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Post by scouse on Dec 7, 2017 13:26:34 GMT
To be fair, it has been American policy for at least the last two presidents to call Jerusalem Israel's capital. Trump has actually confirmed it by announcing the movement of the US embassy there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 13:29:12 GMT
I'd suggest that makes it all the more pointless and therefore provocative, though I confess I didn't know that.
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Post by Tim on Dec 7, 2017 13:31:45 GMT
They've apparently signed a waiver every 6 months for the last 50 years or something like that, Trump has decided to stop doing that.
I can only suspect that he's done it partly to take some of the attention away from his domestic situation.
I also hope that the rest of the world don't give in and follow suit.
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Post by PG on Dec 7, 2017 14:21:44 GMT
They've apparently signed a waiver every 6 months for the last 50 years or something like that, Trump has decided to stop doing that. From the DT online this morning - He was not the first to make such a promise before the same audience. “Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided,” said one of the 2008 presidential candidates. No, not John McCain, the Republican runner, but Barack Obama. He followed George W Bush and Bill Clinton in promising to move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
For the issue remains one of the few bipartisan issues in America’s polarised politics. Congress mandates it after all. In 1995 the Senate and the House of Representatives both overwhelmingly passed a law recognising Jerusalem as the capital and ordering the embassy to be moved. It built in a fudge, allowing presidents to delay the move every six months on the grounds of national security.
Which is where we are today. Each of Mr Trump’s predecessor’s have made good use of the waiver, reneging on their campaign promises as advisers warned of the risk of a Middle East conflagration if they pushed ahead.
We should know by now that this president is unimpressed by fudges and grey areas. He calls them “hypocrisy”. It is a large part of why he won the election.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 8, 2017 0:18:12 GMT
Some things to consider:
Trump has plainly stated his opinions of Islamic states and this week the Supreme Court upheld his legislation to ban travel from certain Muslim countries. He’s hardly worried about upsetting some more Muslims. He’s a world leader and he’s made a decision not to pander to a religion he sees as having no benefit to the American way of life - you can’t fault his openness on the issue.
As he made his speech there would have been the rustle of fundraising cheques in the background for his re-election campaign, or as he claims to self fund whatever purpose he wants to see funded.
As a God fearing nation the Christian electorate will have been raised with the understanding that Jerusalem is indeed the capital of Israel. Their president confirming that is a shed load more votes. Remember Trump is a Christian and Jerusalem is a holy place for three major religions; that a very important Christian world leader is able to accept that the state of Israel, a Jewish state, can have its capital city as Jerusalem says more about this issue than any number of Flag burners in the streets.
Having been advised of the unrest it would cause in the Muslim community Trump probably shrugged and said: “They can prove themselves to be reasonable people in the eyes of the world, or they can do otherwise.”
Finally did anyone on the world stage imagine that the USA would not side with Israel? Netanyahu’s speech immediately after was the most gracious I’ve heard from a world leader that’s just been handed a new generation of issues in one sentence but it shows understanding that on the world stage some things are worth some trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 8:50:46 GMT
PG, the hypocrisy issue is interesting - a bit like claiming to be a man for the people but doing all you can to avoid paying any tax!
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Post by johnc on Dec 8, 2017 9:00:00 GMT
Some things to consider: Having been advised of the unrest it would cause in the Muslim community Trump probably shrugged and said: “They can prove themselves to be reasonable people in the eyes of the world, or they can do otherwise.” I completely agree with that. Perhaps I am just getting tired of all the political fighting and posturing which has been going on for years now with the Scottish Referendum, Brexit, snap General Elections etc and now the Donald is mixing things up on a world stage. It's that kind of irritating background noise you just want to stop so that you can get on with your life.
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Post by Tim on Dec 8, 2017 9:29:32 GMT
There's a good article on the BBC website about what Trump is actually achieving and it's all about domestic politics. This announcement is another major part of that - the right wing Evangelical Christians will be coming in their pants so he's guaranteed their votes in the future and, as is the case of religious types across the whole world, they won't give a shit about any bloodshed
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 13:30:56 GMT
As long as the bloodshed is not within the USA borders they will be fine with it. Especially if no US service people die.
