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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 13:55:24 GMT
Nothing feeds cynicism like an underlying disagreement with the thing you're being cynical about. I'm not remotely a Marxist so how come the fact that some Extinction Rebellion types are doesn't bother me even slightly but gets you hot under the collar? The adult thing to do is surely to engage with the underlying issue (which is the single most serious one we face in the absence of an outbreak of deadly pandemic) and seek common ground and sensible compromises, whilst finding discrete ways to defuse the nutter element, rather than find excuses to retreat behind the comfort blanket of doing nothing. There's a lot wrong with that statement.
First of all it's how you fix the problem. As you've admitted above, for a lot of people being seen to champion the cause is more important than their own behaviour change. This 'do as I say not as I do' is a typical product of Marxism and that is abhorrent and needs to be resisted. You really are fussed about Marxism aren't you? The other problem with this is that it's the eco-lobby way or no way. Says only them but like I have pointed, I just ignore the more obviously silly bits without getting all het up about it. I'd argue they've got it wrong in a great many cases. Argument is good - better than outright dismissal. Electric cars for example in terms of whole life costs are worse polluting than conventional cars. Not in an urban setting where you need to consider the local health impacts of air quality. We'd be better adopting LPG vehicles until electric was clean (battery wise) and efficient. Same is true of energy production, we should have invested in nuclear years ago as energy security with windmills isn't viable. What do you do with the highly toxic waste? But there's no room for debate here because you're a denier if you disagree. It's the way you disagree.
You mentioned earlier on what's the point of educating young people for a doomed future. I'd argue that terrifying children about a forthcoming apocalypse is at best scaremongering and at worst abusive. What's the risk, out of curiosity? That they worry about it? Maybe, just maybe that's a good thing. The future which is a reality is that their prospects are substantially curtailed by the damage we're doing to our economy whilst giving China a free pass. Brexit, anyone? Most people would agree that reducing the UK emissions to zero will do nothing to global warming so long as China carries on as it likes. China is learning. It's at the forefront of a lot of green tech If the prophecies are true the best we can hope for is to point to a London flooded by seawater and say to China, "there, I told you so". I somehow doubt they'll give a toss. They'll give a toss when they own it. I'd regard the treat of China as a more real risk to our way of life than climate change. One doesn't negate the other. It's a challenging problem that a lot of people aren't keen to address, retreating to comfort blankets and doing nothing springs to mind. China? Absolutely - it's a particular vice of the Tory party. Cameron...Osborne...I doubt Johnson is different.
Finally, those you castigate of doing nothing may be doing more than you but as they're not reading from your prescribed script they're heretics. I didn't castigate anyone in particular so the remark stands - loads of people do zip and that's who the remark was aimed at. Obviously. By definition someone who is doing something isn't doing nothing. And I don't have any prescribed script. I've planted over one hundred trees on my land, I've got fifty silver birch trees growing from seed in pots that I give away for people and organisations to plant locally. I've also planted quite a few on verges and other places which are doing very well. Wonderful. And why? With that, and plenty of other examples of doing something I could reel off, the accusation of doing nothing is as lazy as it is false. As I noted, I never said you did nothing. Good that you do. But then I'm less bothered about being seen to say the on-message things - I'm more an actions speak louder than words type in that respect. Me neither - what on earth do I have to gain by being "on-message" on this forum for heaven's sake? I don't bang on about green here - I simply take issue with uncalled for attacks on climate change campaigning. Oh wow. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 13:59:03 GMT
I don't agree with that black and white view, not least because it means sweet FA will happen. People still need to drive and fly - there isn't the infrastructure to allow many to stop doing so. People still need to be warm and eat - biology dictates that. The point is to start encouraging people to change their behaviour because this is one area where every little really does help. And at the same time, active engagement from government and commerce is required to ensure that the choice offered to consumers is cleaner and greener as that will also usefully deal with those who refuse to engage. This is a key point. There is no point in being " greener and cleaner". If there truly is the crisis we are all being told is here now, that is just pissing in the wind. We are being told that we need to be at net zero by 2050. That means in that only 30 years, we have to net emit zero CO2. My own view is that unless we find a way to suspend the laws of themodynamics this is just a stupid political soundbite that is pointless and causes a lot of the "why bother" approach. Unless there is some huge technological leap in the next 15 years (and then 15 years to roll it out), if you believe the worst forecasts, we are all fucked. It would be far better for the extremists to agree to sensible actions that may be achievable and try to take people with you. Not shout at them in the comfort of western democracies that won't shoot them to shut them up. The world cannot even agree to cut emissions in line with Kyoto or Paris - let alone net zero. If the world is to go into crisis, then those countries that have taken the right steps now - lower populations, more self sufficiency (power, food, infrastructure) may survive. Those that do not will probably be swept away - not by climate but by the inevitable inter-region / inter-country conflict that resource issues will cause. We in the west are terribly naive to think that China have our best interests at heart. No they have their own and it is about time we adopted the same approach. I'm really not sure we are actually disagreeing with each other on the fundamentals. But the two highlighted points are the same side of the coin. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 14:05:32 GMT
Nobody wants to. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. But everybody has to be prepared to start thinking just a tiny bit more about what they do and how they do it. It's not such a massive ask is it? There's a big issue in this country with people having a "it's not my problem" attitude - I don't know where it comes from. I can only assume there is something deeply wrong with our education system. Without being too personal which I know I am , but what are you doing? We are all well aware of your travels from your posts on here, so it does come across as do as a I would like rather then what I do. As in what do I do to reduce my environmental impact? |
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 14:11:23 GMT
There's a lot wrong with that statement.
