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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 16:01:57 GMT
Then that is my poor choice of words which is sometimes a fault of mine. I am all in favour of realistic dialogue with the EU, even the numpties trying to butt rape us for their own policies butt, not up for seeing us bankrole the EU idiocy and wasted money is the same no matter how many ways you try to spend it. A small amount which would be the cost of two years that we will have taken to negotiate our exit over. I do not see time taken to give negotiation a chance as wasted even if it goes over the two years either, do it once and get it right rather than rush things and pay for everything twice over. The rhetoric from certain EU figures is pure scare mongering to entice us to rush into doing things their way which is not the sort of thing to make us bend over is it? Time for wise heads to make sure things go well and the butt rape brigade in the EU to get their tube of caffeine inserted.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 16:04:02 GMT
Pardon me if I have been a bit over the top, listening to Deep Purple and the ilk, odd effect it has.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 4, 2017 21:28:52 GMT
I don't think we would, I think there would be a landslide for leave as we've triggered article 50 the status quo as was is gone. So the rebate and various opt-outs are gone. Much easier to sell Brexit now than before the referendum. Much easier to sell Brexit with some of the reported statements and behaviours coming from Barnier and others. Whilst industry in Germany is desperate to see trade negotiations and deals the EU centralists are concentrating on how much of a financial lesson they can teach the UK for leaving their club, proving a lot of the points made over the past 40-odd years that all the EU are interested in is the UK financial contribution to their un-audited coffers. Brussels is anxious to make its model look like a success, witnessed by the inordinate efforts to keep Greece in the EU despite it being clear that they have not met any of the criteria required of an applicant. That's like me not paying my annual subscription and not clearing my monthly account at the RAC yet still playing squash, having dinners and attending events: it just shouldn't happen. Because of this and the British expectation of equilibrium I think a lot of Leave voters expected the UK to pay 2 years of existing funds during Article 50 run-down and then just stop at that. This so-called "divorce" bill is nothing short of an unlicensed penalty and despite me being a Remainer leaves me wanting to call an airstrike on the European Parliament this month. The EU had absolutely NO IDEA what they would do if a major (or minor) state left the club and are simply making it up as they examine their books and see how fucked their internal finances will be. The individual states (except France - who's lack of labour reforms in the past 3 decades is what really makes the EU such a disaster) want the UK's trading position to be clarified asap (and no wonder based on the balance of trade diagram above) and bollocks to the fine, which the EU states know none will see any of individually. There's a lot of truth in this. As a somewhat reluctant remainer (much like all my friends I'd been brought up in the EU and just assumed that it'd be for the best of see stayed in- I'm pretty much certain that we all voted Remain) the attitude of the EU since the Brexit vote has somewhat removed the scales from my eyes. If the vote was run again I, and I reckon probably 50% of my friends,would also vote out now. I also don't subscribe to this intellectual snobbery that says the intelligent voted Remain and 18 million idiots voted out.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 4, 2017 22:29:16 GMT
It's nothing to do with intelligence but it has an awful lot to do with ignorance. More specifically ignorance of one's own ignorance, combined with an absolute unwillingness to question one's own beliefs or where they come from.
As for all this complaining about how nasty Europe is being. I mean really, what on earth did people expect? Flowers and an invitation to tea? I find it quite extraordinary. I'm not excusing anything Barnier et al do. But I am not surprised by it. It was predictable. It's like complaining that the lion that everyone warned you not to let out of the cage is now threatening to eat your children unless you sacrifice your cattle to it.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 5, 2017 5:44:33 GMT
I wasn't complaining, merely pointing out that to the non-politicised onlooker that the EU behaviour is currently entirely justifying Brexit as they are coming across as money-grasping shitehawks looking to bully the UK as it strives for a form of independence. It's their equivalent of the Russians sending tanks into Prague in 1968.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 5, 2017 8:37:55 GMT
It's nothing to do with intelligence but it has an awful lot to do with ignorance. More specifically ignorance of one's own ignorance You're saying the same thing but with more words and proving my point entirely.
