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Post by scouse on Mar 17, 2018 0:28:33 GMT
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 17, 2018 12:36:35 GMT
The police service is fucked. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 15:14:30 GMT
The police service is fucked. That has been true for a long long time now. The amount of distrust between the police and the public is immense. I would not trust the police to do the other thing that requires paperwork after the fact. |
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Post by PG on Mar 18, 2018 10:48:32 GMT
If someone does something that isn’t a criminal offence but the victim, or anyone else, believes it was motivated by prejudice or hate, we would class this as a ‘hate incident’. Though what the perpetrator has done may not be against the law, their reasons for doing it are. This means it may be possible to charge them with an offence.
I'm trying to think what could possibly be caught by that? That does seem a totally weird statement for the police to make. Thought crime anybody??
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Post by scouse on Mar 18, 2018 11:15:56 GMT
If someone does something that isn’t a criminal offence but the victim, or anyone else, believes it was motivated by prejudice or hate, we would class this as a ‘hate incident’. Though what the perpetrator has done may not be against the law, their reasons for doing it are. This means it may be possible to charge them with an offence.
I'm trying to think what could possibly be caught by that? That does seem a totally weird statement for the police to make. Thought crime anybody?? This is the scary part. YOU don’t actually have to have the ‘hateful’ thoughts, someone else just has to believe that you did. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 18, 2018 11:41:01 GMT
I've got a cousin, 55, acting Inspector, no-nonsense copper and another friend, similar age who are both leaving The Force. They're getting out as the people they have in management positions within the police service now it really is a case of the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
By that statement The Met is basically saying it will decide what is free speech in this country.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Mar 19, 2018 9:21:31 GMT
If someone does something that isn’t a criminal offence but the victim, or anyone else, believes it was motivated by prejudice or hate, we would class this as a ‘hate incident’. Though what the perpetrator has done may not be against the law, their reasons for doing it are. This means it may be possible to charge them with an offence.
I'm trying to think what could possibly be caught by that? That does seem a totally weird statement for the police to make. Thought crime anybody?? That, in a nutshell. We've gone silly over it. Yes, there needs to be protection but the scope of that is very wide indeed. It is also burdonsome on investigating officers because even minor crimes that would normally be a police charging decision are, if there is a hate element, CPS charging decisions. That means a wildly disproportionate amount of time and paperwork which in many cases simply doesn't match the level of crime. I know, because much of the previous 15 months have been taken up with an ongoing serious of neighbour issues which one party feels is hate related and, fuck me, it's worn me down with the amount of work involved. |
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Post by johnc on Mar 19, 2018 12:51:48 GMT
So how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone has been thinking something when they haven't done anything illegal to demonstrate that they were thinking it?
So when someone says, after a spate of house burglaries - they should string the wee bastards up when they catch them - that person should now be prosecuted for believing someone should be hanged (hung).
I'm sorry but all these snow flakes should be subjected to a serious dose of heat. |
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Post by PG on Mar 19, 2018 13:17:41 GMT
so I guess that Jeremy Clarkson saying that Gordon Brown was a one eyed Scottish idiot would result in Jeremy getting his collar felt? Yes, the idiots truly have taken over the asylum.
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Post by scouse on Apr 4, 2018 23:25:32 GMT
Today’s craziness:
Today:
>a 76 year old arrested for murder when two men half his age broke into his home & assaulted him, one using a screwdriver
>a 50 year old man was in court for having a golliwog in his own home
>Male voice choir told it can no longer represent a police force as it doesn’t have any women🙄
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 5, 2018 8:59:34 GMT
Today’s craziness: Today: >a 76 year old arrested for murder when two men half his age broke into his home & assaulted him, one using a screwdriver >a 50 year old man was in court for having a golliwog in his own home >Male voice choir told it can no longer represent a police force as it doesn’t have any women🙄 Madness isn't it? How can someone be arrested for pre-meditated murder when attacked in his own home - why didn't the police say he's been taken in for questioning and leave it at that? The golliwog - man was reported by a 20 year old white female student who has taken it upon herself to be offended for the black community. Now, as far as I know, it is not illegal or an offence to own or display a golliwog but I understand it can be a sensitive subject so common sense would suggest that any officer visiting the property on the back of a complaint might suggest to the homeowner that re-positioning it within the house and out of sight of passers by might be helpful all round. No need for it to go any further. The choir thing just boggles the mind, the clue's in the name surely? I suppose they could re-brand as "Cops with Cocks" but I'm not sure that would exclude all the WPCs I've come across. My Council Tax has gone up and the biggest increase is the police component of it. They constantly whinge about being short of money while wasting it on this shit while allowing violent crime to run out of control. Stop being a Police Service with shitty little slogans written down the side of their cars and go back to being a Police Force for a start. |
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 9:24:41 GMT
Re the burglary, the arrest on suspicion of murder is because an investigation needs to take place. He will have been questioned on what happened and now he has been released on bail. The issue is that it seems draconian but in the legal system as it stands, it is necessary to deal with it that way. His defence will well and truly be that he was acting in self defence and that the force used was reasonable in the circumstances. It may be that the CPS decide this based on available evidence or it may be that a court decides. Personally, I have no sympathy for the burglar. Tough shit. And I do have a good deal of sympathy for the burglary victim. But these stories do stoke up a rather simplistic view of things sometimes, ably assisted by the press.
