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Post by Big Blue on Jul 3, 2017 13:03:48 GMT
Right, let's get the ball rolling in here.
I see we had a thread whereby we debated the positive attributes of Ed Sheeran in a fairly brusque manner. So let's do the same for Corbyn.
He wants a hard Brexit by all accounts and certainly did nothing to campaign for EU continuity or otherwise last summer. His current stance is because he knows from the polls last summer that lots of his core voters, i.e. the working classes, were largely in favour of all anti-EU issues from the votes UKIP gained in Labour-led constituencies. So he's prepared to dislike foreigners for votes. Like the current POTUS.
He also likes to extoll populist policies like the POTUS. OK the Corbyn things are issues like throwing money at the NHS with little talk of reform, paying high minimum wages to anyone that turns up to work and renationalising everything that moves but the premise of populism is similar enough for an online car forum.
It's hard to imagine the workability of the policies as they stand, again like the POTUS. If people are to get all this extra money, the NHS all the additional funds and the nation is to buy the utilities and the transport businesses back at their current share values who's paying for it?
He loves to stand on a popular platform and address those in front of him, even though that platform is not the most appropriate place to be standing. Guess who also does that.... that's right, the POTUS. What the fuck was that Glastonbury shite about? Trump's tweets are batter fare.
He likes to get rid of anyone in office that disagrees with him very fast - now who else do we know that does that? I'm hoping the POTUS' PR team don't notice or someone will be having their arse sued off!
So all this begs the question: what do people see in him? He's no different to the much derided and hated POTUS, who to be fair is a non-political person trying to remind the voters (and Capitol Hill) what the USA is all about. It's just that being a vile leftie is more "right-on" than being a vile right-winger I guess.
And....... GO!
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Post by Tim on Jul 3, 2017 13:19:26 GMT
Actually reading the first few points reminded me more of Boris Johnson than Trump, especially now Johnson has jumped on the popular 1% pay rise bandwagon (I wonder how HE voted when it got defeated last week?) I'm definitely not a fan of Corbyn and, as you say, a lot of his thinking is questionable. I assume that once a Brexit of any consistency has been carried out all those working class voters(who will by then undoubtedly be quite a lot worse off) will view him in a completely different light, after all it will likely turn out that his desire for a hard Brexit hasn't improved their lot one iota. Of course, if the Sun, Mail, etc decide to support him by that time then those working class voters will simply blame the Tories as they're told to do
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Post by johnc on Jul 3, 2017 14:42:39 GMT
I think Corbyn is a dangerous ideologist who will say whatever needs to be said to get what he wants - just look at his almost desperate calls for Labour to be allowed to form a Government after the GE even though it was numerically impossible.
Strangely, I had a meeting with a client last week and he took our conversation to politics and the fact that he has been a bit of a radical left winger for all his life. He said that Corbyn was right and the rich should pay for all the spending that's required (he missed the point that he might be one of them). When I told him that my opinion was that significant tax rises for the rich could well lead to them leaving the country or re-arranging their affairs to ensure that a lot of their money was not taxed, his view was that such arrangements should be made illegal. I said that you couldn't stop people leaving the country and his view was "why not". I told him that I thought that would make the UK and extremely unattractive place to do business or to stay but he just said he didn't believe that would happen.
In his more radical years this individual rubbed shoulders on more than a few occasions with Corbyn and his like minded friends.
So, if that is anything like the real thinking in Corbyn's Labour party, I want nothing to do with it and I consider it to be a dangerous movement.
However there is no doubt that there are aspects of the social policy in the UK which need changed or improved. I would like to see University fees reduced to a more realistic level since in my view, £27K of debt from fees for a 3 year course and probably a similar amount from accommodation and living expenses is too big a burden to start work and life with. The NHS needs to be improved but I don't believe that the answer is just to throw more money at it. It may need more money but there must also be more effective management and utilisation of resources. It might even be considered to be heretical to say it but I would have no problem paying £5 or £10 every time I needed to see a doctor - I have to pay much more than that to see a dentist so I think it is as much an attitude of mind as anything else.