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2017 8:57:17 GMT
It's like complaining that the lion that everyone warned you not to let out of the cage is now threatening to eat your children unless you sacrifice your cattle to it. Yes it is, which is why more people are less enamoured with the EU than before the referendum. Another way is it's like a protection racket and now the mob are trying threats. Such behaviour doesn't appeal to peoples better nature. The EU knows we're not going back, we know we now can't go back to the way things were so there really is no alternative but to get on with Brexit and make the best of it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 9:17:07 GMT
It's like complaining that the lion that everyone warned you not to let out of the cage is now threatening to eat your children unless you sacrifice your cattle to it. Why would we want to be in a cage with a lion?
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Post by PG on Sept 5, 2017 9:35:08 GMT
I wasn't complaining, merely pointing out that to the non-politicised onlooker that the EU behaviour is currently entirely justifying Brexit as they are coming across as money-grasping shitehawks looking to bully the UK as it strives for a form of independence. It's their equivalent of the Russians sending tanks into Prague in 1968. +1 The EU had two opportunities to be reasonable before we voted out - when Cameron asked for changes and during the referendum campaign. And in both cases they merely proved the old adage that while slapping a person in the face may be good for them in some circumstances, you can only do it a certain number of times before they hit you back. And now post referendum and into the negotiation, they are just continuing that approach and proving that everything said about them is true....
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Post by Tim on Sept 5, 2017 11:21:07 GMT
Surely the reason that Remainers need to keep 'whingeing on about it' is to remind the Brexiteer negotiating team that they have a duty to represent a significant portion of the electorate and don't have carte blanche to simply get out of the EU at any cost?
It was a narrow victory and the slight minority need to be accommodated too.
From where I'm looking at it the whole 'negotiating' process is a fuck up anyway. Why didn't we just take the moral high ground at the beginning and agree that EU citizens who are already here can stay if they want? We all know the country needs them to stay and to try to negotiate using them as a lever is embarrassing me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 11:51:29 GMT
Agreed, the citizens of the nations remaining must have their rights protected. Not under EU law, with the Eu courts having final say on any issues but under UK law. They are contributing to our bottom line and should be treated decently with health care etc.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2017 12:08:20 GMT
It's like complaining that the lion that everyone warned you not to let out of the cage is now threatening to eat your children unless you sacrifice your cattle to it. Yes it is, which is why more people are less enamoured with the EU than before the referendum. Another way is it's like a protection racket and now the mob are trying threats. Such behaviour doesn't appeal to peoples better nature. The EU knows we're not going back, we know we now can't go back to the way things were so there really is no alternative but to get on with Brexit and make the best of it. Ok, but my point is that for political reasons that are important to / make sense in Brussels and 27 other European countries, everything that has come to pass was entirely predictable. I'm not excusing it. I have never said it was fair. I never said I liked it. I am simply saying it was very obvious that it was never going to be any different and it was pure fantasy to think otherwise. Fairness doesn't come into it.
So excuse me for not having much truck with complaints about things happening exactly as foretold. I voted against Brexit on pragmatic grounds because I thought the consequences of it would be dire, not because I have an ideological view one way or the other. I have always said that I would love to be proved wrong, but unfortunately so far that has not happened.
It has also not escaped my notice that every single person I know of, whose opinions I generally hold in high regard, whether here or elsewhere, thinks Brexit is a tragedy for this country. Not a single one thinks that Britain will emerge from this in a better position than it was in before. I can't think of another topic on which there is such complete unanimity. I cannot ignore that, or the fact that there remains not a single compelling argument in favour once you discard the ideology.
