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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 7:14:42 GMT
Or Racism vs England, perhaps? Football aside, thoughts? Did it go far enough? Should England have walked off in the 2nd half? And is five questions in a row too many?
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Post by johnc on Oct 15, 2019 7:44:59 GMT
There is a latent dislike (even hatred) of the UK from certain parts of Russian and former USSR states (even Putin has said that the UK is Russia's natural enemy). They probably consider England as the symbol of the UK which is why there is always a tension in football games when England play such countries. They like to be seen to be harder than the British and the type of neanderthal who thinks that way tends to be of the extreme right wing type (although the former heads of the Communist regime and intelligence services who now rule Russia demonstrate exactly the same traits).
The UK has a much more multi cultural/multi race society than any of the former Soviet countries due to the fact that the USSR was effectively sectioned off from the world for 60 or 70 years so migration didn't happen. It will probably take them another 30 or 40 years to get to where we are today.
I don't think it would have done England any good to have walked off (in fact the perpetrators may have considered that a victory for them) and it is now up to FIFA to impose a punishment which befits the actions of the minority in the crowd and makes every football association sit up and take notice.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 15, 2019 7:59:34 GMT
I'm not sure the USSR was sectioned off from the world for 60 or 70 years - a large part of the doctrine of the old USSR was exchange programs with other communists states around the globe, doctors from Cuba, students from all over Africa, so it's not like the citizens of countries from behind the Iron Curtain are unfamiliar with seeing a black face walking down the street.
Football is tribal, some fans will use any weapon they can to try and get under the skin of opposition players and racial taunting is an easy one to adopt. Last night there was a hard core element determined to challenge the anti-racist agenda and their monkey chants and fascist salutes confirmed this. Most ft of them left at half time and the situation got better. I'd have supported the England team if they'd walked off. What if they'd been 3 goals down though? What headache would that create for UEFA? Who gets the points?
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Post by johnc on Oct 15, 2019 8:07:37 GMT
I'm not sure the USSR was sectioned off from the world for 60 or 70 years - a large part of the doctrine of the old USSR was exchange programs with other communists states around the globe, doctors from Cuba, students from all over Africa, so it's not like the citizens of countries from behind the Iron Curtain are unfamiliar with seeing a black face walking down the street. But when the visits were sanctioned by the State and the State has an iron fist, thoughts, such as racist ones, are subdued. Now these types of thought are almost encouraged by certain ex soviet bloc leaders.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 8:28:09 GMT
There was at least one black fella (Pashov) playing for Bulgaria that I saw, so were they throwing abuse at their own team, too?
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Post by Roadsterstu on Oct 15, 2019 8:53:23 GMT
Utterly disgusting behaviour. And the Bulgarian coach apparently didn't hear any of it. Talk about head in the sand.
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Post by Roadrunner on Oct 15, 2019 11:07:34 GMT
It was a vile display of hatred, but I think Southgate and the England team made the right call and behaved impeccably. We must not forget, however, that racist behaviour still exists in some English stands, with racist chants and bananas thrown onto the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 11:26:56 GMT
Indeed. On balance, I think I'm glad that they finished the game, but suspect that more good would have been done for football as a whole if they hadn't.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Oct 15, 2019 11:38:58 GMT
It was a vile display of hatred, but I think Southgate and the England team made the right call and behaved impeccably. We must not forget, however, that racist behaviour still exists in some English stands, with racist chants and bananas thrown onto the pitch. It does indeed but that lot, if it happened over here, would have been swiftly rounded up and nicked.
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Post by Tim on Oct 15, 2019 12:28:13 GMT
I haven't seen any coverage but did listen to them discussing it on the news this morning.
Without knowing how bad it was my thoughts (whenever these sort of things crop up) are more along the lines of 'stay on the pitch and give the opposition a good hammering'.
I'm sure it isn't out of order to say that the targets of this sort of abuse are rarely 'snowflakes', will have heard it a thousand times before and actually to walk away would probably be out of character.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 13:45:14 GMT
No idea how to get through to these people who live in a strange world where it is perfectly OK to rip shit out of someone different or not, but cannot stand it being chucked back at them. Perhaps an instant forfeit of the game would do, maybe encourage the clubs with such ?supporters? to give them life bans and make it count.
We have a similar situation here with one of our older residents who basically has been so bad one couple have moved out recently and the Spanish family left some time ago. Needless to say that both families white and black, will be more missed than the racist bigoted fish wife if she ever goes.
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Post by Alex on Oct 15, 2019 16:06:58 GMT
I think they made the right call to play on and thump the Bulgarians 6-0. No point letting them win by walking off, just let your football do the talking.
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Post by Ben on Oct 15, 2019 19:00:18 GMT
FIFA and UEFA should chuck the Bulgarians out of the competition, and ban them from any further competitions for the next few years. That would be a huge message and hit them where it really hurts.
