality and unable to grasp modern technology/thinking, and in any event painfully slow to react to anything other than a teabreak Is it really though? Outside of a myth peddled by Farage and Johnson?
I have had cause over the years to work for and with civil servants working in a number of government ministries, department and agencies, and I have always found the government employees (at the Whitehall level) impressively bright and switched on.
After all, the civil service exams are famously tough. And not for nothing is our civil service, including the diplomatic service, admired worldwide for its professionalism.
There's certainly been a long running problem of a group of people who seamlessly flow through life from prep school to private school to university to the the Civil Service almost untouched by the Country around them, with little wider life experience or empathy for their fellow citizens. They may well be well educated and pass tough entrance exams but they are exams designed to maintain the status quo and not necessarily meet the needs of 21st century Britain - probably because their upbringing has given them little idea about what those needs actually are. I'm sure you've met some bright people - my experience coming from industry is that the civil service people we encounter are well educated but seem to lack, for want of a better word,"savvy" and an inability to understand how one course of action impacts on a number of other factors down the line.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2019 9:42:36 GMT
"Boris doesn’t have any bloody policies".
Yes, he does. 'I'm great. vote for me 'cos everyone else is stupid, put me in power". Essentially he is his own and sole policy.
Diplomacy should mean what it say's but it seems the diplomats do not know that. It has been known for a very long time that there are people who are not paid very well, with access to the most sensitive and damaging data, who are being courted by journalists and foreign governments waving cash under their noses. It IS going to happen and yet these so called 'smart' people cannot switch of their vocal chords or avoid embarrassing physical exploits. They are PAID to avoid this sort of thing and when they get caught out it is THEIR fault.
I think they need to wake up and smell the beverage myself.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 12, 2019 10:31:40 GMT
Boris doesn’t have any bloody policies. I only heard tax cut and that was good enough for me.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 12, 2019 12:36:57 GMT
Is it really though? Outside of a myth peddled by Farage and Johnson?
I have had cause over the years to work for and with civil servants working in a number of government ministries, department and agencies, and I have always found the government employees (at the Whitehall level) impressively bright and switched on.
After all, the civil service exams are famously tough. And not for nothing is our civil service, including the diplomatic service, admired worldwide for its professionalism.
There's certainly been a long running problem of a group of people who seamlessly flow through life from prep school to private school to university to the the Civil Service almost untouched by the Country around them, with little wider life experience or empathy for their fellow citizens. They may well be well educated and pass tough entrance exams but they are exams designed to maintain the status quo and not necessarily meet the needs of 21st century Britain - probably because their upbringing has given them little idea about what those needs actually are. I'm sure you've met some bright people - my experience coming from industry is that the civil service people we encounter are well educated but seem to lack, for want of a better word,"savvy" and an inability to understand how one course of action impacts on a number of other factors down the line. Perhaps in the past. I'm fairly sure most of the civil servants I met were not privately educated and they mostly seemed very normal people with normal everyday lives. Only 7% of the UK population is privately educated and they don't all clamour to join the civil service.
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Post by Tim on Jul 23, 2019 11:09:02 GMT
Oh well, that was inevitable.
His team have done a fairly good job of keeping him quiet over the last couple of months so he hasn't been given a decent chance to shoot himself in the foot!
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Post by johnc on Jul 23, 2019 11:13:01 GMT
So higher rate tax is now going to start at £80K in England. That's about the only thing he will be able to get through 'cos I can't see the EU giving him any ground.
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Post by Martin on Jul 23, 2019 11:43:35 GMT
So higher rate tax is now going to start at £80K in England. That's about the only thing he will be able to get through 'cos I can't see the EU giving him any ground. When might that happen?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 23, 2019 11:56:51 GMT
So higher rate tax is now going to start at £80K in England. That's about the only thing he will be able to get through 'cos I can't see the EU giving him any ground. When might that happen? The 5th of Never.
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Post by Martin on Jul 23, 2019 12:06:27 GMT
Come on, he’s promised....