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2017 12:11:09 GMT
That's all fair enough but do you accept that we can't go back?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2017 12:22:23 GMT
It's nothing to do with intelligence but it has an awful lot to do with ignorance. More specifically ignorance of one's own ignorance You're saying the same thing but with more words and proving my point entirely. No I'm not and no I'm not.
I am ignorant of many more things than I am not ignorant of. We all are. That doesn't have anything to do with our intelligence levels. You can be highly intelligent but not practical, or not intellectually curious. Or not score highly in an IQ test but be imbued with plenty of common sense or a thirst for the new.
In my first-hand experience, most people had a pre-conceived idea about Europe and Brexit from the get-go and did very little to inform themselves as to whether or not it was based on sound thinking and analysis. Which goes for both sides.
I know a lot of foreigners living in London and a common comment they make is that they find the British in general, even in professional circles, very ignorant about Europe and indeed foreign affairs in general. You might not like that (and I don't like hearing it either - the truth often hurts), but that's the impression we make on foreigners it would seem. Doesn't bode well.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2017 12:28:15 GMT
That's all fair enough but do you accept that we can't go back? If you asked me to bet, I'd say no.
However, I have no idea! How can any of us having this conversation really know the answer to that? Odder things have happened.
But that makes no difference to the Europeans. From a political perspective, it would be suicidal of them to give Britain anything remotely close to what Britain wants. We British keep banging on about the economics and whinging about the Europeans putting politics above economics, but that is so completely hypocritical as to be ridiculous. Brexit is the very definition of British politics being put before British economics. On what possible basis could we expect the Europeans to prioritise things any differently?
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2017 12:37:40 GMT
I don't believe we can now go back. The only way to do it would be by referendum and as said the arguments to leave are now much easier to make and we would be worse off than we were pre-referendum. That's the worst part of this, we're all damned anyway. Nobody knows how this is going to play out, I think Europe is likely to experience some tension as the process goes on. Not only from Brexit but other external factors like Greece, migration and so on that will set countries and the commission against each other. I would hope that some sensible deal can be reached for all but regardless it's the path we're on and for me the time of moaning is over and it's a case of making the best of it.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2017 12:45:12 GMT
Problem is that "the best of it" is better described as "the least worst of it".
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Post by michael on Sept 5, 2017 12:50:25 GMT
That may be the case but it remains the best option as we can't go back to a time before June 23rd last year.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 14:23:01 GMT
I hear that things are going to be worse for us and that the EU nations remaining have the right to do this while having us pay for their bottom line post leaving. This is not unfair, it is illegal. We were told that the British people were not being punished but that in any divorce their is a financial settlement to pay. This works both ways. Or is this divorce being settled in some fashion not seen before? The balance of trade is heavily biassed in imports to this country, do they not want to sell to us? Are they so embittered that the only way to prevent others leaving is to punish us? How can that be legal?
Punishment as an example to others who might leave is the only conclusion I can come up with and this is reinforced by the statements of those representatives of the EU negotiating team and the public figures we all know these people. A divorce is supposed to be an equitable settlement and yet the statement that "Being outside the EU can never be allowed to be better than being inside the EU". A pretty damning statement for the methods the EU are using to do exactly what they say they are NOT doing, punishing the UK. Not equitable or legal, just theft.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 5, 2017 15:06:50 GMT
But of course it is punishment as an example to others who might leave! That's the entire point!
I pointed out that this would occur any number of times last year before the vote. The EU correctly sees Brexit as posing an existential threat to the EU - after all, what's the point of being a member of the EU if member states can be allowed to leave and still enjoy all of the privileges and none of the burdens of membership (which, make no mistake, is what the Brexit crowd would have you believe is possible). That's why the politics trumps the economics in a way that otherwise wouldn't make sense (just as it does in Britain - no matter what anyone says, Brexit is the result of political ideology, and not based on any form of rational economic analysis).
There's no precedent for this and therefore you cannot say "oh it is supposed to x y or z". It's an outright fight. It will be a dirty fight and the strongest party will win. If you think Britain would act differently if the shoe was on the other foot, you are very much mistaken.