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 9:55:19 GMT
Turned the radio on this morning midway through an interview with one of our American cousins. Apparently a lot of those delightful people across there, at least among those of an evangelical leaning, are quite convinced that the US recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel will inevitably lead to the second coming of Christ Not only does that smack of incredible self-importance (surely somewhat contradictory to general christian feeling) but it's utter lunacy of the highest order.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 20, 2017 10:00:58 GMT
You could argue that belief in the whole bible / religion / higher being thing takes a certain state of mind in the first place. These ones are just one place removed from that particular false reality.
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 10:13:57 GMT
I agree. When the measure was proposed a couple of weeks ago I read up on a it a bit more and the thought of all those non-passport-holding - not all of them I realise - right wing evangelicals wanting this change (the presumption is that they voted for Trump as this was one of his key policies) made me quite annoyed, especially when the inevitable violence occurred.
I really hope they're happy that somewhere they're never going to visit to worship an imaginary bearded man has seen such scenes.
I'd really love to ask some of them why they think their country is so important in this, especially since it didn't exist in their format at the time when the bearded man was allegedly alive. As most of them are white, and thus descended from immigrants, don't they think that god bless America should be spread across the lands of their forefathers?
I know they're borderline insane and none of this makes any sense anyway!
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Post by michael on Dec 20, 2017 10:37:45 GMT
I know they're borderline insane and none of this makes any sense anyway! And yet you've not highlighted some of the more insane views! Are you familiar with the concept of The Rapture?
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 11:06:13 GMT
I know they're borderline insane and none of this makes any sense anyway! And yet you've not highlighted some of the more insane views! Are you familiar with the concept of The Rapture? Yes. That's insanity of a spectacular level.
I think that I have highlighted a couple of insane views. The idea that one country saying to another that they think the capital city should be somewhere else will trigger the reappearance of an imaginary man is surely not the view of someone in the best of mental health? I mean, why not recognise Middlesborough as the UK capital and see if that triggers it too? The idea that a recently invented country, mainly stocked with immigrants is the one that the imaginary man cares about also seems, er, not right!
All the while the people holding those views continue to have little respect for anyone who is different from them but think they're due some reward for 'caring'. Madness
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Post by michael on Dec 20, 2017 11:14:57 GMT
Even the most shelled areas of the middle east don't deserve a comparison with Middlesbrough! The recognition of Jerusalem by Trump is ridiculously blown out of proportion given every president in my living memory has done the same. It's only really making the headlines because everything Trump does piles them on the outrage express and he got around to signing a document that's been fudged for decades.
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 11:29:57 GMT
I know that (about Jerusalem, I think you're being slightly unfair to Middlesbrough) but it's really a minor geographic issue and they should've dropped it a long time ago because they all knew (everybody knew) that it would cause violence.
It's just that Trump has chosen not to give a shit about people in a far away country and happily signed something that he knew would lead to deaths, surprisingly few actually IMO.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 20, 2017 13:28:15 GMT
It's just that Trump has chosen not to give a shit about people in a far away country I believe that was a key tenet of his campaign and his enduring popularity amongst his followers. It's Americans that vote for the POTUS, not the media or Europeans.
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 14:02:35 GMT
It's just that Trump has chosen not to give a shit about people in a far away country I believe that was a key tenet of his campaign and his enduring popularity amongst his followers. It's Americans that vote for the POTUS, not the media or Europeans.
Quite but then US domestic politics have, in this case, brought death, destruction and violence to a far away country. If Trump and his followers are so US focused they should keep out of world affairs. I'm sure many of those who voted for him would quite happily pull up the drawbridge and shut everyone else out although they'd then have to stop interfering in the manner they have for the past 70 odd years.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 20, 2017 14:31:04 GMT
I think that the manner of US interference since the end of WW2 has been to ensure that they don't need to ramp up suddenly to join a global war started by Europeans. I'll admit it doesn't look like that now but that was the basis for them getting more involved worldwide than they were previously.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 20, 2017 15:19:42 GMT
I think that the manner of US interference since the end of WW2 has been to ensure that they don't need to ramp up suddenly to join a global war started by Europeans. I'll admit it doesn't look like that now but that was the basis for them getting more involved worldwide than they were previously. Everything the US had done since WW2 has been about protecting and promoting their economic dominance and making sure any challengers to this were put in their place. Once we were bled dry and bankrupt they made sure they stepped into the hole left by the retreating British Empire, held off the Communists, and reaped the rewards.