Back on to the subject, I think Corbyn has the ability to return the UK to the 70's, to create industrial unrest and to bankrupt us in a way that would make Greece look like a problem to be solved with loose change. He has little idea about how to make money but no problem in spending it (sounds like my daughter) and the lies he spun to the young voters just prove that he will stoop to whatever level he needs to get his end game through.
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Post by Tim on Jul 3, 2017 15:02:36 GMT
.......who will say whatever needs to be said to get what he wants .......
That's BoJo again isn't it?
They're all the same, whatever party they represent.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 3, 2017 15:15:36 GMT
However there is no doubt that there are aspects of the social policy in the UK which need changed or improved. I would like to see University fees reduced to a more realistic level since in my view, £27K of debt from fees for a 3 year course and probably a similar amount from accommodation and living expenses is too big a burden to start work and life with. The NHS needs to be improved but I don't believe that the answer is just to throw more money at it. It may need more money but there must also be more effective management and utilisation of resources. It might even be considered to be heretical to say it but I would have no problem paying £5 or £10 every time I needed to see a doctor - I have to pay much more than that to see a dentist so I think it is as much an attitude of mind as anything else.
I'm afraid I have a much more radical outlook regarding University and fees: abolish fees, pay grants but only have enough places for 5% of the school leavers, those being the very cleverest / artiest. However that would then bring in another problem: mass unemployment of 18-22 year olds, who are currently paying for the privilege to stay off the unemployment figures.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 3, 2017 15:34:42 GMT
There lies the problem. Even back in the 90's I was pushed down the university route by both parents and school as that was what one was expected to do even for an average student like myself. Why kids want to burden themselves with 30k plus of debt to study some meaningless degree that improves their changes of great career prospects by 0% is beyond me. Companies should be incentivised to go into schools and pick those decent students and give on the job training whilst enjoying lower taxes as incentive.
Back to Corbyn, I think the guys barking and we fear panicking as a society and throwing higher taxes and increased spending to keep those JC supports quite. Now having a referendum got rid of UKIP and kept the sceptics happy in the conservative party but as what cost and the same goes for the left?
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Post by Tim on Jul 3, 2017 15:49:22 GMT
What sort of % do other countries send to uni? Are we still aiming for 50% or has that faded?
Ed, I think your statement is close but not quite, I don't think the EU referendum has done anything to silence the sceptics in the Tory party. I get the impression they want to burn our bridges and then blow them up for good measure. I also think that's what a hard Brexit means so in my mind applies to Labour under Corbyn too.
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Post by michael on Jul 3, 2017 16:54:38 GMT
Universities without exception chose to charge the maximum they were allowed for their courses. At the same time they have undergone massive expansion and pay some enormous salaries for some dubious roles. I worked at a University and the finances are quite incredible. If universities wanted to lower the cost of education they might want to first look closer to home to see how they might save some money. Another component of debt is rent, the industry around student accommodation is huge and they sell high on luxury which is paid for by availability of debt. It's wrong to expect the tax payer to fund this. My neighbours daughter goes to university to study community drama. She will never earn an income to warrant the debt but it seems university is a right of passage and an experience these days. It shouldn't be and it needs to change. I don't think fees should go but I do think companies should be given tax incentives to provide bursaries and promote competition amongst students. I think it would also be worth looking at condensed courses, 2 years rather than four, it wouldn't work for all courses but would reduce the living expenses substantially and if you're prepared to work hard you'd get on the career ladder a bit earlier.
