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Post by racingteatray on May 21, 2019 21:44:58 GMT
What you mean is, "They are not listening to me and I am smarter than they are". Leave won the referendum and telling people the equivalent of you are smart and they are stupid for not realising that", is never going to be popular. What would you be saying if remain had won and others had problems accepting that? No, I know you did not actually say that but as good as. Any other close run elections/referendums we should revisit because the results were no in favour of x, y or z? No that is not what I am saying. When have I said I am smarter? But I do think my concerns are legitimate and in good faith, and shouldn’t merely be blithely brushed off as an elitist attempt to thwart the popular will. And equally please do not think I don’t want Brexit to succeed. I’ll be vastly relieved if it turns out not to be a terrible mistake. But that doesn’t stop me fearing that, in my personal judgement, there is a significant chance that it is a mistake. I know a number of people like you and Scouse are the view that you don’t care about the economics and that you’d happily sacrifice some prosperity in order to leave the EU, but how far does that go? How bad would it need to get before you’d re-think that position? That’s a genuine question asked out of interest and in good faith.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 0:43:02 GMT
"No, I know you did not actually say that but as good as".
There will always be the problems of written communication, back when I was running a render forum I came across it almost every day. This topic is one that will run and run btw, even after we are gone. You mentioned that you felt it your duty to point out pitfalls etc which really comes across as 'Change your minds you are all wrong'. An issue I dealt with frequently was the level of ability in render programs fe, "If it say's render in the program description it means photo real". Well actually it does not. People also failed to realise that a render program costing $190 was not likely to be better than one costing $4000 or even close to being as good and has compromises due to cost limiting. I was a self trained hobby user that got to be a beta tester and then represent a company in discussions with industry partners, without formal training but I can recognise a market opportunity when I see one even though my experiences are limited to the health and render sectors but the patterns can be seen. I am not a genius and I recognise that, IQ of 199 or not. I accept that I do not know everything about anything. I know there was never a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow but am heartily sick of the eu waste which the UK government has pointed out but had no success with stopping and that is before the eu growing out of control, becoming a federal united states of eu. I know from contacts within the military that the eu expansion is being used by Putin to control his people and has a direct link to the Ukraine war. The eu is falling apart from the inside, take the German dwarf, she had huge ambition but the backlash to massive immigration problems (Note the Christmas market attacks of not long ago) mean she lost those. France is in turmoil with the government trying to bring in massive reforms in employment law which you will know a lot about I am sure. That is just the two other biggest members. Spain still have problems with their major industrial region wanting independence AND to leave the eu. Italy have the same disproportion of wealth and jobs as the UK and they also have issues with many wanting to leave the eu. I maintain that if the ue had demonstrated an interest and move to restrict out of control growth and waste, I would have voted remain. I know, it can seem arse about face but my logic is sound in the recesses of my mind at least. Perhaps the growth of the eu is driven by the perceived ability to grow anything perpetually from a business to a trading group to a federal state of eu. It is a false premise, it will never happen. Capitalism will always lead to boom and bust and the eu is trying to grow to the capitalist maximum. It will bust and when it does the crash will be monumental. I know it is easy to say but I predicted the crash, what was the final indicator for m,e? Well when the next door neighbour was informed by his bank that a 70 year mortgage was not only workable but desirable. For them, yes. The eu is that capitalist wet dream in a warm and fuzzy blanket with rose coloured glasses while sipping an endless glass of something warming and hic inducing. The basis for this is flawed. I hope that everyone gets the best deal they can, I am not a rich person money wise but frankly do not need to be. I take Bess for a run now and then, make 3d models for render, feed the Badgers and I am mostly content. A little while ago Iwas outside with the beasts's and the little cubs have no fear of me, they come climbing on me to get to the porridge and peanut/dry fruit mix I have - it is magic. Small things perhaps. Simon, you are, in my opinion a very decent human being and I apologise for not always being able to get my meaning across properly or giving insult which I do not intend to do (Word finding etc). It is a privelege to share the pages on this forum with yourself and the others, like families we sometimes do not see eye to eye but blimey mate, it works and I would be lost without it. I can say for a fact that after several days of increasing knee hip and arse pain (Yes, it is a pain in the arse) DHC when taken with some food (NO, not bacon bits cooked with turnip in a Mexican sauce) leaves a very mellow feeling and I might even get some kip tonight. Or not but when it feels like this who bloody cares, really? To everyone here, I apologise for coming across as an uncompromising git with the flexibility of tonight's home made flat bread which I think Terry Pratchett would have described as Dwarf bread or body armour. Good luck to the pigeon that tries eating it too. As a final point on Brexit, a quote from an Asian businessman on the beeb news channel @ 01:40. "The worst decision is indecision, make up your minds"
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 22, 2019 7:28:01 GMT
I understand what you're saying, Mike and the EU has over reached itself and gone far beyond what people thought they were signing up to in the 70s. However, my stance has always been that the UK should have stayed in the EU - it's easier to change something and build alliances from within an organisation, than leave that organisation and try to make the changes from without. If we'd had politicians with balls (like Thatcher) we would be in the EU but imposing our own red lines and telling them to like it or lump it.
