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Post by Big Blue on Apr 2, 2018 0:17:37 GMT
I assume there’s no mistaking my political leanings but regardless of that the stories surrounding the anti-semitism within the Labour Party raise an eyebrow or, in the case of the late Roger Moore, two.
Firstly there’s the Daily Mail image of an anti-Semite. Nazi Armband and tattoos of eagles on globes. This clearly paints Corbyn in a bad light in the eyes of large sections of voters.
Then there’s the actual persona of a lot of anti-Semite activists: Palestinian sympathisers, of which Corbyn is one.
Thirdly there’s the issue of who’s bad and why for Media purposes. Muslim “baddies” are people who blow up tube trains, drive vans into crowds of people and promote videos beheading infidels. In the UK at least.
Of course there are many non-Christian voters and members in all parties and to that end it’s easier to portray anti-Semitism as a throwback to Nazism, something unpopular among right-thinking individuals and which doesn’t upset minority sections of society given that white fascists are not wanted by mainstream parties and can be portrayed in the media however they fancy.
So the Labour Party is caught up in something caused, in part, by its leader’s support for Palestine which generally manifests itself as a hatred of the state of Israel which then becomes anti-Semitism which then becomes Nazism.
Not it sure where I was going with that but had to say something about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 6:36:41 GMT
There is always a certain amount of 'top spin' on topics like this and I wonder who is driving this particular bus. No doubt Corbyn will weather this storm too.
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Post by Alex on Apr 2, 2018 15:23:44 GMT
Being far too young to remember the reasons behind and the thinking that went into the creation of Israel after the Second World War it’s difficult to really know which site is right. Of course the atrocities meted out upon the European Jewish communities was horrific and to grant them a land they could consider a safe haven was the least the world could do, however the Palestinians do have some right to be aggrieved that they had land they considered theirs taken away to create the state of Israel. My knowledge of the issue is far too little for me to really take a side and so I won’t, however it is admirable that Jeremy Corbyn is willing to stick up for those he feels are being persecuted. From a political point of view, however, letting his views cause him so many problems shows he is either politically naive, is of poor judgement or is lacking a decent PR team and doesn’t help his cause in trying to convince the electorate that he is the right person to lead the Labour Party let alone the country.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 3, 2018 7:13:21 GMT
Years ago I was sympathetic to the Palestinian cause but they've had numerous opportunities to stop the violence and build a peaceful and prosperous community but they've rejected them all. I think it was during Clinton's time that they were offered 98% of everything they wanted but Yasser Arafat and his leadership rejected it. You reach the point when you think that the Palestinian leadership want the struggle to continue so they stay in power and the Palestinians want to stay cast as perennial victims.
There is a danger that we see any criticism of the state of Israel cast in the light of anti-semitism by Jewish lobby groups but when you see a left of centre BBC, staffed almost entirely by left wing journalists calling out the Labour Party you know there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if Corbyn is anti-semitic but at best he's naive and has turned a blind eye to it within his party. I can't see myself ever voting Labour again while him and Jim McDonnell are leading it. Both are unfit to govern.
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Post by franki68 on Apr 3, 2018 8:00:08 GMT
I think it’s six times now the Palestinian leadership has turned down a peace settlement .Abbas has stated he turned one down in 08 ,where they were offered 98.5% of the 1967 borders ,with East Jerusalem as their capital . You do wonder what the objective is as I really can’t see any other possible solution to the issue ,yet they keep turning peace down and they are not exactly in a position of strength.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 8:30:00 GMT
I think peace is a far off goal but the Israeli side seem to do more while trying to keep their population happy. Not an easy task. The Palistininian side does seem to have a preference to shooting itself in both feet. There is a book and I know it is fiction but it had one of the best idea's around. Jerusalem as a free city with a police force made up of neutral nationalsin the same ilk as the Swiss guard. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Swiss_GuardThat would mean making a decision and that would upset the status quo that isn't.