On Corbyn, he's a dangerous and nasty piece of work who has no business being in such high office. I'd hope the more decent members of the Labour party would resign the whip rather than see him in office.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 17:45:31 GMT
Apart from the potential for personality problems, Corbyn does seem to be dragging the belaboured party into a new socialist era. No idea why the party continues with him except that he is targeting those who otherwise would have no voice. Generations of families without employment etc. My last exposure to the university system was a very long time ago and I hope there has been improvement but from what I hear it has not. |During a diploma course run by the university of Surrey and they decided they did not need to include anatomy and physiology for a diploma that wes directly patient related. My impression of the university system seems to be oriented to selling books for the faculty and NOT education. I have severe reservations that our universities are fit for purpose.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 3, 2017 17:49:13 GMT
I think Corbyn is a dangerous ideologist who will say whatever needs to be said to get what he wants - just look at his almost desperate calls for Labour to be allowed to form a Government after the GE even though it was numerically impossible.
Strangely, I had a meeting with a client last week and he took our conversation to politics and the fact that he has been a bit of a radical left winger for all his life. He said that Corbyn was right and the rich should pay for all the spending that's required (he missed the point that he might be one of them). When I told him that my opinion was that significant tax rises for the rich could well lead to them leaving the country or re-arranging their affairs to ensure that a lot of their money was not taxed, his view was that such arrangements should be made illegal. I said that you couldn't stop people leaving the country and his view was "why not". I told him that I thought that would make the UK and extremely unattractive place to do business or to stay but he just said he didn't believe that would happen.
In his more radical years this individual rubbed shoulders on more than a few occasions with Corbyn and his like minded friends.
So, if that is anything like the real thinking in Corbyn's Labour party, I want nothing to do with it and I consider it to be a dangerous movement.
However there is no doubt that there are aspects of the social policy in the UK which need changed or improved. I would like to see University fees reduced to a more realistic level since in my view, £27K of debt from fees for a 3 year course and probably a similar amount from accommodation and living expenses is too big a burden to start work and life with. The NHS needs to be improved but I don't believe that the answer is just to throw more money at it. It may need more money but there must also be more effective management and utilisation of resources. It might even be considered to be heretical to say it but I would have no problem paying £5 or £10 every time I needed to see a doctor - I have to pay much more than that to see a dentist so I think it is as much an attitude of mind as anything else.
Back on to the subject, I think Corbyn has the ability to return the UK to the 70's, to create industrial unrest and to bankrupt us in a way that would make Greece look like a problem to be solved with loose change. He has little idea about how to make money but no problem in spending it (sounds like my daughter) and the lies he spun to the young voters just prove that he will stoop to whatever level he needs to get his end game through. My views are similar to John's.
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Post by Alex on Jul 3, 2017 20:11:53 GMT
They're all the same, whatever party they represent.
Indeed - whether you feel compelled to deep-throat, swallow and say thank you or run to the loo spitting it out whilst crying uncontrollably depends entirely on where your predetermined views sit. He and his politics have no appeal to me, but then neither does the alternative. This seems to be a big part of the political problem both here and across the pond. Would Trump have defeated Barack Obama or George W Bush in a presidential race, arguably not. But the alternative this time was Hilary Clinton and she just didn't resonate with the populist vote. In many ways I think Jeremy Corbyn is following a similar tact in spouting out popular line and making heady promises that appeal to the masses or target the 'downtrodden' younger generations that just don't trust the Tories to look after anyone but themselves. I can very much see him getting into power if he's still Labour leader in 5 years time when the effects and realities of Brexit start to bite.
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Post by michael on Jul 3, 2017 21:46:53 GMT
Trump had a good chance of beating Obama. The hype around him is not shared in much of the US.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 3, 2017 23:27:45 GMT
Trump had a good chance of beating Obama. The hype around him is not shared in much of the US. Yep. There's more rednecks than liberals that vote but more liberals than rednecks in the media.