First of all it's how you fix the problem. As you've admitted above, for a lot of people being seen to champion the cause is more important than their own behaviour change. This 'do as I say not as I do' is a typical product of Marxism and that is abhorrent and needs to be resisted. You really are fussed about Marxism aren't you? The other problem with this is that it's the eco-lobby way or no way. Says only them but like I have pointed, I just ignore the more obviously silly bits without getting all het up about it. I'd argue they've got it wrong in a great many cases. Argument is good - better than outright dismissal. Electric cars for example in terms of whole life costs are worse polluting than conventional cars. Not in an urban setting where you need to consider the local health impacts of air quality. We'd be better adopting LPG vehicles until electric was clean (battery wise) and efficient. Same is true of energy production, we should have invested in nuclear years ago as energy security with windmills isn't viable. What do you do with the highly toxic waste? But there's no room for debate here because you're a denier if you disagree. It's the way you disagree.
You mentioned earlier on what's the point of educating young people for a doomed future. I'd argue that terrifying children about a forthcoming apocalypse is at best scaremongering and at worst abusive. What's the risk, out of curiosity? That they worry about it? Maybe, just maybe that's a good thing. The future which is a reality is that their prospects are substantially curtailed by the damage we're doing to our economy whilst giving China a free pass. Brexit, anyone? Most people would agree that reducing the UK emissions to zero will do nothing to global warming so long as China carries on as it likes. China is learning. It's at the forefront of a lot of green tech If the prophecies are true the best we can hope for is to point to a London flooded by seawater and say to China, "there, I told you so". I somehow doubt they'll give a toss. They'll give a toss when they own it. I'd regard the treat of China as a more real risk to our way of life than climate change. One doesn't negate the other. It's a challenging problem that a lot of people aren't keen to address, retreating to comfort blankets and doing nothing springs to mind. China? Absolutely - it's a particular vice of the Tory party. Cameron...Osborne...I doubt Johnson is different.
Finally, those you castigate of doing nothing may be doing more than you but as they're not reading from your prescribed script they're heretics. I didn't castigate anyone in particular so the remark stands - loads of people do zip and that's who the remark was aimed at. Obviously. By definition someone who is doing something isn't doing nothing. And I don't have any prescribed script. I've planted over one hundred trees on my land, I've got fifty silver birch trees growing from seed in pots that I give away for people and organisations to plant locally. I've also planted quite a few on verges and other places which are doing very well. Wonderful. And why? With that, and plenty of other examples of doing something I could reel off, the accusation of doing nothing is as lazy as it is false. As I noted, I never said you did nothing. Good that you do. But then I'm less bothered about being seen to say the on-message things - I'm more an actions speak louder than words type in that respect. Me neither - what on earth do I have to gain by being "on-message" on this forum for heaven's sake? I don't bang on about green here - I simply take issue with uncalled for attacks on climate change campaigning. Oh wow. Quite, I get that you see this as a Brexit issue. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 14:13:18 GMT
Huh?
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Post by Tim on Jan 21, 2020 14:30:27 GMT
There's a report listing the most polluted streets in Scotland and 3rd on the list is Seagate in Dundee. I walk along there a couple of times a week and guess what, 50% of the traffic is buses. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51163098 |
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 14:43:57 GMT
There's a lot wrong with that statement.
