|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 15:27:36 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 14, 2018 15:27:36 GMT
Snails, newts, sex-tourism and drunken stag dos. Instead of any meaningful sense of what Brexit means or will achieve.
What the F**K was Boris on?
Anyone think this was a good speech?
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 15:36:17 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 14, 2018 15:36:17 GMT
You missed carrots!
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 15:36:39 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 14, 2018 15:36:39 GMT
Sounds like a cracking weekend. Where do I sign up?
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 16:29:34 GMT
Post by johnc on Feb 14, 2018 16:29:34 GMT
Snails, newts, sex-tourism and drunken stag dos. Instead of any meaningful sense of what Brexit means or will achieve.
What the F**K was Boris on?
Anyone think this was a good speech? No I didn't. He comes across as the eccentric uncle who everyone has a soft spot for but deep down everyone thinks he is a little barking and really shouldn't be left alone with the children.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 16:39:22 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 14, 2018 16:39:22 GMT
I feared I would be accused of gilding the lily...
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 19:46:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Feb 14, 2018 19:46:05 GMT
Being generous he was trying to be positive about the process but that’s really as good as it got. It was light on detail and badly pitched. It seems Boris unaware of just how toxic he is these days and clearly out of his depth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 20:16:56 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 20:16:56 GMT
I think he is reacting to all the ludicrous suggestions from remainers who will not accept the result of the referendum and are pushing for another.The French president suggested that he would like to see the UK change our mind. Mr Bleuch suggests the UK population should be allowed to change our mind and no end of MP's etc.
The first referendum led to those unhappy with the result being told to put up and shut up. Now those people are unhappy with a democratic process and want to change the result to suit them. There is no room for bull now, BREXIT will happen and should be allowed to happen. Anything else is hot air and semantics.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 21:19:08 GMT
Post by Alex on Feb 14, 2018 21:19:08 GMT
The whole Brexit process is becoming farcical and the more it goes on the more I’m convinced it’ll be utterly disastrous (not that it’s ever seemed otherwise) but I really don’t think we can go back on it now without risking the country being totally divided. It’s an utter shit storm that we probably have to ride out and hope things will be alright in the end.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 14, 2018 22:45:42 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 14, 2018 22:45:42 GMT
I think he is reacting to all the ludicrous suggestions from remainers who will not accept the result of the referendum and are pushing for another.The French president suggested that he would like to see the UK change our mind. Mr Bleuch suggests the UK population should be allowed to change our mind and no end of MP's etc. The first referendum led to those unhappy with the result being told to put up and shut up. Now those people are unhappy with a democratic process and want to change the result to suit them. There is no room for bull now, BREXIT will happen and should be allowed to happen. Anything else is hot air and semantics. How would you feel if the result had been 52/48 in favour of Remain? It is no more or no less democratic to want to change Brexit than it is to insist upon it. To assert otherwise is completely illogical. Otherwise you are guilty of adhering to the President Erdogan interpretation of what democracy is (he famously likened it to a train journey where you get off the train once it reaches your chosen station).
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 9:27:02 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 9:27:02 GMT
How would you feel if the result had been 52/48 in favour of Remain? It is no more or no less democratic to want to change Brexit than it is to insist upon it. To assert otherwise is completely illogical. Otherwise you are guilty of adhering to the President Erdogan interpretation of what democracy is (he famously likened it to a train journey where you get off the train once it reaches your chosen station). I'm not sure that's quite the same comparison. The fact is we were told that the result would be delivered and that's what's happening. To remain in the EU would be the equivalent of, had the result been the reverse, of having a vote to remain then for politicians to take us out the EU - you'd rightly find that outrageous. I think the result needs to be observed for the good of democracy. We leave and then have campaigns to then join the EU.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 9:53:09 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 15, 2018 9:53:09 GMT
I wouldn't find it outrageous if all the evidence clearly and empirically pointed to leaving being the best course of action. That's why we have elected politicians and not a direct democracy. I stand by my assertion that the "Brexit must happen because we had a referendum" attitude shares Erdogan's approach to democracy - i.e. it's merely a convenient tool to get to where you want to be, with no opposition brooked.
You have to remember that I don't have an ideological objection to Brexit. I'd be delighted if it works and crucially I would support it if it was logical to do so. My objections are purely practical and based on the evidence available. I simply refuse to "drink the Kool-Aid" for the sake of pandering to what, absent convincing evidence to the contrary (which to drag this conversation back on topic, Boris singularly failed to provide AGAIN), I see as a damaging course of action which seems to largely be based on ideology, misconceptions and prejudice.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 10:04:51 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 10:04:51 GMT
But the argument is Brexit mustn't happen because we'll be poorer - people knew that when they voted as it was reported widely. Maybe the ideology is what matters to people more than wealth.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 10:19:12 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 10:19:12 GMT
(which to drag this conversation back on topic, Boris singularly failed to provide AGAIN) On Boris I hope that the press attention he's getting convinces him that any leadership effort would be a lost cause but even though he ducked out last time I'm sure he'll still try to for PM.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 10:47:00 GMT
Post by johnc on Feb 15, 2018 10:47:00 GMT
But the argument is Brexit mustn't happen because we'll be poorer - people knew that when they voted as it was reported widely. Maybe the ideology is what matters to people more than wealth. I'd disagree with that. People thought (and were told) there would be a massive pot of £350m a week or whatever, which would be available to make our NHS wonderful again and that trade would boom and we would be Great Britain again.