The golliwog issue, without knowing the facts, is difficult to form an opinion on. Yep, it seems silly that it got to court but, penny to a pinch of shit, there's rather more to it.
The male voice choir issue is, frankly, idiotic. A male voice choir won't sound like a male voice choir with female voices. Just have two choirs or a male voice choir and a mixed choir.
And, yes, there is some idiotic stuff the police get dragged into. The "public" complain at what the police do, yet when asked what they want the police to do, the "public" expects ever more. It's a conundrum.
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Post by PetrolEd on Apr 5, 2018 9:29:09 GMT
I'd be more up for a two or more tier police force like the French system.
We should have an extended riot police who go around in packs operating out of vans and being the general nasty police who deal with the arseholes of society and should be allowed to work over these scrotes without too much fuss. We should then have community policing more in line with the friendly Bobby on the beat.
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Post by Tim on Apr 5, 2018 9:31:48 GMT
And, yes, there is some idiotic stuff the police get dragged into. The "public" complain at what the police do, yet when asked what they want the police to do, the "public" expects ever more. It's a conundrum.
Exactly
Weren't there some 999 calls when KFC had their supply issues recently?
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Post by scouse on Apr 5, 2018 9:53:50 GMT
It’s the rank & file I feel sorry for. You can bet that these sort of decisions or policies have been put in place by senior officers more concerned with pleasing the Guardian than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 10:00:52 GMT
It's rather sad that something like the Gollywog which never (as far as I know) represented a person or race of people, can acquire such a tarnished reputation. The paper figures slipped behind the label on marmalade jars was collected by children. The Black and White minstrel show was not intended as a racial slur either so how far will the PC revolution go? Anyone see Minority Report? Can that really be what people want?
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 5, 2018 10:11:58 GMT
I'd be more up for a two or more tier police force like the French system. We should have an extended riot police who go around in packs operating out of vans and being the general nasty police who deal with the arseholes of society and should be allowed to work over these scrotes without too much fuss. We should then have community policing more in line with the friendly Bobby on the beat. Yes lots of European countries have this: Policia Locale vs Carabineri in Italy; CNP vs Guardia Civil in Spain (although that's city vs countryside policing) etc. When I grew up we had the SPG in the Met who used to turn up in black vans at closing time on a Friday and Saturday night, beat up and/or arrest anyone that looked a bit arsey then vanish until the following week, leaving the local bobbies to suffer the SPG-caused abuse for the rest of the week. So the moral is if we are to have a two tier police force it must be well publicised so that one tier doesn't cop [sic] the abuse caused by the activity of the other. I've been in an Italian square at night when the Carabineri car was being heckled and goaded whereas the local guy got a cheerful nod and smile. |
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Post by PG on Apr 5, 2018 14:39:46 GMT
Re the burglary, the arrest on suspicion of murder is because an investigation needs to take place. He will have been questioned on what happened and now he has been released on bail. The issue is that it seems draconian but in the legal system as it stands, it is necessary to deal with it that way. An investigation has to take place anyway. An investigation is often opened by the police way before they have a suspect or arrest anyone. Plus, from my understanding of the law, it is not necessary to arrest somebody to question them. The man could be asked to assist the police with their enquiries - and in that case he would not be cautioned / arrested. And if they did want to arrest him, why murder? Why not manslaughter? Smacks of "PC" gone mad to me. |
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Post by PG on Apr 5, 2018 14:53:07 GMT
I'd be more up for a two or more tier police force like the French system. We should have an extended riot police who go around in packs operating out of vans and being the general nasty police who deal with the arseholes of society and should be allowed to work over these scrotes without too much fuss. We should then have community policing more in line with the friendly Bobby on the beat. Yes lots of European countries have this: Policia Locale vs Carabineri in Italy; CNP vs Guardia Civil in Spain (although that's city vs countryside policing) etc. When I grew up we had the SPG in the Met who used to turn up in black vans at closing time on a Friday and Saturday night, beat up and/or arrest anyone that looked a bit arsey then vanish until the following week, leaving the local bobbies to suffer the SPG-caused abuse for the rest of the week. So the moral is if we are to have a two tier police force it must be well publicised so that