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2018 9:53:54 GMT
......the Palestinians want to stay cast as perennial victims. There is a danger that we see any criticism of the state of Israel cast in the light of anti-semitism by Jewish lobby groups but when you see a left of centre BBC, staffed almost entirely by left wing journalists calling out the Labour Party you know there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if Corbyn is anti-semitic but at best he's naive and has turned a blind eye to it within his party. I can't see myself ever voting Labour again while him and Jim McDonnell are leading it. Both are unfit to govern.
I always see Israel casting themselves as the perennial victims......
I'm sure this makes me anti-Semitic in some eyes but aside from their treatment of the Palestinians I have few positive thoughts on the policies of the Israelis.
Also, can we stop the Left-leaning BBC comments. I consider myself to be in the centre ground and as far as I can judge the BBC manage to be reasonably neutral. There may be times when they lean either way in their reporting of some issues but its never far off-centre and certainly not as biased as some of our allegedly independent print media (the majority of whom appear to be towards the right).
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Post by franki68 on Apr 3, 2018 10:07:34 GMT
......the Palestinians want to stay cast as perennial victims. There is a danger that we see any criticism of the state of Israel cast in the light of anti-semitism by Jewish lobby groups but when you see a left of centre BBC, staffed almost entirely by left wing journalists calling out the Labour Party you know there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if Corbyn is anti-semitic but at best he's naive and has turned a blind eye to it within his party. I can't see myself ever voting Labour again while him and Jim McDonnell are leading it. Both are unfit to govern.
I always see Israel casting themselves as the perennial victims......
I'm sure this makes me anti-Semitic in some eyes but aside from their treatment of the Palestinians I have few positive thoughts on the policies of the Israelis.
Also, can we stop the Left-leaning BBC comments. I consider myself to be in the centre ground and as far as I can judge the BBC manage to be reasonably neutral. There may be times when they lean either way in their reporting of some issues but its never far off-centre and certainly not as biased as some of our allegedly independent print media (the majority of whom appear to be towards the right).
I agree about the bbc,they are left leaning but generally try to offer a balanced view of most matters ,unlike say channel 4 . I’m not sure about Israel being a perennial victim ,it’s not them that have turned down a Palestinian state repeatedly .
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2018 10:14:37 GMT
I didn't mean the Isrealis were projecting themselves as the victims against Palestine, just in general.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 3, 2018 10:21:40 GMT
......the Palestinians want to stay cast as perennial victims. There is a danger that we see any criticism of the state of Israel cast in the light of anti-semitism by Jewish lobby groups but when you see a left of centre BBC, staffed almost entirely by left wing journalists calling out the Labour Party you know there's no smoke without fire. I don't know if Corbyn is anti-semitic but at best he's naive and has turned a blind eye to it within his party. I can't see myself ever voting Labour again while him and Jim McDonnell are leading it. Both are unfit to govern.
I always see Israel casting themselves as the perennial victims......
I'm sure this makes me anti-Semitic in some eyes but aside from their treatment of the Palestinians I have few positive thoughts on the policies of the Israelis.
Also, can we stop the Left-leaning BBC comments. I consider myself to be in the centre ground and as far as I can judge the BBC manage to be reasonably neutral. There may be times when they lean either way in their reporting of some issues but its never far off-centre and certainly not as biased as some of our allegedly independent print media (the majority of whom appear to be towards the right).
Victims as in every country around them has declared they wish to see the Israelis driven from the Middle East and have launched a number of wars to achieve that? It's also interesting to note that Arabs living in Israel have more rights and a better standard of living than those living in neighbouring countries who would depose them. The Israelis were given a barren scrap of land that a few people had barely scraped a living on for a couple of thousand years and within a few decades they turned it into a thriving economy, feeding themselves and exporting food around the World. I'm sure the Palestinians would like to restore it to its former glory. Left-leaning BBC? It is left-leaning, I don't think many people disagree with that, certainly not within the BBC itself. My comment that most of the journos who staff it are more than left-leaning stands up to scrutiny too.