As Racing has said, there has been zero evidence that these assertions were correct and over a year later there has been no evidence that this is even remotely likely - and yet we are told that nothing changes and we are accelerating down the road towards Brexit instead of taking another look at it: it's like being on the runaway bus with a driver who refuses to even contemplate using the brake.
There is a fear of the unknown but I don't think in my lifetime there has ever been such a large "completely unknown" which Politicians appear unwilling to acknowledge or consider - that is their job after all, not dictatorship.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 10:49:56 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 15, 2018 10:49:56 GMT
But the argument is Brexit mustn't happen because we'll be poorer - people knew that when they voted as it was reported widely. Maybe the ideology is what matters to people more than wealth. I do not think they all knew. They were told it, but at the same time they were told loud and clear by the tabloids from which many get their views that it was just "Project Fear" put about by an Establishment determined to continue imposing a much-hated austerity on them. So I suspect sufficient numbers as to tilt the balance chose not to believe the warnings, or thought things couldn't get worse for them personally. Or just wanted to kick Cameron.
I for one, think I am entitled to object to having my future prosperity (and that of my country) heedlessly sacrificed on the altar on someone else's ideology, or worse, their misconceptions.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 10:59:46 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 10:59:46 GMT
it's like being on the runaway bus with a driver who refuses to even contemplate using the brake. We've triggered Article 50 so to use your aviation analogy we're beyond the point of no return, we've got to try to take off. This was a debate to have been had before that point but for whatever reason we didn't so it's too late. The status quo has gone.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:22:19 GMT
Post by Tim on Feb 15, 2018 11:22:19 GMT
(which to drag this conversation back on topic, Boris singularly failed to provide AGAIN) On Boris I hope that the press attention he's getting convinces him that any leadership effort would be a lost cause but even though he ducked out last time I'm sure he'll still try to for PM.
I think Boris will be a typical politician who only reads positives into everything.
I get the impression he sees himself in a Churchillian role, to match the apparent resurgence of interest in that man and WW2, as the saviour of the UK when it is surrounded by 'enemies'.
If he wants to be PM then he's bound to try before the election at which point we're all at the mercy of the views of the 300 or so Tory MPs, not the wider electorate.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:29:41 GMT
Post by johnc on Feb 15, 2018 11:29:41 GMT
We've triggered Article 50 so to use your aviation analogy we're beyond the point of no return, we've got to try to take off. This was a debate to have been had before that point but for whatever reason we didn't so it's too late. The status quo has gone. The reason there was no debate was that (in analogy land) the driver told us all to sit down and shut up.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:30:15 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 15, 2018 11:30:15 GMT
it's like being on the runaway bus with a driver who refuses to even contemplate using the brake. We've triggered Article 50 so to use your aviation analogy we're beyond the point of no return, we've got to try to take off. This was a debate to have been had before that point but for whatever reason we didn't so it's too late. The status quo has gone. In your view. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that we are irretrievably past the point of no return. That the previous status quo is gone or altered does not mean the future must contain Brexit. The world is not black and white and the two things are not intrinsically linked.
The debate should be a clear-eyed and dispassionate one about what is best for Britain. Unfortunately it continues to be one that defies all logic and reason. If the best argument for Brexit at this point is that well we won a vote and it's too late now, then, frankly, the prosecution rests. Unfortunately it seems that the judge and jury have nodded off and the risk is that by the time they wake up, events will have overtaken us for the worse. And being right will be no solace for the resulting mess.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:35:56 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 11:35:56 GMT
The status quo has gone in the sense that we'd loose the rebate and various veto's. The only way to overturn the result would be via another referendum and I think for those reasons alone the leave vote would be higher than it was.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:37:21 GMT
Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 11:37:21 GMT
We've triggered Article 50 so to use your aviation analogy we're beyond the point of no return, we've got to try to take off. This was a debate to have been had before that point but for whatever reason we didn't so it's too late. The status quo has gone. The reason there was no debate was that (in analogy land) the driver told us all to sit down and shut up. Not entirely true. It's as much that we didn't have an effective opposition to challenge the position.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 11:44:59 GMT
Post by Boxer6 on Feb 15, 2018 11:44:59 GMT
On Boris I hope that the press attention he's getting convinces him that any leadership effort would be a lost cause but even though he ducked out last time I'm sure he'll still try to for PM.
I think Boris will be a typical politician who only reads positives into everything.