First of all it's how you fix the problem. As you've admitted above, for a lot of people being seen to champion the cause is more important than their own behaviour change. This 'do as I say not as I do' is a typical product of Marxism and that is abhorrent and needs to be resisted. You really are fussed about Marxism aren't you? Yes, I think it's be catastrophic to our future The other problem with this is that it's the eco-lobby way or no way. Says only them but like I have pointed, I just ignore the more obviously silly bits without getting all het up about it. They're the disciples I've referred to in my initial post I'd argue they've got it wrong in a great many cases. Argument is good - better than outright dismissal. Agreed Electric cars for example in terms of whole life costs are worse polluting than conventional cars. Not in an urban setting where you need to consider the local health impacts of air quality. Climate change is a global issue. If you're taking it seriously you look at the bigger picture, to ignore the wider consequences of an electric car in order to please your locality is virtue signalling typical of the green lobby. We'd be better adopting LPG vehicles until electric was clean (battery wise) and efficient. Same is true of energy production, we should have invested in nuclear years ago as energy security with windmills isn't viable. What do you do with the highly toxic waste? Manage it best you can. Reprocessing and storage contains the problem for now, technologies will develop with demand to improve the situation further. But there's no room for debate here because you're a denier if you disagree. It's the way you disagree. I'll disagree to disagree.
You mentioned earlier on what's the point of educating young people for a doomed future. I'd argue that terrifying children about a forthcoming apocalypse is at best scaremongering and at worst abusive. What's the risk, out of curiosity? That they worry about it? Maybe, just maybe that's a good thing. I don't think the degree to which fear is used with young children is appropriate. The future which is a reality is that their prospects are substantially curtailed by the damage we're doing to our economy whilst giving China a free pass. Brexit, anyone? Most people would agree that reducing the UK emissions to zero will do nothing to global warming so long as China carries on as it likes. China is learning. It's at the forefront of a lot of green tech The problem is they're also the forefront of pollution as is the rest of the developing world. If the prophecies are true the best we can hope for is to point to a London flooded by seawater and say to China, "there, I told you so". I somehow doubt they'll give a toss. They'll give a toss when they own it. See here>>> I'd regard the treat of China as a more real risk to our way of life than climate change. One doesn't negate the other. Perhaps not but you need to prioritise actions. It's a challenging problem that a lot of people aren't keen to address, retreating to comfort blankets and doing nothing springs to mind. China? Absolutely - it's a particular vice of the Tory party. Cameron...Osborne...I doubt Johnson is different. I agree
Finally, those you castigate of doing nothing may be doing more than you but as they're not reading from your prescribed script they're heretics. I didn't castigate anyone in particular so the remark stands - loads of people do zip and that's who the remark was aimed at. Obviously. By definition someone who is doing something isn't doing nothing. And I don't have any prescribed script. You suggested I do nothing on this issue. I've planted over one hundred trees on my land, I've got fifty silver birch trees growing from seed in pots that I give away for people and organisations to plant locally. I've also planted quite a few on verges and other places which are doing very well. Wonderful. And why? Because I like tree, because I can and because in the spirit of everyone doing their bit it's a bit I can do. With that, and plenty of other examples of doing something I could reel off, the accusation of doing nothing is as lazy as it is false. As I noted, I never said you did nothing. Good that you do. You suggested otherwise But then I'm less bothered about being seen to say the on-message things - I'm more an actions speak louder than words type in that respect. Me neither - what on earth do I have to gain by being "on-message" on this forum for heaven's sake? I don't bang on about green here - I simply take issue with uncalled for attacks on climate change campaigning. My original post was something about the more I see of Greta and her disciples the more I want a V8. From the above you should be able to deduce I don't see their motive as entirely about climate change.
Oh wow. For the sake of formatting we're going to have to agree to disagree on this... |
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Post by grampa on Jan 21, 2020 14:55:29 GMT
Not sure how many children are getting scared by Greta - I asked my granddaughter what the feeling in her school was and she replied, "She goes on a bit" and moved on to the next subject.
