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Post by Tim on Apr 21, 2017 11:05:35 GMT
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the only solution for Labour - on the assumption that they can't solve the leadership voting issue - is for the 'normal' ones to go away and start a new party and let the current Labour Party head off to the left properly.
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Post by grampa on Apr 21, 2017 11:40:07 GMT
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the only solution for Labour - on the assumption that they can't solve the leadership voting issue - is for the 'normal' ones to go away and start a new party and let the current Labour Party head off to the left properly. The problem is both 'sides' want the Labour name so they can keep all the voters who blindly vote Labour no matter what.
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Post by Alex on Apr 21, 2017 11:57:38 GMT
I'm increasingly of the opinion that the only solution for Labour - on the assumption that they can't solve the leadership voting issue - is for the 'normal' ones to go away and start a new party and let the current Labour Party head off to the left properly. The problem is both 'sides' want the Labour name so they can keep all the voters who blindly vote Labour no matter what. The break away party could always call themselves New Labour. Worked a treat in the past! I wonder if we might see the party call a new leadership contest before June 8th, although it will likely be too little too late to stop the drubbing they'll likely get.
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Post by Tim on Apr 21, 2017 13:01:43 GMT
I assume they'll wait until they get hammered and then try to get rid of him at that point, all other attempts have failed miserably. The only problem is that since the left appear to have control whoever replaces him is going to be broadly similar. We could end up with Diane Abbott as the leader of the opposition
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 21, 2017 13:24:09 GMT
We could end up with Diane Abbott as the leader of the opposition We could end up with the Lib Dems as the opposition.
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Post by michael on Apr 21, 2017 14:45:08 GMT
I take the view that an effective opposition has the chance if he's hammered. It's the only way he'll stand down though even then it's unlikely as he want to reduce the threshold by which a candidate can stand for leader. I think a split is the only real way forward and although the SDP is a warning times have changed and it's easier for new parties to gain traction.
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Post by michael on Apr 21, 2017 15:23:27 GMT
Depends how brutal the Conservative campaign is. They have all the ammunition they need as his history speaks for itself.
Some voters will be bought off with the promise of free stuff and 'them' paying for it but others won't want to put their mark to a terrorist sympathiser who has allowed anti semetism to flourish on his watch.
I'd like to think his position could be made untenable.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 21, 2017 15:23:46 GMT
I take the view that an effective opposition has the chance if he's hammered. How? If the parliamentary party is reduced to a rump in disarray, it's going to find it very hard to form an effective opposition.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 15:26:33 GMT
Whilst there are a great many compromises too far, being eternally in opposition achieves nothing. I think he's actually succeeded in shifting sentiment to the right, as evidenced by Labour's losing voters across the socioeconomic board.
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Post by michael on Apr 21, 2017 15:32:46 GMT
Because it gives them the best chance of taking action to either reclaim Labour, create a new party or strengthen the Lib Dems. Their current stance of hoping he will go is doomed to failure as the militant left becomes more entrenched. For what it's worth I doubt May will have anything like the majority expected as they'll loose a lot of seats to the Liberal Democrats and the conversation of Labour majorities seems too much of a challenge. I also think the polling is likely wrong. There will be a lead but the pollsters have adjusted their algorithms to take into account the reluctance people have admitting to voting Tory. I think the issue this time will be those polled owning up to voting Labour as right now being seen to support Corbyn in some areas can be perceived as anti British, not that bright or pro immigration. I suspect some dyed in the wool Labour voters will do so pitching for their local candidates not the leadership but won't admit to doing so. I'm only speculating but it could be close.
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Post by Tim on Apr 21, 2017 15:34:50 GMT
I take the view that an effective opposition has the chance if he's hammered. How? If the parliamentary party is reduced to a rump in disarray, it's going to find it very hard to form an effective opposition. It won't help in the short term but it MIGHT lead to a bit of reality and Labour can start the long road back.
I'd say they're in the Michael Foot position at the moment so once he's gone there's Neil Kinnock and John Smith to come before we get to Tony Blair Mk2.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 15:44:26 GMT
The idea of Diane Abbot leading anything except the queue for expenses and free holidays is as scary as Corbyn leading Labour, partly. When do the new constituency borders come in? Once that happens Labour will do well to manage a tea stand instead of the country.
