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Post by michael on Sept 16, 2019 16:27:21 GMT
There are ANPR cameras on it now aren't there?
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Post by johnc on Sept 16, 2019 16:35:29 GMT
Do Norway and Sweden have tariffs on the goods which pass between them. If not, I see a frictionless border as perfectly feasible but there would need to be border controls at the ports and airports for potential illegal immigrants. However if there are tariffs and VAT differences between the UK and the EU how are they going to stop or find the Transit full of goods (or for that matter people) from a different regime?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 16, 2019 18:31:09 GMT
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Post by Stuntman on Sept 16, 2019 20:22:36 GMT
Thanks for sharing that link, I've just read it. Absolutely no substance, nor progress, from him at all, in my opinion. Hold on tight, folks.
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Post by johnc on Sept 17, 2019 8:45:21 GMT
I watched that interview and came away thinking that BJ hadn't actually said anything other than we are coming out on 31st October, I will not break the law but we are still coming out on 31st October and also inferring that the EU are going to have to move their position if a deal is going to get done. All fairly depressing but potentially a good bargaining position as long as the other side aren't playing the same game.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 8:52:03 GMT
The EU really aren't doing themselves any favours with stunts like the one in Luxembourg. The border in Ireland is an EU requirement, they should be coming up with solutions to solve it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 17, 2019 9:05:34 GMT
I can kind of understand Boris' insistence that we leave on 31st Oct. The EU has a long history of not doing a deal until half past the eleventh hour. If you don't set them a deadline and continue to delay they will never make that decision.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 10:27:48 GMT
The EU really aren't doing themselves any favours with stunts like the one in Luxembourg. The border in Ireland is an EU requirement, they should be coming up with solutions to solve it. Why? That's like throwing a plate of food on the floor and telling your wife to clean it up because she wants the floor to be clean whereas you don't care.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 10:32:59 GMT
It's not really anything like that. It's more like a country that's had a free and fair referendum on its place within a trading block and deciding to leave. That trading block has rules and is insisting on a border even though the two counties had an open border prior to the existence of that trading block called the Common Travel Area. The cynic in me might suggest the EU is politicising the Ireland border in order to gain leverage in a deal and that's why they're unwilling to cooperate.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 10:45:12 GMT
I disagree. It is not for the EU to suggest solutions to a problem that we have created. And besides, the NI-only backstop was an EU proposal. It was Mrs May who insisted on extending it to the whole UK to pacify the pitbull.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 11:10:54 GMT
I'd argue that the EU are at least as responsible for the problem. The Common Travel Area was why we had an open border before, the border was a security issue when it was implemented. You can't seriously thing the EU aren't weaponising the border?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 12:02:49 GMT
Interesting reading on the CTA: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_AreaNot quite as cut-and-dried as you make out. Certainly an argument to be had that the CTA came about despite the UK government's actions over the years, not because of them. Do I think the EU are weaponising the border? Of course. Do I think that's wrong? Of course not. Without a shadow of doubt, we would do the same in their shoes, so I see no problem with it. The sad truth of all this though is that whilst I think it can now safely be said that a significant majority of voters now realise "no deal" would be a bad outcome for Britain, nobody talks about the fact that if Mr Johnson gets a deal, that's very likely to be a close facsimile of Mrs May's deal, with or without backstop, and that this represents, by all objective assessments, a worse net position than we had before. It's not shooting yourself in the foot. It's cutting one healthy foot off and having to live with the consequences. Sure you'll get a good prosthetic in due course and learn how to walk again, but it is never going to match your real foot. Of course the Boris argument is that you will get a whizz-bang prosthetic that will enable you to leap tall buildings in one bound and so on, but I am sceptical of that.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 12:11:34 GMT
I don't think we would weaponise it given our parliament has done everything it can to compromise our position. I also think we have a greater sense of fair play than the EU.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 12:14:42 GMT
I don't think we would weaponise it given our parliament has done everything it can to compromise our position. I also think we have a greater sense of fair play than the EU. Fair play?
Pull the other one.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 12:17:12 GMT
I don't think we would weaponise it given our parliament has done everything it can to compromise our position. I also think we have a greater sense of fair play than the EU. Fair play?