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Post by scouse on Apr 3, 2018 10:40:13 GMT
Victims as in every country around them has declared they wish to see the Israelis driven from the Middle East and have launched a number of wars to achieve that? It's also interesting to note that Arabs living in Israel have more rights and a better standard of living than those living in neighbouring countries who would depose them. The Israelis were given a barren scrap of land that a few people had barely scraped a living on for a couple of thousand years and within a few decades they turned it into a thriving economy, feeding themselves and exporting food around the World. I'm sure the Palestinians would like to restore it to its former glory. Left-leaning BBC? It is left-leaning, I don't think many people disagree with that, certainly not within the BBC itself. My comment that most of the journos who staff it are more than left-leaning stands up to scrutiny too. This, x lots. As for Corbyn, he is either an anti-semite himself or he's so blind to it, he has no place near the leadership of any party this side of the Nazi party or his friends Hamas.
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Post by Tim on Apr 3, 2018 10:43:57 GMT
I have little sympathy for any of the countries in that part of the world.
I'm still not seeing the BBC bias. Mind you I stopped watching much TV when I got my Netflix sub and I definitely gave up on things like Question Time years ago - more because I couldn't stand Dimbleby's inability to chair it very well than for any particular politics!
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Post by PG on Apr 3, 2018 13:11:34 GMT
This, x lots. As for Corbyn, he is either an anti-semite himself or he's so blind to it, he has no place near the leadership of any party this side of the Nazi party or his friends Hamas. Agreed re Corbyn. His support for the IRA, Hamas, Chavez (whose economic policies he admires) etc ets show just how dangerous or deluded he really is.
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Post by alf on Apr 20, 2018 8:27:21 GMT
I disagree with those who are making out this is some kind of anti-Corbyn media spin. That's typical Momentum double-think - look at the actual issue, don't complain about it being reported. Antisemitism in the Labour party (or more specifically JC's Momentum power base, which is taking over the Labour Party) is an issue that is not going away. They associate with not just the Palestinian cause but the terrorist groups that support it, and there is a shocking amount of antisemitism and holocaust denial amongst Momentum members. The same people that can rant and rave about all sorts of PC supposed "injustices" are quiet when it comes to massive freedom issues like forced marriages and other blatant sexism in certain cultural groups (because they vote for Labour, often as family groups not individuals, which is why I'm against postal voting) but when it comes to the Jews they are holocaust deniers and make disgusting comments about basically exterminating them. It's a spectacular failure to see the bigger picture, Momentum seem to only be interested in people's rights when it is in their political interest. Human rights and freedoms are absolute, not political, I support the freedom of any group personally whether or not I have any personal allegiance to it. Anyway, this issue is not going away, this was my local paper this week. What a surprise - an academic JC support and Momentum member with the same disgusting views: www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk/news/16167620.University_launches__antisemitism__investigation_over_posts_on_lecturer_s_social_media_pages/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 8:35:37 GMT
I have no strong stance either way, but that doesn't feel like a very thoroughly-researched piece. Being a member of a facebook page doesn't automatically mean that one holds views that others post there.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 20, 2018 8:51:12 GMT
I have no strong stance either way, but that doesn't feel like a very thoroughly-researched piece. Being a member of a facebook page doesn't automatically mean that one holds views that others post there. We are judged by the company we keep. Anyone on my facebook page that issues any racist remarks is immediately blocked.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 9:01:08 GMT
Judging by the amount of arguments that erupt on facebook pages, logic would suggest that consensus is not the norm. And not being a member of that (or any) facebook group, I have no idea whether the issue of Holocaust denial* is rife there or occasional. I'm not saying that she is or isn't anti-Semitic - merely observing that the piece in question doesn't seem like quality journalism to me.
*Deborah Lisptadt's books on the subject are fascinating and highly recommended.
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Post by scouse on Apr 20, 2018 9:08:31 GMT
I have no strong stance either way, but that doesn't feel like a very thoroughly-researched piece. Being a member of a facebook page doesn't automatically mean that one holds views that others post there. I agree to some extent, but when you're re-posting these type of things yourself, not merely someone else on a group that you are a member of, it's a different matter. And the original article was on the Huff Post, not exactly a conservative website/news portal.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 20, 2018 9:26:55 GMT
She does seem to be a deeply unpleasant individual.
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Post by alf on Apr 20, 2018 9:56:48 GMT
She posted and shared stuff - that's completely different to just accidentally being a member of a group that happens to have horrid views then claiming you did not realise.