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Post by Stuntman on Apr 21, 2017 20:13:03 GMT
Because it gives them the best chance of taking action to either reclaim Labour, create a new party or strengthen the Lib Dems. Their current stance of hoping he will go is doomed to failure as the militant left becomes more entrenched. For what it's worth I doubt May will have anything like the majority expected as they'll loose a lot of seats to the Liberal Democrats and the conversation of Labour majorities seems too much of a challenge. I also think the polling is likely wrong. There will be a lead but the pollsters have adjusted their algorithms to take into account the reluctance people have admitting to voting Tory. I think the issue this time will be those polled owning up to voting Labour as right now being seen to support Corbyn in some areas can be perceived as anti British, not that bright or pro immigration. I suspect some dyed in the wool Labour voters will do so pitching for their local candidates not the leadership but won't admit to doing so. I'm only speculating but it could be close. I think there's a fair amount of truth in most of this. I don't think it'll be close but I'd be surprised if the Conservatives get a majority of more than about 80. And as for a breakaway Left party (to the right of Corbyn), I agree and said so a year or so ago. 'Labour' is a tarnished brand; any breakaway party would be well advised to distance themselves from such a name. Ladbrokes have a Conservative majority at 1/7 (was 1/6 on Weds) and are offering equal odds for over/under 378.5 seats for the Conservatives and 164.5 seats for Labour. Edited to add over/under 27.5 seats for the Lib Dems. If I was betting, I'd go under for the Tories and over for Labour and especially the Lib Dems.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 21:35:07 GMT
I appreciate Corbyn says things people want to hear.... I suppose if you can overlook all that it's probably also easy to overlook him being a terrorist sympathising anti Semite. Weeeeelllll, I guess part of that is how you listen too. The efforts to deliberately confuse anti-Zionism (criticism of the political movement to establish an apartheid Jewish state), and anti-semitism (the prejudice and persecution of Jewish people) are longstanding. Israeli advocacy groups within the EU have been attempting to formalise the bogus definition of anti-semitism since at least 2005.Like I said, there are always counterpoints. The quote is from a pro-Labour site, but then if The Mail and the rest are happy to cherry pick their bias I'm happy to do so too. www.thecanary.co/2016/04/28/how-the-establishment-is-trying-to-silence-corbyn-and-the-left-with-cries-of-anti-semitism/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 21:51:07 GMT
At the risk of boring Bob, yeah... I kinda align with a fair bit of this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 22:09:07 GMT
I don't get why declaring yourself as a "moralist" is a bad thing, either.
You know, as opposed to slashing the budget and aid for the homeless, cutting disability payments and trying to introduce laws to snoop on all email.
Plus there is that Internet porn thing. Grrrr.
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Post by michael on Apr 22, 2017 8:47:06 GMT
You don't need to go to the Daily Mail to read about Labours anti semetism problem. The Guardian, The Newstatesmen and even the Mirror cover it. Under Corbyn Labour has had to suspend an MP, their former London mayor and around twenty members for anti semetism. It's thriving under Corbyn. Perhaps watch his performance at the launch of the Chakrobati Report and his reaction to the abuse of Ruth Smeeth by an audience member who Corbyn is later caught joking about it. It's remarkable how those on the left tolerate this and have the audacity to claim a moral high ground.
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Post by michael on Apr 22, 2017 8:54:24 GMT
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Post by PG on Apr 22, 2017 20:19:11 GMT
Looking at the Pie video, it's ironic that on the one hand we've got to recognise the difference between anti-Zionism and antisemitism and yet on the other hand, anybody who has any sort of moral perspective or social democratic view must be a socialist. Er...no. Socialism is a particular view. Not a general view.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2017 23:00:08 GMT
You don't need to go to the Daily Mail to read about Labours anti semetism problem. The Guardian, The Newstatesmen and even the Mirror cover it. You're not seriously suggesting the Granuiad, Newstatesmen (sic) and the fucking Mirror are bastions of truthful reporting? If so I have a bridge in London I'm prepared to sell at a reasonable price if you're interested. I fully admit that there is a problem with some anti-Semite opinions within Labour. Indeed, I think it's a failing of Corbyn that this wasn't stamped out. If you prefer what Darth May is doing, what she is ripping asunder then that's fine. We look to what is best for us. If Corbyn revolts you, again, that's fine - but look a little deeper than what's reported.