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Post by scouse on Jul 4, 2017 9:05:38 GMT
The behaviour of the US 'liberal' press since Trump got elected has been nothing short of shocking - as bad as McDonnell & Corbyn over here over the election that they 'won'. Corbyn's appeal to the youth vote is just a shocking indictment as to how left-wing our education system has become and is, if anything, evidence that the voting age should be raised up to 21, rather than dropped to 16. As to University, what happened to it being for the best and brightest? The numbers of kids going should be an irrelevance and the type of courses (and some universities) on offer need to culled massively. Allowing them to charge up to £9k a year and not thinking that the first thing any uni was going to do was raise the fee to £9k was fucking dumb. £27k a year for a STEM subject at Oxford, Cambridge or a Russell uni I could understand, but £27k for a Community Drama degree from a former polytechnic is just stupid. I agree with Michael that most uni courses should be cut to two years with the resultant drop in fees and expenses.
Corbyn himself is a lying, treacherous piece of shit who should be hung.
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Post by michael on Jul 4, 2017 9:34:51 GMT
During the election campaign there was a big push on social media by campaigners to encourage Labour votes using the student debt as an issue. One of the angles was talk to your grandparents, say to them if you want to give me £50k vote Labour so I can go to university without debt. This is the same movement that chastises large business for greed. I would argue that if you give, largely middle class youths £50k you should give the same amount to those who don't go. There is no question about what that money is spent on, what the outcomes will be it is simply a right and to question the left on anything is to be rebuked with spurious moral position. Just look at how the 'rape clause' has been weaponised.
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Post by scouse on Jul 4, 2017 9:57:02 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 4, 2017 10:04:17 GMT
to question the left on anything is to be rebuked with spurious moral position. This, above all else, is what I hate about the leftists I associate with. None of them have had any less opportunity than I provided by the home owning, working, refuse-assistance parents and grandparents we all had. My most tory friend is a Yorkshireman from a shite Sheffield estate who joined the RAF as a teenager and is now typically middle-England with a house, flash holidays, runs a tech business etc. He has no time for anyone that whinges about "what Thatcher did to us" as he was in the same boat and got the fuck on with life.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 4, 2017 10:22:38 GMT
I don't have any great dislike for Corbyn - he believes has the best interests for a large part of the population at heart and he says the things they want to hear. He is also the only politician at the moment that is offering any kind of hope - and end to years of austerity, a future of higher wages for all, better housing and saving the NHS.
Where I think he falls down is that he is politically and economically naive in as much he is unable to understand how one fiscal policy can impact another and that we don't live in an economic bubble and have to operate in a global market. The Tories seem to be determined to shoot themselves in both feet and May has steadily declined from the day she was appointed Tory leader and made that speech outside No.10 to someone who seems to be hunkered down inside now with no real plan for going forward.
I'm very much a centrist and was reasonably happy with the Coalition (never thought I'd say that) and I'd take Dave and Cleggy back over what we have at the moment.
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Post by Alex on Jul 4, 2017 10:42:05 GMT
Corbyn himself is a lying, treacherous piece of shit who should be hung. Careful you don't get splinters up yer bum whilst sitting on that fence Scouse!
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Post by michael on Jul 4, 2017 10:49:45 GMT
I think we need to be careful about loosing members, Scouse strikes me as a flight risk.*
*it's a joke.
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Post by Tim on Jul 4, 2017 10:59:43 GMT
I'm very much a centrist and was reasonably happy with the Coalition (never thought I'd say that) and I'd take Dave and Cleggy back over what we have at the moment.
I'd agree with that. The hope that we had a year ago has evaporated very quickly and it appears to me that the referendum that was supposed to sort the Tory party out has just made things worse for them and had a knock on to the country as they try not to squabble too publicly.
I also have the strong impression that Westminster is full of people* who aren't really very competent at the task they're meant to be doing, i.e. running the country.
*I accept some are there for the good of the people they represent but, maybe it's just me getting older and more cynical, they seem to be a smaller % than ever before.
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Post by Alex on Jul 4, 2017 12:17:18 GMT
I'm very much a centrist and was reasonably happy with the Coalition (never thought I'd say that) and I'd take Dave and Cleggy back over what we have at the moment.