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2019 8:42:17 GMT
Or we would be taking the French approach and adopting the rules that suit us and ignoring the ones we don't like.
Sadly we're British and that doesn't appear to be in our psyche.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2019 9:04:22 GMT
I understand what you're saying, Mike and the EU has over reached itself and gone far beyond what people thought they were signing up to in the 70s. However, my stance has always been that the UK should have stayed in the EU - it's easier to change something and build alliances from within an organisation, than leave that organisation and try to make the changes from without. If we'd had politicians with balls (like Thatcher) we would be in the EU but imposing our own red lines and telling them to like it or lump it. Amen to that.
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Post by scouse on May 22, 2019 9:22:27 GMT
The mess we are in is down to one person: Theresa May. We voted to leave. We wanted a free trade agreement like Canada, but with obvious extras as we are starting at exactly the same point. Not only was this achievable, the EU wanted the same thing. DeXEU believed they were going to negotiate such a thing, not aware that Thereason May had a parallel negotiation going on behind their back for her Withdrawal Agreement. Which is a fucking disaster of a document.
I voted leave, I still believe the UK needs to leave long term. The EU is not only beyond reform, it has no desire to reform. The EU's only response to any problem or crisis is 'more EU'. Any 'reform' it does is only to increase more power & sovereignty to the EU and less to the nation states.
Having said that, I would sooner revoke article 50 and remain a member than accept Thereason's WA which, even by the EU's reckoning, would leave us a colony with no say in the EU's rules and trade agreements and no say or chance to make our own rules and trade agreements.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 22, 2019 9:45:49 GMT
Theresa May wants to remain in the EU. She made that clear all through the run up to the referendum.
I firmly believe her plan is to concoct such a bad deal that no-one will be prepared to support it. Eventually, after repeatedly bad deals are voted down we will remain in the EU by default. Basically we will become the whipped dog in the corner, cowed and broken within the EU.
It wasn't my first choice but once the referendum result was in we needed to (wo)man up and explain to the EU that a win-win deal was our preferred option but that we would not take no deal off the table.
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Post by michael on May 22, 2019 9:52:26 GMT
Theresa May wants to remain in the EU. She made that clear all through the run up to the referendum. I firmly believe her plan is to concoct such a bad deal that no-one will be prepared to support it. Eventually, after repeatedly bad deals are voted down we will remain in the EU by default. Basically we will become the whipped dog in the corner, cowed and broken within the EU. It wasn't my first choice but once the referendum result was in we needed to (wo)man up and explain to the EU that a win-win deal was our preferred option but that we would not take no deal off the table. I think there's something in this. My own view is she wanted to threaten the EU with no deal in order that they come to the table with a sensible compromise that either legitimised a second referendum or created a workable deal. Unfortunately she was undermined with the general election and it's been a case of palliative care since then.
As there is no strategy to achieve remain or a good deal I think we're in the hands of Farage and co.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2019 10:11:38 GMT
The mess we are in is down to one person: Theresa May. We voted to leave. We wanted a free trade agreement like Canada, but with obvious extras as we are starting at exactly the same point. Not only was this achievable, the EU wanted the same thing. DeXEU believed they were going to negotiate such a thing, not aware that Thereason May had a parallel negotiation going on behind their back for her Withdrawal Agreement. Which is a fucking disaster of a document. I voted leave, I still believe the UK needs to leave long term. The EU is not only beyond reform, it has no desire to reform. The EU's only response to any problem or crisis is 'more EU'. Any 'reform' it does is only to increase more power & sovereignty to the EU and less to the nation states. Having said that, I would sooner revoke article 50 and remain a member than accept Thereason's WA which, even by the EU's reckoning, would leave us a colony with no say in the EU's rules and trade agreements and no say or chance to make our own rules and trade agreements. I agree that Mrs May has made a complete Horlicks of it but I am just not clear who (of the available candidates at the time) would have done a better job under the circumstances.
The original sin was triggering Art. 50 in the first place and that was another of Cameron's clusterf*cks. He was the one who promised that if Britain voted to leave, then we'd trigger Art.50 immediately, and unfortunately Mrs May either lacked the imagination to see that this was an insane thing to do or was too scared of the tabloid media to do otherwise.
That said, we need to remember that at the time the Daily Mail and others were running a highly aggressive campaign to force the triggering of Art.50, so the mistake was not all Mrs May's. But another leader, with more balls and a stronger mandate, might have held their ground.
That would have given us an immeasurably stronger negotiating position.