Pull the other one.
Go on?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 13:32:46 GMT
Outside the law courts, I think the British sense of fair play exists primarily in our minds.
Historical exhibit A: The East India Company.
Historical exhibit B: Rhodesia
One could go on...
More recently, it would be unusual to describe the £350m on the side of the bus or the line of refugees poster as "fair play".
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Post by scouse on Sept 17, 2019 13:57:34 GMT
Outside the law courts, I think the British sense of fair play exists primarily in our minds.
Historical exhibit A: The East India Company.
Historical exhibit B: Rhodesia
One could go on...
More recently, it would be unusual to describe the £350m on the side of the bus or the line of refugees poster as "fair play". Not including the £9million leaflet telling people to vote remain in the remain spending. Shouting 'Racist' or 'They didn't know/understand what they were voting for' at leave voters. Bending Parliamentary rules or ignoring convention to advance the remain cause. 'Negotiating' a deal so piss poor that even remainers reject it.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 14:20:02 GMT
Outside the law courts, I think the British sense of fair play exists primarily in our minds.
Historical exhibit A: The East India Company.
Historical exhibit B: Rhodesia
One could go on...
More recently, it would be unusual to describe the £350m on the side of the bus or the line of refugees poster as "fair play". I was thinking of conduct within the present negotiations. But if you were to look at historical wrong doing by other European countries I'm sure you could find some dirt. Should we start with Germany or Spain?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 14:38:51 GMT
In fairness, neither of those replies negates or rebutts my point!
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 17, 2019 14:51:03 GMT
Nobody mention the Spanish Inquisition!
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 15:15:59 GMT
Nor the War!
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 16:11:48 GMT
In fairness, neither of those replies negates or rebutts my point! Well on your point of historical errors European countries have many. Right now the EU as a protectionist organisation is doing a great of harm to the development of Africa with the CAP and tariffs, I'd say that was more relevant to the people of Africa now. That Nigel Farage with UKIP created a poster to highlight migration (not refugees) is nothing to do with the negotiation with the EU; although, again the EU had a role in that. If it had taken a more sensible approach to migration then the rise of such parties, to a lesser extent in the UK and a far greater extent on the continent, may have been lessened. The migration poster, in the context you present it, suggests that represents Britain when the opposite is true. This country is head and shoulders above the rest of the EU when it comes to diversity. Just look at our cabinet (under Boris Johnson) which is the most diverse of any in Europe and compare it to the EU top table and you might here John Snow remark that he has never seen so many white people. The bus is an irrelevance.
The EU has no interest in finding a deal, it's intransigence is the very reason the Irish border is at risk. To perpetuate the notion that the EU is perfect is to ignore it's massive flaws which are as much as a reason we are were we are. To go back to your smashed plate analogy, Britain might have dropped it but it's due to it being handed over red hot. The mess is for both parties to sort out.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 16:15:06 GMT
Still all entirely irrelevant to the point about fair play.
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Post by michael on Sept 17, 2019 16:17:55 GMT
How do you think the UK has been unfair in its approach to negotiation or more so generally than the EU?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 17, 2019 17:34:53 GMT
No, I simply took issue with your assertion that we have a greater sense of fair play. Which I think is one of those misconceptions that we have about ourselves which is not widely shared outside our shores. After all, a quick glance at the internet suggests that the reputation of England as "perfidious Albion" goes all the way back to the 13th century.
To be clear, I'm not saying we are worse. I'm just not buying the assertion that we are better.
Plus I'm fairly sure Boris Johnson wouldn't know fair play if it bit him. Remember that image of him rugby-tackling a 10yr old?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:19:24 GMT
Statistics and historic melodrama can be butt cheeked to mean anything the teller wants them to mean and right now every definition under the sun has less chance than the proverbial snowball in the Sahara.
Time to cut out the nonsense and see just what happens. The hysteria project should be shut down on both sides of the argument. The empty pot making the most noise applies.
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Post by Martin on Sept 19, 2019 18:24:49 GMT
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 20, 2019 9:38:45 GMT
Nice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 9:57:47 GMT
Probably the most accurate comment on the current crop of idiots.
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