But of course, they'll be too gutless to do so.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 15, 2019 21:16:12 GMT
In certain states if you're not a Slav you're a bloody wierdo (so me with green eyes, my daughter with blonde hair).
Had the debate with W2.1 last night and she admits that central and eastern states are racist so we discussed why. Consider this: those states never had empires and overseas territories like Britain, France, Belgium and Holland. We states (more than most others in Europe) are particularly tolerant but is that because we have a history of having been particularly horrible to the ancestors of black and asian people, or because we embraced them as citizens at an early stage (due to those overseas territories) we've developed further in acceptance? Whichever it may never be the case that other nations will be as tolerant as those 4 I mentioned because they have no reason to feel obliged to foreign faces having not forced themselves upon their ancestors, enslaved them and then had to make reparations in social terms.
That sounds like racist apologising and to an extent it probably is but it's no good trying to make entire nationalities think and behave like others when the multi-generational experiences are so far removed from one another. I make the assumption that Jews and Arabs in the middle-east are closely related historically and that their religions have separated them and generations of that have meant that for me to make them wholly accept one another any time soon (say... 500 years) is a no-go. That's what it's like for nations that have never forced blacks and asians to work as slaves, servants and pay taxes to an imperialist master/mistress having to accept black and asian faces in their societies as equals. Like Brexit (an overtly racist political issue so certain section of the UK press can fuck off with its faux outrage at the racism demonstrated in Bulgaria) it's not right but it's actually happening.
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Post by Tim on Oct 16, 2019 8:56:12 GMT
We're just back from a rural part of the Czech Republic and the newsagent shops are all run by people from South East Asia, e.g. Thai's or Vietnamese. Not what we have across here. According to my brother in law this is pretty common outwith Prague. He also pointed out the general lack of 'premium' cars and said the locals just weren't interested. I understand that but time and marketeers will change that situation, as it will with the general reluctance to accept people of a darker skin colour.
In the real world you can't expect these people's culture to change overnight just because they've suddenly been opened up to a wider audience having been at least partially closed off since the 1940s.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 14:29:07 GMT
It was a vile display of hatred, but I think Southgate and the England team made the right call and behaved impeccably. We must not forget, however, that racist behaviour still exists in some English stands, with racist chants and bananas thrown onto the pitch. It does indeed but that lot, if it happened over here, would have been swiftly rounded up and nicked. Six arrested so far, with more wanted. I have doubts about the degree of conviction behind this, but I'll take progress where it comes even grudgingly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 15:58:19 GMT
I picked up a noospaper (Express) for my neighbour today and one of the headlines was "Lions led by a donkey", rather poor taste imho.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 16, 2019 17:17:18 GMT
In certain states if you're not a Slav you're a bloody wierdo (so me with green eyes, my daughter with blonde hair). Had the debate with W2.1 last night and she admits that central and eastern states are racist so we discussed why. Consider this: those states never had empires and overseas territories like Britain, France, Belgium and Holland. We states (more than most others in Europe) are particularly tolerant but is that because we have a history of having been particularly horrible to the ancestors of black and asian people, or because we embraced them as citizens at an early stage (due to those overseas territories) we've developed further in acceptance? Whichever it may never be the case that other nations will be as tolerant as those 4 I mentioned because they have no reason to feel obliged to foreign faces having not forced themselves upon their ancestors, enslaved them and then had to make reparations in social terms. That sounds like racist apologising and to an extent it probably is but it's no good trying to make entire nationalities think and behave like others when the multi-generational experiences are so far removed from one another. I make the assumption that Jews and Arabs in the middle-east are closely related historically and that their religions have separated them and generations of that have meant that for me to make them wholly accept one another any time soon (say... 500 years) is a no-go. That's what it's like for nations that have never forced blacks and asians to work as slaves, servants and pay taxes to an imperialist master/mistress having to accept black and asian faces in their societies as equals. Like Brexit (an overtly racist political issue so certain section of the UK press can fuck off with its faux outrage at the racism demonstrated in Bulgaria) it's not right but it's actually happening. Interesting argument, “we’re racists because we don’t have any white guilt from colonial slavery”
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 16, 2019 21:31:30 GMT
Yep. That’s the argument. There’s less reason for acceptance of something different. It’s really difficult to put a western, white mind into the mindset of a Slav, where it’s only the last decade since wives have had any ownership rights over family homes (and the older husbands have Legacy rights over property), where alimony for abandoned mothers is less enforceable than speed limits in the UK and where your legal rights are about who you know and how much you can pay even down to the level of your local police station. Add in that the average man in the street has barely any rights so allowing any group of incomers that are visibly different more or even the same rights as them is a no go. They owe them or their dignity nothing and they have nothing to lose by isolating them. Ask a Roma in central and Eastern Europe if they’re interested in giving a black or Asian any kind of rights. Like I said: it’s not right but it’s happening.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 16, 2019 21:50:07 GMT
Double post due to racism.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 22:19:35 GMT
Bad man you, you'll have to get one of them pope bracelets and do penthouse.........
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