And I agree with you completely on the WA, which would do exactly as you say. And to my mind, revoking Art.50 isn't done for the purpose of killing Brexit. It would be done for the purposes of re-setting the clock and re-levelling the playing ground for future discussions (because this genie can't go back in the bottle and it would be unwise to try). Now that's tricky because Art.50 can only be revoked "in good faith" according to the ECJ ruling, but surely we have sufficient diplomatic smarts left in government to get around that. But I am not confident that people like Andrea Leadsom and Mark Francois have the political skills to understand such a ruse, nor would they be prepared to trust the process and the outcome. Hence I am not confident it would happen, good idea or not.
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Post by scouse on May 22, 2019 10:12:45 GMT
Theresa May wants to remain in the EU. She made that clear all through the run up to the referendum. I firmly believe her plan is to concoct such a bad deal that no-one will be prepared to support it. Eventually, after repeatedly bad deals are voted down we will remain in the EU by default. Basically we will become the whipped dog in the corner, cowed and broken within the EU. It wasn't my first choice but once the referendum result was in we needed to (wo)man up and explain to the EU that a win-win deal was our preferred option but that we would not take no deal off the table. I think there's something in this. My own view is she wanted to threaten the EU with no deal in order that they come to the table with a sensible compromise that either legitimised a second referendum or created a workable deal. Unfortunately she was undermined with the general election and it's been a case of palliative care since then.
As there is no strategy to achieve remain or a good deal I think we're in the hands of Farage and co.
I think Bob's take is the more likely. The deal was supposedly there to be had. That was what the DeXEU ministers thought they were negotiating for. Thereason's deal or it's failure resulting in us remaining in the EU will unfortunately poison the conservative grass roots support and give us a Corbyn government. Unless Farage's landslide tomorrow brings some sense to the Tory party. But it won't. Too many in CCHQ also see the EU elections as nothing but a place for a protest vote that can be ignored.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 11:37:25 GMT
The problem with revoking article 50 is easily seen and either way this goes the major partlies have shot themselves in the foot, including the limp damp wets. There is no chance of achieving this mythical deal that has been suggested by parliament and all we are achieving now is to give a soap box to farrage and the other eejits. Revoking article 50 would give cheer to remainers and further alienate leavers, to the extent we would see physical harm being done is not certain but I see it as highly likely given how highly charged the topic is.
Just what will our political landscape look like when the dust settles? Who will pick up the pieces? Corbyn and Farrage are just as damaging and I do not even want to think what would happen in that event. One thing I have always been certain of is that we need to sort our political bleeders out before we get anywhere with the eu and if that means delay or revokin article 50 then so be it. We just need to be much smarter about the whole bloody thing and stop reporting fear mongering, rather we should concentrate on the real issues and opportunities. I know, a pipe dream.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2019 11:53:15 GMT
Anyone who threatens someone on the other side of an argument, even one as emotive as Brexit, with physical harm or death has at least several screws loose.
As it happens, I came absolutely face to face with our potential future PM again last night as I walked around a corner near Tate Britain. He was, true to form, on his bike but had stopped to take a call. As per the last time it happened, I gave him a distinctly dirty look but resisted the urge to be say anything, let alone insult him. Just wouldn't have been the civilised thing to do.
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2019 12:30:50 GMT
You could've pushed him off his bike into the path of a bus.....
Assuming he does replace May what exactly is he going to do anyway? Do you think he can actually stand up to the nuttier elements of the ERG who want us out, pronto, with no deal?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 12:47:28 GMT
Boris has lost credibility for me, not even worthy of being a deputy. He often hides a reasonable mind behind a crap mullet and verbiage, a bit like a certain septic. Either way he has shown himself to be far too self absorbed and calculating to be a proper bleader.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2019 13:07:20 GMT
What is a "bleader"?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 17:39:08 GMT
A wood b leader with pretentious overtones.
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Post by Stuntman on May 22, 2019 19:49:48 GMT
The whole thing is just so exasperating and depressing.
I voted Remain and I'd prefer that we stayed within the EU, despite its flaws, and press for more reforms from within the tent. But like some of you on either side of the fence, I would just like some certainty and relative stability so that we can cut our cloth according to the cards we are ultimately dealt. But I would rather that these cards were, say, Jacks and Queens, rather than Threes and Fours.
It's an absolute joke how poorly the whole thing has been handled and managed. I'm sure that a bunch of proper businesspeople would have sorted it out pretty well, in about six months absolute tops.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2019 22:59:13 GMT
Cue Alan Sugar...
...oi...you...Barni-fucking-er.