one tier doesn't cop [sic] the abuse caused by the activity of the other. I've been in an Italian square at night when the Carabineri car was being heckled and goaded whereas the local guy got a cheerful nod and smile. I don't think a two tier police system, a la Europe, could work in the UK. The national force on the continent is usually almost a para-military force, whereas the local force always seems almost too parochial. UK policing has always been "by consent" and national paramilitary units don't really follow that concept. And the whole by consent thing is where we seem to have gone wrong. If the police are to represent the people, as they should, then they need to focus on the crimes that matter to people. Your average citizen would be quite welcoming of a mouthy yob being given a clip round the ear and even a quick thwack with a night stick. But that's simply not allowed any more - and it was not front line officers who made those policy decisions. And defending you own home and your loved ones is common sense. I don't want to go back to the 1970's and the SPG / North Yorkshire examples of open violence, but we've gone way to far the other way. |
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 16:00:54 GMT
Re the burglary, the arrest on suspicion of murder is because an investigation needs to take place. He will have been questioned on what happened and now he has been released on bail. The issue is that it seems draconian but in the legal system as it stands, it is necessary to deal with it that way. An investigation has to take place anyway. An investigation is often opened by the police way before they have a suspect or arrest anyone. Plus, from my understanding of the law, it is not necessary to arrest somebody to question them. The man could be asked to assist the police with their enquiries - and in that case he would not be cautioned / arrested. And if they did want to arrest him, why murder? Why not manslaughter? Smacks of "PC" gone mad to me. Arresting on suspicion of murder is standard practice, I would say. Arresting someone, provided it is proportionate and necessary in the circumstances, provides further investigative opportunities that interviewing voluntarily, for example, does not. In addition, if not interviewed under Caution (or simply asked some questions) then what they say is potentially inadmissible as evidence. I'd say that, in my opinion, whatever else the police do wrong in this country, murder investigations are usually of the very highest quality, genuinely world class. |
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Post by PG on Apr 5, 2018 16:23:11 GMT
Arresting on suspicion of murder is standard practice, I would say. Arresting someone, provided it is proportionate and necessary in the circumstances, provides further investigative opportunities that interviewing voluntarily, for example, does not. In addition, if not interviewed under Caution (or simply asked some questions) then what they say is potentially inadmissible as evidence. I'd say that, in my opinion, whatever else the police do wrong in this country, murder investigations are usually of the very highest quality, genuinely world class. But he was the victim of a burglary (let's assume that is the case). It is not a murder investigation unless the police are satisfied that a murder has been committed. At the moment it is (or so I believe it ought to be) an investigation into the death in violent circumstances of a burglar. To my mind that's a totally different scenario to a murder investigation. I'm not saying they should not investigate his death, but that calling it a "murder investigation" is the wrong thing to call it. Surely senior police officers who approved his arrest must realise that the word "murder" has some pretty strong connotations in society? |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 5, 2018 16:30:22 GMT
Arresting on suspicion of murder is standard practice, I would say. Arresting someone, provided it is proportionate and necessary in the circumstances, provides further investigative opportunities that interviewing voluntarily, for example, does not. In addition, if not interviewed under Caution (or simply asked some questions) then what they say is potentially inadmissible as evidence. I'd say that, in my opinion, whatever else the police do wrong in this country, murder investigations are usually of the very highest quality, genuinely world class. Surely senior police officers who approved his arrest must realise that the word "murder" has some pretty strong connotations in society? Yes, but you're crediting those officers with some common sense and we all know how that is in short supply. I agree with you; using the term 'murder' was always going to get the media frothing and it should have been worded differently. All they've done now is put their investigation under even greater scrutiny. |
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 16:34:43 GMT