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Post by Alex on Jul 23, 2019 12:16:04 GMT
Andrea Ledsom was on the radio shortly afterwards still talking about how Boris will go back to the renegotiating table despite the EU having no one currently for us to negotiate with and stating that the negotiations are over. The lunatics definitely seem to have taken over the asylum that is no.10 right now. Oh well, I’m sure it’ll be an interesting ride.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 23, 2019 12:25:33 GMT
Andrea Ledsom was on the radio shortly afterwards still talking about how Boris will go back to the renegotiating table despite the EU having no one currently for us to negotiate with and stating that the negotiations are over. The lunatics definitely seem to have taken over the asylum that is no.10 right now. Oh well, I’m sure it’ll be an interesting ride. One thing I've learned about negotiations is that when someone says the negotiations are over, they are never over.
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Post by johnc on Jul 23, 2019 12:26:28 GMT
I currently feel the way I did as a lad when the only lift on offer was the idiot who drove flat out everywhere and was devoid of almost all skill. I was just glad to get out at the other end alive. I used to try to engage these guys in as much conversation as possible so that their small brains couldn't think about going fast at the same time: girls were always a good subject!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 12:31:40 GMT
The eu have released a statement that they are ready to talk.
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Post by PG on Jul 23, 2019 14:10:10 GMT
Andrea Ledsom was on the radio shortly afterwards still talking about how Boris will go back to the renegotiating table despite the EU having no one currently for us to negotiate with and stating that the negotiations are over. The lunatics definitely seem to have taken over the asylum that is no.10 right now. Oh well, I’m sure it’ll be an interesting ride. One thing I've learned about negotiations is that when someone says the negotiations are over, they are never over. Exactly. All EU negotiations on any subject end at 4am after an all-nighter that is usually the day after the final ever deadline that was impossible to move.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 23, 2019 15:48:10 GMT
One thing I've learned about negotiations is that when someone says the negotiations are over, they are never over. Exactly. All EU negotiations on any subject end at 4am after an all-nighter that is usually the day after the final ever deadline that was impossible to move. Negotiations are only over once we've left.
Everything happens last minute, especially in Europe.
I don't understand why some think the negotiations are done. We're no where near the deadline. I'll be very surprised if we don't get some concessions.
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Post by Tim on Jul 23, 2019 15:52:58 GMT
All very well but it begs the question why the EU didn't offer some of these looming concessions to Theresa May.
Are they taking the piss by leaving us with Boris as PM - they'll give some concessions but we'll have a clown in charge?
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Post by johnc on Jul 23, 2019 15:56:49 GMT
From a negotiating point of view I think the 31st October deadline and Boris' attitude to it means the EU will have their minds more concentrated on reaching a better deal but whether they decide to concede anything material is a different matter all together.
The BBC carried a piece on Breakfast this morning about the massive increases in tariffs for UK goods like cheese going to Canada. Apparently Canada aren't going to cut us any slack until a full trade deal is negotiated, so that could be years and it may also be the same story in lots of other places.
The only glimmer of light for a smoother passage as I see it, is that Europe appears to be slipping into recession and they may be prepared to compromise to help keep as much of the UK trade as possible.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 23, 2019 16:00:33 GMT
All very well but it begs the question why the EU didn't offer some of these looming concessions to Theresa May. Are they taking the piss by leaving us with Boris as PM - they'll give some concessions but we'll have a clown in charge? Ha ha, probably, they appear a bit shaper then us currently.
I'm not suggesting that Boris will be our great saviour but from what I have seen, I do believe he means it when he suggested the EU can get stuffed and that'll put the wind up anyone. We all know what its like when you try and negotiate with an institution that has a don't give a stuff attitude.
There has to be a threat of no deal even if no one wants that outcome.
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Post by johnc on Jul 23, 2019 16:04:06 GMT
The biggest problem with Boris' plan is that Parliament may not vote to accept whatever deal he gets and they have already voted to reject a no deal Brexit - we might still be in limbo for some time to come.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 17:58:45 GMT
The eu need us and a deal with us just as much or more. The fact that they have been so hard nosed is mere negotiation method 101. The fact that large numbers of our own scrotes want to remove the biggest bargaining chip we have is, imvho, treason.
Far too many morons got in the way of proper negotiation, wanting things set in stone prior to negotiation and do as the eu want so they can then say the deal is worse than remaining. What a pathetic bunch of mealy mouthed little (....). We need a whole new bunch of people in the big house. People willing to do the job rather than promoting themselves and their business friends and hangers on. We will NOT get them yet.
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