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Post by johnc on Jan 21, 2020 15:16:07 GMT
There's a report listing the most polluted streets in Scotland and 3rd on the list is Seagate in Dundee. I walk along there a couple of times a week and guess what, 50% of the traffic is buses. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51163098Like Union Street in Glasgow which is now bus and taxi only!! |
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 21, 2020 16:01:35 GMT
Not sure how many children are getting scared by Greta - I asked my granddaughter what the feeling in her school was and she replied, "She goes on a bit" and moved on to the next subject. My elder daughter is the travel ambassador for her school, meaning she's supposed to expound the benefits of walking or riding to school. If it's pissing down I drive her and her sister. She doesn't complain. As a family we're good at recycling, we don't waste food, we keep a nice mixed garden of plants (and foxes  ) and living in the 'burbs we use public transport far more than the cars. But as we are in international family we do fly a lot more than others and given that last weekend we numbered seven in the house we breath out, shit and fart more than the the average family - as said above the genie is out of the bottle. I can't NOT see my aged mother in the South of France nor expect her lungs to cope with the damp UK air and move closer; same for W2.1's parents, her father especially as he is a forest custodian in his home area. The issue is: we do what we can but if you force us to do more than we deem adequate without destroying our lives we will resist. I suspect we are not alone in this thinking, despite what the extremist ecology gang thinks. |
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Post by michael on Jan 21, 2020 16:08:05 GMT
I suspect we are not alone in this thinking, despite what the extremist ecology gang thinks. You've already got your V8. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 16:28:34 GMT
I suspect that at the moment I would be considered a bit more polluting than the average individual, while the exhalation is more likely average, the shitting and farting are something else. I do like cheese now and then tho'. On that theme, as a sprout denier, I get really po'd that mine smell like sprout, bad sprout.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 21, 2020 16:53:44 GMT
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Post by LandieMark on Jan 21, 2020 17:03:32 GMT
Which is why enabling her isn't helpful in the slightest. It's completely unrealistic and hypocritical.
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Post by Tim on Jan 21, 2020 17:04:03 GMT
I can't find a full article but the BBC business news feed has another teeange activist
"Melati Wisjen is not your average teenager.
At the age of 12, she and her 10-year-old sister Isabel decided something had to be done about the plastic waste clogging up the oceans around the Indonesian island of Bali where they live.
So they launched a grassroots campaign on the island named Bye Bye Plastic Bags.
After years of hard work it resulted in the local government banning single-use plastic bags, straws and styrofoam in 2019."
The accompanying photo shows her at Davos (I presume, I doubt there are many ski resorts on Bali) and her name and appearance suggest she's possibly not a, er, local.
I wonder how she got to Davos and whether she and her family fly back to (again, I presume, Holland/Denmark) occasionally to see relatives.
Of course, she's a teenage climate activist so completely beyond criticism......
Having said that I agree with her desire to get the plastic stuff banned.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 21, 2020 17:54:12 GMT
Not sure how many children are getting scared by Greta - I asked my granddaughter what the feeling in her school was and she replied, "She goes on a bit" and moved on to the next subject. My elder daughter is the travel ambassador for her school, meaning she's supposed to expound the benefits of walking or riding to school. If it's pissing down I drive her and her sister. She doesn't complain. As a family we're good at recycling, we don't waste food, we keep a nice mixed garden of plants (and foxes ) and living in the 'burbs we use public transport far more than the cars. But as we are in international family we do fly a lot more than others and given that last weekend we numbered seven in the house we breath out, shit and fart more than the the average family - as said above the genie is out of the bottle. I can't NOT see my aged mother in the South of France nor expect her lungs to cope with the damp UK air and move closer; same for W2.1's parents, her father especially as he is a forest custodian in his home area. The issue is: we do what we can but if you force us to do more than we deem adequate without destroying our lives we will resist. I suspect we are not alone in this thinking, despite what the extremist ecology gang thinks. You and I are largely in the same boat and largely for the same reason. One of our parents lives in another country and so do our partner's parents. I am at least lucky that my father and my in-laws live in the same country. As regards flying, last year I don't think I flew anywhere other than Italy and we drove down for Christmas. We haven't had a long haul holiday in the last 8 years and I very rarely need to fly for business. Apart from the flights and the private indulgence of my car, we are pretty good without actively making any form of fuss about it. We commute by public transport or bike, we recycle, we don't drink bottled water, we have an energy-efficient house, we buy local produce, we replace stuff only when it breaks, etc etc. I've been a paying supporter of various environmental action and conservation groups since my days as an undergraduate studying environmental biology so I was there when this was not fashionable. Moreover, besides advising my paying clients, I run a number of pro bono matters where we provide free legal support to organisations involved in various projects relating to sustainable finance, energy efficiency and conservation. It's never been easy to be environmentally conscious and yet a massive petrolhead. I've always been aware of the irony and it tends to be why I mostly quietly just get on with it. |
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Post by PG on Jan 21, 2020 18:12:22 GMT
"Real zero". Net zero was bad enough (and impossible with current technology and other factors), but real zero. WTF does that even mean? No breathing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 18:42:58 GMT