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Post by Tim on Dec 20, 2017 16:54:41 GMT
Now the US is sort of threatening everyone who doesn't agree with them on this matter Courtesy of the BBC website. "The US says it "will be taking names" during a UN General Assembly vote on a resolution criticising its recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
Permanent representative Nikki Haley warned member states that President Donald Trump had asked her to report on "who voted against us" on Thursday."
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 20, 2017 17:04:52 GMT
Not sure Europe before and after the spending under the Marshall Plan would disagree with that but the manner in which Germany managed the Marshall plan funds for internal restructuring and rebuilding whilst repaying the Marshall loans from the internal revenue take means that the plan has significantly backfired as far as they're concerned - the Marshall funds were paid off in the early '70s whilst the loan fund from the Marshall Plan is still being used today by the German state giving loans to commercial enterprise that is then paid back and reloaned out - an entirely separate fund to the tax man's revenue.
The UK's main problems have been internal country management allied to the costs associated with handing over Empire - our Post-War Labour Government was seen as nothing less than a Communist threat and the fact that the electorate could vote out a right-wing government who's leader had seen them through the war was seen as an indication of the lack of trust Uncle Sam could place in Britannia. That we had maintained a clear class system in our armed forces right in front of the Americans didn't help either.
American dominance is long past in most fields outside of the military and obesity with China making sure they get their share of the pie and the middle east weaning itself off of its reliance on oil reserves whilst the US (well, 49 states as CA is an oddball) remains resolutely carbon burning.
In fairness I did say it doesn't look like USA want to help in the current state but the main concern of the Marshall Plan was to promote European rebuilding and stability to avoid yet another big and expensive war. Luckily for the US Military budget Uncle Joe decided that he wanted to protect his borders from rampant westernisation, probably so he could carry on murdering his own citizens in peace and quiet whilst the USA was spending money on NATO to defend against what was, as became apparent in the late '80s and early '90s , an utterly destitute USSR.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 12:49:48 GMT
I am absolutely pissed off with all the anti Trump bullshit shoved down my throat. He is, at least, acting on his word on the policies he was elected for. Others are full of empty words.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 29, 2017 22:06:30 GMT
I am absolutely pissed off with all the anti Trump bullshit shoved down my throat. He is, at least, acting on his word on the policies he was elected for. Others are full of empty words. I agree: Big Blue Avatar Dec 20, 2017 14:28:15 GMT 1 Big Blue said: I believe that was a key tenet of his campaign and his enduring popularity amongst his followers. It's Americans that vote for the POTUS, not the media or Europeans.
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Post by Tim on Jan 3, 2018 11:20:36 GMT
Fine but his policies are isolationist except he's still sticking his country's nose into everyone elses business.
Anyway he's back to his best again.
"My button's bigger than your button" - from a 70 year old, successful (allegedly), multi-billionaire businessman. Pathetic!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 15:35:38 GMT
It seems that the ping pongs are so paranoid that they spend all their time winding each other up, sadly potus is joining in when it would be better to ignore them.
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Post by Tim on Jan 3, 2018 16:01:00 GMT
If he wasn't an immature bully he would be ignoring them.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 3, 2018 16:21:13 GMT
If he wasn't an immature bully he would be ignoring them. Didn't work for Obama though did it? The North Koreans laughed in his face. Looks like Trump's got them talking again: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-42549161
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 4, 2018 12:55:39 GMT
If he wasn't an immature bully he would be ignoring them. Didn't work for Obama though did it? The North Koreans laughed in his face. Looks like Trump's got them talking again: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-42549161Trump? Or the adults in his administration?
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Post by Tim on Jan 4, 2018 13:46:56 GMT
Trump? Or the adults in his administration?
Exactly.
I'm led to understand that Trump has claimed credit for all sorts of things recently, including the fact that there were no airliner crashes in the whole of 2017. Not quite sure how he thinks he's influenced that exactly, especially as some of his policies have presumably led to extra trips being required?
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