I'd agree with that. The hope that we had a year ago has evaporated very quickly and it appears to me that the referendum that was supposed to sort the Tory party out has just made things worse for them and had a knock on to the country as they try not to squabble too publicly.
I also have the strong impression that Westminster is full of people* who aren't really very competent at the task they're meant to be doing, i.e. running the country.
*I accept some are there for the good of the people they represent but, maybe it's just me getting older and more cynical, they seem to be a smaller % than ever before.
Think I'd agree too. In many ways I feel sorry for Nick Clegg. He did the right thing at the time in taking the Lib Dems into coalition with the Tories but it's backfired spectacularly on the party with their representation in Parliament being decimated in 2015. Easy to criticise him but I think if he hadn't he'd have gone down in history as the leader who blew their one and only chance of being in power. I found him quite a likeable and honest person though, especially on his weekly slot on LBC. I felt the Tories hung him out to dry on the tuition fees issue. It's quite clear he had no choice but to let them raise them to £9k but the public, and indeed many of his voters, viewed it as his doing. A smarter politician might well have not made the big public apology for it that he did, but I think that was his honest nature coming through and it really is a shame there are not more of his ilk in positions of political power.
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Post by PG on Jul 4, 2017 16:45:10 GMT
"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." Winston Churchill
Like everyone who supports Corbyn. They have either failed to learn, forgotten or don't care about economic and political history. That the 1970's saw the UK almost bankrupted and bailed out by the IMF. Yes, discuss sensible taxes, social policies etc. But socialism will destroy the society they all claim to want. Corbyn is dangerous.
On universities, I wish we could go back to less people going, doing proper degrees and having a lot less to pay. Then everyone else also getting a free education at a technical college. Far more sue to society and to the people going.
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Post by Alex on Jul 4, 2017 20:23:27 GMT
The problem with university fees is the cap itself making all courses a flat fee. This included my wife's PGCE which incurred the full £9000 fee despite only a third of the course being at uni and the rest involving working as a teacher in a school for free. Yet a student enjoying a years worth of a maths degree at Cambridge paid the same fee. if you set a cap all providers put their cost up to meet it and the value is lost. A top independent school will charge £30k Plus for a years fees so why is a years tuition at Oxford or Cambridge on £9k? It makes no sense and is artificially inflating the cost of vocational degrees for important but, ultimately, low paid jobs such as nursing and teaching.
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Post by johnc on Jul 5, 2017 7:32:29 GMT
Universities have become businesses with a small department and several professors who spend a lot of their time bringing in foreign students so that they have the fee income to maintain their position at worst and improve and grow it if at all possible.
Because of the size of some of the Universities and the desire to keep growing, they will look for any way to maximise income: this has almost become more important that anything else. As has already been mentioned, the best solution would be to restrict the numbers who can enter University based on ability. Unfortunately we now have policies in place that mean you have a much better chance of getting in to a popular course if you are an average student living in an under privileged area than you do if you are a straight A student from a private school or one in an affluent area. There is a valid argument that the average student from the poor area may be just as intelligent as the straight A student from a better background but we have a version of social engineering creeping in to the system which is slightly unpalatable to me.
I don't think it is a positive thing that a large number in this country consider manual jobs to be beneath them and they don't want to do them anymore. I would like to see Universities reduced in size, some converted back into technical colleges and a better balance achieved in society. It doesn't help society when you have footballers paid more in a week than someone like a doctor would get paid in a year - it creates a bigger rich v poor divide and with all the media now, it is very visible in a way it wasn't 50 years ago. A narrowing of the gap between rich and poor is a laudable vision but it needs to be done by pulling those at the bottom up rather than hitting those at the top although there could probably be some gentle massaging of the wealth downwards if it is done in the right way. The carrot is always a longer lasting tool than the stick.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 5, 2017 7:54:32 GMT
You could cut university costs by a third if people did their degrees over 2 years instead of 3. Half these course barely have 10 hours of teaching a week.