The early indications - that a man died nearby an address where it appeared that he had been inside and sustained fatal injuries - make it very much a murder investigation from the off. Ultimately the reasons the man died, how he was injured and why will come out of that investigation but, in the interests of gathering the very best evidence and in the interests of justice, it has to be treated as such. The job of the investigation isn't to find people "guilty", it's to find the truth. Yes, "murder" does have strong connotations, but when one human kills another, we are pretty much on the top rung of the offences ladder. Personally, I hope the outcome is the right one and only the most thorough investigation will achieve that.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 16:36:57 GMT
Surely senior police officers who approved his arrest must realise that the word "murder" has some pretty strong connotations in society? Yes, but you're crediting those officers with some common sense and we all know how that is in short supply. I agree with you; using the term 'murder' was always going to get the media frothing and it should have been worded differently. All they've done now is put their investigation under even greater scrutiny. If I was the first officer on scene I'd be considering murder and trwating the scene(s) as potential murder scenes and those present as suspects and witnesses to such an offence. I can't think of any decent bobbies who wouldn't. And, doing so, would be absolute common sense. |
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 16:38:58 GMT
The media are frothing because of the circumstances, not because of the word murder. And why shouldn't the investigation be under scrutiny.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 17:16:30 GMT
The farmer a few years ago was investigated for murder as should anyone in any circumstances. The act of investigating should not be taken as a sign of guilt but, sadly many think just that. Investigate properly and when he is found innocent there should be no doubt. Fudging an investigation to find the man innocent as a matter of course would lead to all kinds of crap later.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 5, 2018 18:32:06 GMT
The problem I have with the arrest, is that the bloke is forever going to have to declare the fact he was arrested on suspicion of murder. Going on holiday to somewhere like the USA (rather ironically) will be a major ball ache.
I have no problem with police investigating the death like they would a murder - same as they do in fatal RTCs - but arresting then releasing without charge can still cause huge problems.
The bloody BBC had the cunt’s cousin on the TV stating it was a disgrace the guy got bail as her cousin was a lovely bloke. Yes, a lovely bloke that goes armed with a screwdriver to a burglary and was wanted for a previous burglary. He was a scumbag who deserved it. 😡
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 5, 2018 18:45:01 GMT
The problem I have with the arrest, is that the bloke is forever going to have to declare the fact he was arrested on suspicion of murder. Going on holiday to somewhere like the USA (rather ironically) will be a major ball ache. I have no problem with police investigating the death like they would a murder - same as they do in fatal RTCs - but arresting then releasing without charge can still cause huge problems. The bloody BBC had the cunt’s cousin on the TV stating it was a disgrace the guy got bail as her cousin was a lovely bloke. Yes, a lovely bloke that goes armed with a screwdriver to a burglary and was wanted for a previous burglary. He was a scumbag who deserved it. 😡 I wondered how long it would be before we hear the stories about how nice a bloke he was. There's probably a Just Giving page as well. |
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Post by PG on Apr 5, 2018 21:25:34 GMT
<<<< His uncle Stevie, who lives close to his home in Orpington, said: “We’re in mourning here. We don’t want to talk about what’s been said about Henry. We’ve already had the Old Bill round here. We’re not commenting on anything.”
His cousin, who was not identified, told the BBC she was angry Mr Osborn-Brooks had been bailed. "I don't know what happened in that home. But all I do know is that my cousin is dead today," she said.
"The Henry I know, he was such a loving person, and it's probably something which just went wrong but he shouldn't have died out of it." >>>>
Nothing more needs to be said really, does it? He was clearly just out having a bit of fun when he found himself with a screwdriver in a pensioner's house. Could happen to anyone really......
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 5, 2018 21:28:28 GMT
<<<< His uncle Stevie, who lives close to his home in Orpington, said: “We’re in mourning here. We don’t want to talk about what’s been said about Henry. We’ve already had the Old Bill round here. We’re not commenting on anything.”
His cousin, who was not identified, told the BBC she was angry Mr Osborn-Brooks had been bailed. "I don't know what happened in that home. But all I do know is that my cousin is dead today," she said.
"The Henry I know, he was such a loving person, and it's probably something which just went wrong but he shouldn't have died out of it." >>>>
Nothing more needs to be said really, does it? He was clearly just out having a bit of fun when he found himself with a screwdriver in a pensioner's house. Could happen to anyone really...... He comes from a large extended family who make a living preying on pensioners. Maybe we need a Castle Law like Texas? |
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