My point is, this is not a one-off. The most fervently JC-supporting political groups are antisemitic to their very core, and frequently go well beyond the territory of racist slurs into comments about wiping out an entire race, and holocaust denial. How can people who campaign on a platform of social justice and equality be so two-faced when it comes to certain groups? Momentum's website says:
"we could build a society free from all types of discrimination, through strengthening the rights of oppressed and minority groups"
But their facebook groups and forums are rife with the most disgusting antisemitism and it's not a few feral nutjobs, people like my example above (which I pick as she works in my local town, I'm hardly clutching at straws) are supposedly respectable academics, councillors, and so on. Too many have been Momentum and/or Labour members, and people directly involved in the running of those two organisations, for it to be a coincidence. I think they just genuinely do not have a grip on reality. Momentum's creed is one of hatred to my eyes, their business seems to be "targeting" those they disagree with and I can't stand this type of confrontational, hatred-led politics which we seem to have adopted now in the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 10:41:03 GMT
Many years ago while stationed in West Germany I had the opportunity to speak to many different people among the population. One was a Pole who was claimning to have been conscripted into the SS during the last 18 months of the war and he was quite proud of that which struck me as odd for a Pole. Another was a fighter pilot who had the opinion that many terrible things happened during the war, the holocaust was just one of them. One of the people I got to speak to was a survivor of Bergen-Belsen camp. She had been in the camp when it was liberated by British units. She was one of those who came to the UK and eventually married one of the soldiers that liberated Bergen-Belsen. I worked with her son, a Sergeant in the Coldstream Guards. None of those I spoke to denied the holocaust. I do not understand how anyone can even consider removing a part of the population wholesale. What sort of mindset does it take to do that. I do completely support the removal of overseas travelers in the UK, particularly those who do all their traveling within the UK while hating us all the time. It's mutual, they should go back to the auld country and travel there for a long time, permanantly perhaps. I do not think killing them is the answer. It would make a mess........ I do find that the Jewish organisations tend to want to force feed the rest of us with wailing protestations of the holocaust like it was yesterday. Perhaps we should just live our lives and remove all propaganda, let sleeping dogs lie and remove all hate speeches or promotion speeches from all sides.
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Post by franki68 on Apr 20, 2018 12:36:17 GMT
I do find that the Jewish organisations tend to want to force feed the rest of us with wailing protestations of the holocaust like it was yesterday. Perhaps we should just live our lives and remove all propaganda, let sleeping dogs lie and remove all hate speeches or promotion speeches from all sides. 'never forget' It's part of the jewish psyche .People must not be allowed to forget,because it must never happen again.(Unfortunately it has in places like Rwanda etc)
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 20, 2018 15:06:10 GMT
I don't find that Jewish organisations shove the holocaust down our throat, especially having had parents that lived in Germany and a step-brother educated there where the German state is the main driver behind this kind of behaviour. It's still law that all children in German schools, and in many other EU states, have to visit a KZ as part of their education of the horrors inflicted by mankind on its own species. I do find, however, the muslim community to be far more vociferous about their rights, religious recognition, "laws" (in inverted commas for a reason) and beliefs than others.
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Post by Tim on Apr 23, 2018 11:53:42 GMT
But their facebook groups and forums are rife with the most disgusting antisemitism and it's not a few feral nutjobs, people like my example above (which I pick as she works in my local town, I'm hardly clutching at straws) are supposedly respectable academics, councillors, and so on. Too many have been Momentum and/or Labour members, and people directly involved in the running of those two organisations, for it to be a coincidence. I think they just genuinely do not have a grip on reality. Momentum's creed is one of hatred to my eyes, their business seems to be "targeting" those they disagree with and I can't stand this type of confrontational, hatred-led politics which we seem to have adopted now in the UK.
It's clear that some sections of the Labour movement have massive issues in regard to anti-Semitism but being fair about this I'm sure you could look on all sorts of facearse forums set up by supporters of any of the parties and find plenty of unpleasant posts being shared.