I get the impression he sees himself in a Churchillian role, to match the apparent resurgence of interest in that man and WW2, as the saviour of the UK when it is surrounded by 'enemies'.
If he wants to be PM then he's bound to try before the election at which point we're all at the mercy of the views of the 300 or so Tory MPs, not the wider electorate.
The thing with that is, WW2 fighting the Axis aside, Winnie was a cunt of the highest order!
Actually .. .. ..
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 12:54:23 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Feb 15, 2018 12:54:23 GMT
The issue with a further Brexit vote is that the public face of the EU is now such that there would likely be a higher percentage vote for leave: no wants to be punished no matter how much they ask for it (Max Mosely aside).
The huge grey mammal with a trunk in the room is about the relationship with the EU after whatever shite is cooked up. It's all very well saying the UK can make its own trade deals with RoW, the US etc. but the EU is a gigantic, wealthy trading block 26 miles offshore with a tunnel leading straight there, as opposed to thousands of miles of air, land and sea travel away. If we want to trade with that neighbour we will have to accede to at least some of their demands in. the same way they will have to accede to some of ours (we are probably the most spendthrift nation of individuals in the present EU). So no matter how much Leavers bleat on about "control of our shores, control of our laws and Froggy and Fritz can stick it up yours" (I think I'll trademark that) we will still be beholden to EU requirements in many areas and that will include, er... our shores, our laws and them telling us to stick it up ours. And does anyone think that other huge trade partners like the US, China, Japan don't have a set of their own stipulations that may not be favourable to the UK?
Basically we were better off being part of something that may have smelled but at least had some substance and size behind it whereas now we are merely flies collecting the shite off three or four different piles of dung.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 13:50:49 GMT
Post by Tim on Feb 15, 2018 13:50:49 GMT
I think Boris will be a typical politician who only reads positives into everything.
I get the impression he sees himself in a Churchillian role, to match the apparent resurgence of interest in that man and WW2, as the saviour of the UK when it is surrounded by 'enemies'.
If he wants to be PM then he's bound to try before the election at which point we're all at the mercy of the views of the 300 or so Tory MPs, not the wider electorate.
The thing with that is, WW2 fighting the Axis aside, Winnie was a cunt of the highest order!
Actually .. .. ..
Exactly. Several commentators have remarked on the Blitz type of spirit being thrown up in some areas at present and have made the point that its misguided and certainly not going to do us any favours with our local future trading partners.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 13:55:40 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 15, 2018 13:55:40 GMT
I have to say my opinion that my remain vote was the right one has been rocked by George Soros' donation to the anti-Brexit campaign. I don't want to be on the same side as that man.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 14:42:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:42:07 GMT
I swear it is getting worse, the more time goes on, the more remain voters bleat about how the vote should be changed et al. It is a done deal and all the harping and bleating is merely aimed at making the leave voters feel bad about it. IF there had been some signs of the eu changing its wasteful ways and showing some intelligence we might still be in. Apparently the Belgian does not want a superstate so, where does the eu standing army come into that?
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 14:47:44 GMT
Post by Tim on Feb 15, 2018 14:47:44 GMT
Don't you think a lot of the complaining is because there is absolutely zero sign of any deal and each side is still making statements that contradict the other?
The only reason SOME OF* the Brexit side are quiet is because they're getting what they want.
*The loud ones from the leave side are those who simply can't wait for 2 years of transition, they demand to leave on 31st March 2019 no matter what!
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 15:56:57 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 15, 2018 15:56:57 GMT
I swear it is getting worse, the more time goes on, the more remain voters bleat about how the vote should be changed et al. It is a done deal and all the harping and bleating is merely aimed at making the leave voters feel bad about it. IF there had been some signs of the eu changing its wasteful ways and showing some intelligence we might still be in. Apparently the Belgian does not want a superstate so, where does the eu standing army come into that? If Brexit turns out to be a disaster for the UK, will you still maintain it was the right decision to vote to leave?
I am least prepared to be proven wrong. Indeed I would be delighted to be proven wrong. It would be in all our best interests for me to be wrong.
I don't get the sense Brexiteers take the same approach. I get the sense that if Brexit doesn't work and it was proven beyond all doubt that this was because the idea was flawed from the get-go, Brexiteers will never accept that Brexit failed because was because it was a bad idea. It will be blamed by them on anything and anyone but that.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 16:05:51 GMT
Post by racingteatray on Feb 15, 2018 16:05:51 GMT
I have to say my opinion that my remain vote was the right one has been rocked by George Soros' donation to the anti-Brexit campaign. I don't want to be on the same side as that man. Do elaborate on why not.
|
|
|
Boris
Feb 15, 2018 17:49:48 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 15, 2018 17:49:48 GMT
I have to say my opinion that my remain vote was the right one has been rocked by George Soros' donation to the anti-Brexit campaign. I don't want to be on the same side as that man. Do elaborate on why not. Very surprised I’d have to given his past track record.
|
|