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Post by michael on Apr 23, 2017 6:53:11 GMT
What is it you think May is doing that is so bad you can tolerate anti-semetism in Labour leadership? It's immoral to tolerate that and especially so when it's in return for free stuff from the magic money tree. And I dig plenty deep which is why I bother to read a variety of view points including those from the left. You've admitted Labour have a problem with Jewish people so what is it you think is being misreported? We both seem to agree there's an anti-semetism problem, I can't imagine how you'd argue he's anything other than he's incompetent or that he's not a terrorist sympathiser so what is being misreported that I'm having to dig for?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 12:48:35 GMT
The new Bank Holiday idea looks like a crude attempt to get The People onside...
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Post by michael on Apr 23, 2017 15:21:46 GMT
"Down with the bankers - let's give them four days holiday"
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 23, 2017 22:38:07 GMT
This is not Corbyn vs May much as the Tories want it to be.
Yes, Corbyn is a prize arse who lives in his own universe. But so are May and her sorry bunch of fantasists.
You vote for the Tories. I refuse point-blank to do so. That doesn't mean I in any way agree with Corbyn.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 24, 2017 7:24:14 GMT
The trouble with Corbyn's brand of Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. It's a trite statement but true. At the moment he seems to be waking up, having dreamed up a new policy, and just puts it out there without consulting his party or even giving any thought as to how it would work. Many years ago some of the Labour party set up the Social Democratic Party - it was popular for a while before dissolving into the Liberal Democrats and then into the Liberal Party. Would it work again? Macron only set up his party in France last year and he seems to have hit a sweet spot with the electorate and is currently leading the Presidential race there. If the Labour party continue down this path of self-destruction it may be the only option for those seek a more centrist brand of socialism.
I still hate Jonathan Pie though - he's a twat, and it must be remembered he's a comedian desperately seeking an audience.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2017 7:56:31 GMT
Not sure what it says about my level of engagement with the parties that I've been spelling Corbyn's surname incorrectly...
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 24, 2017 10:01:08 GMT
Hitherto, I've never previously voted for any party other than the Tories. But I shall be breaking that habit of a lifetime this time. Little in life is certain but I can be certain of that.
The Tories crossed a red line I wasn't previously aware I had, and that's that.
Interestingly, a survey by The Lawyer (leading legal profession's journal) this morning showed the LibDems coming out on top in terms of stated electoral intentions. I can imagine that is because Labour holds little appeal and the Tories' trampling of legal and political protocol and niceties has put lawyerly backs collectively up.
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Post by Tim on Apr 24, 2017 14:07:12 GMT
I was reading an article about the French elections on the BBC website and was struck that there appear to be several parallels - the Socialist mob elected someone who is even more left wing and saw their share of the vote plummet, there's been a general movement to the right - mirroring the rise of UKIP and the response to that.
I think the thing they have that we don't is a more central party that's actually electable - Tim Farron and the Lib Dems are hardly the same as Macron.
I'm thinking that a breakaway from Labour, targeting the Blair era of voters, would actually fill that equivalent gap and be the best solution for Labour voter who don't want to vote for Corbyn and those who might vote Tory but feel uncomfortable going that far right?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39691111
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Post by PG on Apr 24, 2017 17:05:10 GMT
I'm interested what people think is so right wing about May? Apart from Brexit (and that's not a right wing policy but a cross party policy - well excluding the Lib Dems), she seems more one nation than many other people in the party.
She has a Chancellor who wants to put some taxes up - that's not very right wing; wants to re-introduce some grammar schools - which was a concensus policy for a long time until; is talking about price constraints on utility suppliers; she even talked about worker representation on company boards.
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Post by michael on Apr 24, 2017 17:11:24 GMT
She does take a more right wing approach to civil liberties with the snoopers charter and the Henry VIII clauses Racing mentioned.
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