To repeat myself: it's not fair. But the world isn't. As a nation, we have miscalculated. This is a gamble we will struggle to win and possibly can't win thanks to loaded odds, and we will bear the consequences. As Michael says, we must seek to make the best of the situation. But it is an unhappy situation that even those who wanted Brexit will be dissatisfied with, not least because the Brexit of their dreams is probably not achievable.
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Post by johnc on Sept 5, 2017 15:06:59 GMT
When David Cameron went to Brussels to try to get some changes and a better deal for the UK, we saw very clearly what the EU's attitude was - these are the rules of the club and you either abide by them or you leave, but as a sweetener to stay, here's a months free subscription and a packet of nuts.
Now that the British public have rejected the offer to stay, the EU are checking all the small print to keep us to our contract and ensure we pay our full subscriptions. Remember that the EU is run by Bureaucrats who have an awful lot to lose if the EU starts to fall apart, so they will play hardball and we won't get any favours. Ultimately it won't be the best deal for either party and there is going to be pain felt in many quarters. Let the dust settle for a few years and a revised trade deal with more favourable terms might emerge. Treat it like a run down a very rough and long set of rapids with no life jackets and a bunch of drunks on board who think its fun to throw the paddles away - there are likely to be casualties and we have no idea what state we will be in when we get out the other end!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 7:33:34 GMT
Why didn't we just take the moral high ground at the beginning and agree that EU citizens who are already here can stay if they want? We all know the country needs them to stay and to try to negotiate using them as a lever is embarrassing me. As far as I am aware, they already did....at the get go.
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Post by PetrolEd on Sept 6, 2017 10:23:06 GMT
Sorry Racing but you sound like a battered wife who won't leave her husband in case she gets another shoeing. Of course they'll change there ways, they're just being cunts for our own good.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 6, 2017 17:00:25 GMT
Sorry Racing but you sound like a battered wife who won't leave her husband in case she gets another shoeing. Of course they'll change there ways, they're just being cunts for our own good. I really don't think that's in any way an accurate analogy.
I'm saying "quit whinging about how horrible Europe is being to us - you were warned repeatedly that they would be horrible to us if we did this but you chose to ignore those warnings and do it anyway".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 17:13:36 GMT
Not whinging and not an inevitable result either. The major industrial companies in the EU will chew nails and spit rust if the EU negotiators force us to leave without a deal. A sticky end for some political opportunists will be the result, just not in the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 7:15:09 GMT
Sorry Racing but you sound like a battered wife who won't leave her husband in case she gets another shoeing. Of course they'll change there ways, they're just being cunts for our own good.
I'm saying "quit whinging about how horrible Europe is being to us - you were warned repeatedly that they would be horrible to us if we did this but you chose to ignore those warnings and do it anyway".
Why would you stay with someone who is hell-bent on being horrible to you?
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Post by Tim on Sept 7, 2017 9:02:14 GMT
I think Racing's point is that we were warned they would be horrible to us if we left, not that they were being horrible before the referendum (I think they were fairly even-handed with their poor treatment).
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Post by johnc on Sept 7, 2017 11:42:24 GMT
I agree entirely with Racing's viewpoint. Remainers were accused of scaremongering, negative comments, no patriotism and no vision.
So far, there have been many more of the remainers warnings coming true than any of the positives the Brexiteers promoted.
We are still in uncharted territory but I think it is clear to everyone that it won't be plain sailing. We are heading straight into the unknown with a headwind.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 7, 2017 13:26:32 GMT
I think Racing's point is that we were warned they would be horrible to us if we left, not that they were being horrible before the referendum (I think they were fairly even-handed with their poor treatment). Yes, that's exactly my point.
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Post by PetrolEd on Sept 7, 2017 14:17:05 GMT
Apologies, so they're like the mafia not a violent husband, that's all right then.
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