She's an idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 18:44:48 GMT
Probably a metred breathing device and a tube up the chuff attached to an inflatable bag for the emissions control. Easy to see who had the curry though. I bet mp's get a bye despite being the major poluters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 22:19:18 GMT
Every time you breathe out or fart you have to plant a tree. I think the Labour manifesto promised a similar thing.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 22, 2020 11:36:36 GMT
How is it that I hear the same stuff and yet manage to merely think "hmm, this is a serious issue and I need to do something about this" whilst ignoring the very obviously silly parts and not getting wound up by them?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 22, 2020 12:00:16 GMT
How is it that I hear the same stuff and yet manage to merely think "hmm, this is a serious issue and I need to do something about this" whilst ignoring the very obviously silly parts and not getting wound up by them? I think sensible people get wound up by them because they know stupid people will take them literally and run with them - the same stupid ones drawn to extremists like ER. So when you're sitting in your car and some nutter jumps on the bonnet accusing you of being a baby-killing Nazi you'll be able to trace their thought process back. |
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 22, 2020 12:01:11 GMT
How is it that I hear the same stuff and yet manage to merely think "hmm, this is a serious issue and I need to do something about this" whilst ignoring the very obviously silly parts and not getting wound up by them? Legal training  I think that we live in an era where the minor issues are magnified to such an extent that they do take the focus off of the major ones. The media doesn't help (Royal family vs Aussie bush fires vs Iran Crisis) and also the fact that we live in what are stable and safe times to the largest extent history has seen means that there is less need to focus on major issues as we are generally fed, watered, sheltered and not being carpet bombed at night by huge squadrons of aircraft that block out the moonlit sky. Oh and as we're focussing on the minor issues: no zombies either. I did say that's what I think so you can all call me whatever you like - I'll still think it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 12:18:45 GMT
You see, that is the first mistake many of us make, we think. A big no-no in today's society.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 22, 2020 12:30:17 GMT
You see, that is the first mistake many of us make, we think. A big no-no in today's society. Funnily enough, I was thinking the opposite - that people either don't think or prefer not to. Certainly talking about a serious topic, however interesting, is frequently considered to be socially awkward in this country. Instead one is just expected to blather away meaninglessly but amusingly about as little of substance as possible, or else be prepared to engage in deeply dull gossip about other people's lives. I'm thinking of Michael Gove and his remark about experts. It reminds me that calling someone an intellectual in this country is not typically a compliment - it's not a word with hugely positive connotations. Whereas in most continental European cultures, intellectualism is highly regarded and to be called an intellectual is most definitely a compliment. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 22, 2020 12:37:31 GMT
How is it that I hear the same stuff and yet manage to merely think "hmm, this is a serious issue and I need to do something about this" whilst ignoring the very obviously silly parts and not getting wound up by them? I think sensible people get wound up by them because they know stupid people will take them literally and run with them - the same stupid ones drawn to extremists like the ERG. So when you're sitting in your car and some nutter jumps on the bonnet accusing you of being a traitor Remainer you'll be able to trace their thought process back. I don't suppose I'm allowed to draw the above parallel... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 13:01:40 GMT
You see, that is the first mistake many of us make, we think. A big no-no in today's society. Funnily enough, I was thinking the opposite - that people either don't think or prefer not to. Certainly talking about a serious topic, however interesting, is frequently considered to be socially awkward in this country. Instead one is just expected to blather away meaninglessly but amusingly about as little of substance as possible, or else be prepared to engage in deeply dull gossip about other people's lives. I'm thinking of Michael Gove and his remark about experts. It reminds me that calling someone an intellectual in this country is not typically a compliment - it's not a word with hugely positive connotations. Whereas in most continental European cultures, intellectualism is highly regarded and to be called an intellectual is most definitely a compliment. Gove's quote is right up there with 'there's no such thing as society' for me. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 22, 2020 13:14:13 GMT
I think sensible people get wound up by them because they know stupid people will take them literally and run with them - the same stupid ones drawn to extremists like the ERG. So when you're sitting in your car and some nutter jumps on the bonnet accusing you of being a traitor Remainer you'll be able to trace their thought process back. I don't suppose I'm allowed to draw the above parallel...  You do have rather a habit of relating everything back to Brexit... |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 22, 2020 13:51:20 GMT
I don't suppose I'm allowed to draw the above parallel... You do have rather a habit of relating everything back to Brexit... I tried. Honestly I did. But I was like a moth drawn inexorably to the flame...I could not resist... |
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) and living in the 'burbs we use public transport far more than the cars. But as we are in international family we do fly a lot more than others and given that last weekend we numbered seven in the house we breath out, shit and fart more than the the average family - as said above the genie is out of the bottle. I can't NOT see my aged mother in the South of France nor expect her lungs to cope with the damp UK air and move closer; same for W2.1's parents, her father especially as he is a forest custodian in his home area. 
You do have rather a habit of relating everything back to Brexit...