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Post by Alex on May 23, 2019 17:21:08 GMT
Boris has lost credibility for me, not even worthy of being a deputy. He often hides a reasonable mind behind a crap mullet and verbiage, a bit like a certain septic. Either way he has shown himself to be far too self absorbed and calculating to be a proper bleader. What made you view Boris with any credibility in the first place? He’s spent his entire career either lying (to his employers, the public and his wife) or bumbling from one faux pas to another. If you look up the word ‘buffoon’ in the dictionary you’ll just find a picture of him. I don’t doubt he is an intelligent man and has got where he is by using his wit and skillfil dishonesty but I really do hope that enough people have now seen through it to ensure he doesn’t get anywhere near having his hands on the keys to No.10 but, alas, I do suspect he will.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 17:38:57 GMT
My concern too although a certain number of London residents thought he did a good enough job of mayor. Perhaps employ him as a tick counter at a vets.
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Post by Stuntman on May 23, 2019 19:18:57 GMT
Boris is currently the 6/4 Favourite with Ladbrokes to be the next Tory leader, with Raab at 4/1 and then 10/1 bar.
Of more interest is the 8/13 they are currently offering for the Conservatives to have gained less than 10% share of the UK vote in the European elections. Bloody hell that's a kicking.
The Brexit Party are being offered at 1/2 to have a share of the UK vote between 30% and 40%.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2019 8:03:18 GMT
I wondered a couple of days ago why Andrea Leadsom resigning was seen as such a big event but apparently she's a contender as well.
How can that be, are politics really suffering such a dearth of talent?
If the Tories get Boris then I can only hope the whole lot of them, including the 'grass roots' get what they deserve at the next general election. And I can only hope the rest of us don't get what we DON'T deserve at that point which is a Corbyn led Labour Party.
We desperately need a 3rd choice that's actually viable if we're otherwise faced with these 2.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2019 8:19:08 GMT
Let's face it, Boris is a shoe in for leader and PM. I'm surprised the bookies are even taking bets.
I've been reading Boris' book on Churchill where he outlines one political blunder after another before, finally, Winston has his finest hour in the twilight of his years. One can only hope Boris has the same political trajectory.
To be fair, my sister had to work with him when he was Mayor of London and she said, despite all her previous misgivings, he was good to work with and actually got stuff done.
My jury is still out on him.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2019 8:29:54 GMT
I've been reading Boris' book on Churchill where he outlines one political blunder after another before, finally, Winston has his finest hour in the twilight of his years. One can only hope Boris has the same political trajectory. Are you hoping this is the twilight of Boris' years?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2019 8:51:30 GMT
I've been reading Boris' book on Churchill where he outlines one political blunder after another before, finally, Winston has his finest hour in the twilight of his years. One can only hope Boris has the same political trajectory. Are you hoping this is the twilight of Boris' years? As in save the country and then get voted out? You never know.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2019 8:55:18 GMT
Are you hoping this is the twilight of Boris' years? As in save the country and then get voted out? You never know. Hmmm, not what I was thinking. Perhaps his new, much younger mistress will shag him to death.
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Post by racingteatray on May 24, 2019 10:27:09 GMT
I dislike Boris intensely for his flagrant pursuit of his own self-interest and ambition.
And in normal circumstances, I wouldn't let him anywhere near the keys of a shed, let alone 10 Downing Street.
But, and it is a big but, I don't think he has a shred of ideological affinity for Brexit or the far right. And that to my mind makes him infinitely preferable to the ideologues like Raab and Leadsom. I also think he's the only one who possibly has the ability to neutralise Farage.
And, whilst it is an extremely low bar, he is more Prime Ministerial than Gove, who just has too much of the Gollum about him.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2019 10:51:49 GMT
I dislike Boris intensely for his flagrant pursuit of his own self-interest and ambition. To be fair, you're describing 95% of all politicians, but I agree with what you're saying.
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Post by Roadrunner on May 24, 2019 11:08:10 GMT
I dislike Boris intensely for his flagrant pursuit of his own self-interest and ambition. And in normal circumstances, I wouldn't let him anywhere near the keys of a shed, let alone 10 Downing Street. But, and it is a big but, I don't think he has a shred of ideological affinity for Brexit or the far right. And that to my mind makes him infinitely preferable to the ideologues like Raab and Leadsom. I also think he's the only one who possibly has the ability to neutralise Farage. And, whilst it is an extremely low bar, he is more Prime Ministerial than Gove, who just has too much of the Gollum about him. I agree with all of that and also add that he has more charisma than the rest and is more likely to win over floating voters from Corbyn. A case of hold your nose and vote for Boris.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2019 11:23:19 GMT
Ken Clarke was interviewed on R4 this morning and pointed out that where there's been a clear favourite in these leadership elections they have all failed to make it through to the final 2.
Agree that BJ is probably the least likely to maintain a far right view. However, it doesn't really change the problem at hand does it, they don't have a majority and their party is split like never before. How does anyone sort that out while at the same time settling in and negotiating with the EU plus actually address any of the domestic issues that are gong on?
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