Then again 10 hours a week is really part-time, giving students plenty of free time to work and earn their way through uni and not run up crippling debt.
Then again, leaving uni with £50k of student debt really isn't crippling at the rate you have to pay it back. Most people pay more per month for their mobile phone contract.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 8:12:28 GMT
Then again, leaving uni with £50k of student debt really isn't crippling at the rate you have to pay it back. Most people pay more per month for their mobile phone contract. It's even better than that, you repay 9% of everything earned above £21k. Below that threshold you don't pay and after 30 years the dept is wiped. The issue has been weaponised and moralised by the left when if you look at the reality it's fair.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 9:01:10 GMT
I've not seen any evidence for John's comment about clever students from wealthy backgrounds having less opportunity than less able students from poorer backgrounds - I'd be genuinely interested to know where this is from. Then again, leaving uni with £50k of student debt really isn't crippling at the rate you have to pay it back. Most people pay more per month for their mobile phone contract. There was a session on R4 this morning about student fees, I missed the beginning though so wasn't sure who was speaking. The interest rate is quite high, something like 4.7% and it's going up to 6.1% later this year. I've just done an on-line calculator to get a sense of the cost and it's quite eye watering; Assuming a starting salary of £25k on a £40k loan (fees and annual maintenance loan) and what seems to be an allowance for pay increases its £25pcm initially but by year 5 £150pcm increasing to £280 by 25 years when it's paid off, the total repayment being £56k As an interest rate it's probably not that bad but it's based on a huge initial debt. For what it's worth I went to Uni to do a more vocational course to support my career choice and it no doubt helped, especially as 'contact' time was 25-30 hours a week for most of the time I was there; a generation before you would get a junior trainee post in a practice/ organisation to support your career development but they simply didn't exist in the mid 90's; I'd have been more than happy doing that and slowly we are seeing a return to those options where employers (industries) invest in the future. My own view is combined with industry/ employers supporting 'careers' having a smaller university system that supports more academic education for the brightest FoC irrespective of background - how you get there when every town has a Uni that is basically a business is beyond me. Having said that, I struggle with the value of somebody being spat out of Oxbridge with a first in Modern Classics only to end up working for one of the big 4 as a 'consultant' which is invariably what seems to happen.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 9:27:13 GMT
If argument is that figure, £40k, £50k, whatever it may be is the debt of being a graduate and that should be picked up by the tax payer then I'd ask what is being paid for. £9k a year to do community drama, I would argue, is not in the national interest. Another component of debt is accommodation and I'd question why the tax payer should be paying for en-suite rooms. Quite often we hear that a generation that had 'free eduction' is pulling up the ladder but their accommodation was, by many accounts, squalid. Some pressure has to come on students to lower their expense in the first place and pressure must also be placed on universities to reduce their costs. As organisations they've become enormously inflated (in every sense of the word) and frankly unsustainable. They need to be allowed to fail. I don't know what will change things but I like the idea of someone launching a PPI type lawsuit to claim they were mis-sold their course.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 5, 2017 9:28:17 GMT
Perhaps it's significant that Germany has a comparatively low level of graduates (circa 27% of the population, I believe) but it doesn't seem to have weakened their economic competitiveness. But then again they know the value of a trade.
A friend of mine has two sons - one was quite academic, did a business degree, came out with £47k of debt and has started in a junior role with a team of financial advisers (I know, I know, we have warned him).
His younger brother was quite clever but could never seem to knuckle down and revise for exams so didn't get the A level grades he needed. He got an apprenticeship with Amazon and after a few years working in their warehouses maintaining equipment he's just been sent to Germany to do a course in robotics and is earning way more than his older brother - and no debt.
We do a similar thing where I work - the young ones do their welding and fabrication apprenticeships, work on the tools for a year or so and then we pick the brightest and train them as welding technicians, with regular courses at the TWI in Cambridge. They then specialize in metallurgy, NDT or welding etc. It doesn't cost them anything and we get the people we want to work in those roles.
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