You mentioned earlier about "The same people that can rant and rave about all sorts of PC supposed "injustices" are quiet when it comes to massive freedom issues like forced marriages and other blatant sexism in certain cultural groups" Lets not forget that our Government (and many previous ones of all colours) actively supports things like arms sales to places like Saudi. Basically, they're all guilty of some form of 'ism' but at the moment the media have really got their teeth into Momentum. Maybe after the summer it'll be some other group?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 24, 2018 7:31:14 GMT
But their facebook groups and forums are rife with the most disgusting antisemitism and it's not a few feral nutjobs, people like my example above (which I pick as she works in my local town, I'm hardly clutching at straws) are supposedly respectable academics, councillors, and so on. Too many have been Momentum and/or Labour members, and people directly involved in the running of those two organisations, for it to be a coincidence. I think they just genuinely do not have a grip on reality. Momentum's creed is one of hatred to my eyes, their business seems to be "targeting" those they disagree with and I can't stand this type of confrontational, hatred-led politics which we seem to have adopted now in the UK.
It's clear that some sections of the Labour movement have massive issues in regard to anti-Semitism but being fair about this I'm sure you could look on all sorts of facearse forums set up by supporters of any of the parties and find plenty of unpleasant posts being shared.
You mentioned earlier about "The same people that can rant and rave about all sorts of PC supposed "injustices" are quiet when it comes to massive freedom issues like forced marriages and other blatant sexism in certain cultural groups" Lets not forget that our Government (and many previous ones of all colours) actively supports things like arms sales to places like Saudi. Basically, they're all guilty of some form of 'ism' but at the moment the media have really got their teeth into Momentum. Maybe after the summer it'll be some other group?
I'm not having a go at you personally but it's this sort of; "well they're all at it " attitude that has prevented Labour from not taking this seriously and tackling it. "Whataboutism" is the scourge of modern politics.
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Post by Tim on Apr 24, 2018 9:37:34 GMT
No offence taken but my point isn't that they're all at it, it's that they're all at it and they should sort themselves out.
I'm sure that, at present, the Tories are rubbing their hands at this. Next week/month/year they'll be the ones in the firing line and Labour will be smugly rubbing their hands.
What I really want to see is some decent reporting and interviewing. If a Tory raises this issue (which is fair enough, they really should) the reporter should let them have their say but in addition should then challenge them on their own party's ongoing fuck ups. Do the same with Labour when the time comes and perhaps the arseholes that govern us (and also the pricks that own the media) might actually make some changes.
There are too many times I watch some news report and at the end of it am left frustrated because the obvious question for that particular interviewee has been ignored.
Perhaps when we get a decent independent media there'll be more objectivity.....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 11:28:11 GMT
"Perhaps when we get a decent independent media there'll be more objectivity".....
That would be the day etc.......
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 24, 2018 12:19:39 GMT
"Perhaps when we get a decent independent media there'll be more objectivity"..... That would be the day etc....... I thought we decided that as those left of centre thought the BBC was right wing and vice versa that they were actually as unbiased as we could get?
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Post by racingteatray on May 1, 2018 15:47:14 GMT
I think the main issue is that Corbyn has seemed slightly lukewarm in his interest/efforts to deal with the anti-semitism issue whereas it usually doesn’t take much for him to get very fired up and passionate on a subject, particularly if it involves bashing capitalist interests or “the West”. It’s the contrast that is noticeable and raises the questions.
It just begs the legitimate question as to whether all minorities are actually equal in his eyes.
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Post by Tim on May 1, 2018 15:55:40 GMT
I think the main issue is that Corbyn has seemed slightly lukewarm in his interest/efforts to deal with the anti-semitism issue whereas it usually doesn’t take much for him to get very fired up and passionate on a subject, particularly if it involves bashing capitalist interests or “the West”. It’s the contrast that is noticeable and raises the questions. It just begs the legitimate question as to whether all minorities are actually equal in his eyes.
He hasn't sprung into decisive action about this has he. It certainly doesn't bode well if he ever actually became PM, something that I feel is solidly in the Tories hands - if they succeed in tearing themselves in 2 and make a bollocks of the Brexit deal they'll be handing a win to Labour.
Scary.
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