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Post by franki68 on Aug 15, 2019 9:51:15 GMT
Granted but I was applying some thought to this and noticed that when you think of someone or something you immediately mentally visualise it, but only very momentarily. And I don't think the mental visualisation on a call lasts any longer. If I am on the phone with someone, I'm not holding an image of them in my mind whilst speaking. So where is the difference between talking to someone and driving along thinking about, well, anything? That’s where it all goes theoretical , no one seems to agree why but they all agree there is a difference . |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 15, 2019 9:56:24 GMT
Granted but I was applying some thought to this and noticed that when you think of someone or something you immediately mentally visualise it, but only very momentarily. And I don't think the mental visualisation on a call lasts any longer. If I am on the phone with someone, I'm not holding an image of them in my mind whilst speaking. So where is the difference between talking to someone and driving along thinking about, well, anything? That’s where it all goes theoretical , no one seems to agree why but they all agree there is a difference . It all depends what you set as your control group. I would wager that the control group is a single driver, alert, no radio/CD, passenger distractions etc. Everything you measure outside this will show up negatively. The biggest contribution they could make to road safety is to limit all cars to no more than 100bhp, link the max speed it can do to the sat nav to prevent speeding in urban areas, and limit the maximum attainable speed to 70mph. There is absolutely no need for any privately owned vehicle to be capable of in excess of 80 mph. |
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Post by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 11:12:06 GMT
I agree that passengers can be even more distracting than having a phone conversation while driving, as can smoking/vaping, whenever you see someone veer around, it’s usually that or a phone in their hand. When I take a call in the car, I slow down and make sure I stay alert to what’s going on around me.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 15, 2019 11:13:42 GMT
That’s where it all goes theoretical , no one seems to agree why but they all agree there is a difference . It all depends what you set as your control group. I would wager that the control group is a single driver, alert, no radio/CD, passenger distractions etc. Everything you measure outside this will show up negatively. The biggest contribution they could make to road safety is to limit all cars to no more than 100bhp, link the max speed it can do to the sat nav to prevent speeding in urban areas, and limit the maximum attainable speed to 70mph. There is absolutely no need for any privately owned vehicle to be capable of in excess of 80 mph. All of which is true but rather glosses over the fact that the government's statistics on reported road casualties in the UK for the year ending June 2018 show 1,770 reported road deaths, 26,610 people killed or seriously injured, and 165,100 casualties of all severities, a decrease of 6% on the previous year.
This is also interesting:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/744077/reported-road-casualties-annual-report-2017.pdf
It shows that for 2017, fatalities broke down as 787 car occupants (44%), 470 pedestrians (26%), 349 motorcyclists (19%), 101 cyclists (6%) and 86 other (horse riders, electric scooters?) (5%).
So if you compare these to a UK population size of 65m, your chances of dying in any form of RTA are remarkably small (0.003%), and you have overall a 0.25% chance of being injured in some way in an RTA, leading me to suggest that actually our roads are much safer than the professional worriers would have you believe.
And that's without analysing what percentage of all accidents involved excessive speed.
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Post by Tim on Aug 15, 2019 12:51:41 GMT
Why pick 100BHP as the cut-off?
My Micra has 86 and it'll still do over 100mph (I suspect you'd need a long run up) and certainly can get to 80+ easily.
Even linking the car to the satnav won't necessarily help as you could still have cars having a head-on collision flat out in a 30 (i.e. closing speed of 60) that's going to cause some harm.
I feel that's more likely now than ever due to the excessive in-car distractions.
And then you can add in zombie like pedestrians with their eyes glued to their smartphone and earphones who have zero awareness of where they are stepping off the pavement and getting mown down by a passing, satnav limited to 30, motorist.
The only way to significantly reduce deaths and serious injuries, I think, would be for fully autonomous vehicles that have been tested to the nth degree before being let loose on the roads, all with the same software and operating systems so there's less chance of conflict between 2 differently manufactured ones.
In reality we need proper education, decent training of ALL road users (including pedestrians), less in-car tech and distractions and probably to remove some of the element of safety that a lot of other drivers appear to have, maybe we should go back to airbag-free steering wheels, etc (but keep ABS).
I'd be interested to see what sort of curve pedestrian deaths/serious injuries are on now too.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 15, 2019 13:08:41 GMT
In reality we need proper education, decent training of ALL road users (including pedestrians), less in-car tech and distractions and probably to remove some of the element of safety that a lot of other drivers appear to have, maybe we should go back to airbag-free steering wheels, etc (but keep ABS). Big spike in centre of steering wheel? |
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Post by johnc on Aug 15, 2019 14:34:14 GMT
I'm sorry I started this. It's thoroughly depressing to think of everything in my life being controlled and limited by the decisions of others and regardless what we think of democracy I have a snowballs chance in hell of influencing the decisions made by those "others". History books will look back at the great freedom period where people could largely go where they wanted when they wanted and how they wanted for 70 years. In a way I am glad to be getting old so that I can F off this planet in 30+ years before the lunatics finally destroy any semblance of freedom. The only proviso is it could be nearer 50 years if I live as long as my Grandma!
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Post by Tim on Aug 15, 2019 15:14:34 GMT
In reality we need proper education, decent training of ALL road users (including pedestrians), less in-car tech and distractions and probably to remove some of the element of safety that a lot of other drivers appear to have, maybe we should go back to airbag-free steering wheels, etc (but keep ABS). Big spike in centre of steering wheel? I probably wouldn't go that far but I'd suggest an end to power steering, then you'd need 2 hands on the wheel and couldn't operate your smartphone! On a more serious note I'm always astounded by proclamations from 'them' that we need to do something about casualties on the road and then I immediately pick up a car mag and nowadays most car reviews tell me that the latest iteration of something has far greater connectivity, more options for shit like the colour of the backlight on your door trims, etc, etc and how you need to dive into the menus of your touchscreen to amend even the most basic of things. Surely a sensible, basic bit of legislation would be to remove the ability of cars to be, for example, WiFi hotspots and find some way of limiting the ability of most phone functions beyond the very basic ones? |
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Post by johnc on Aug 15, 2019 15:31:11 GMT
Big spike in centre of steering wheel? I probably wouldn't go that far but I'd suggest an end to power steering, then you'd need 2 hands on the wheel and couldn't operate your smartphone! On a more serious note I'm always astounded by proclamations from 'them' that we need to do something about casualties on the road and then I immediately pick up a car mag and nowadays most car reviews tell me that the latest iteration of something has far greater connectivity, more options for shit like the colour of the backlight on your door trims, etc, etc and how you need to dive into the menus of your touchscreen to amend even the most basic of things. Surely a sensible, basic bit of legislation would be to remove the ability of cars to be, for example, WiFi hotspots and find some way of limiting the ability of most phone functions beyond the very basic ones? Then I couldn't use me Apple CarPlay! |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 15, 2019 15:36:49 GMT
Big spike in centre of steering wheel? I probably wouldn't go that far but I'd suggest an end to power steering, then you'd need 2 hands on the wheel and couldn't operate your smartphone! On a more serious note I'm always astounded by proclamations from 'them' that we need to do something about casualties on the road and then I immediately pick up a car mag and nowadays most car reviews tell me that the latest iteration of something has far greater connectivity, more options for shit like the colour of the backlight on your door trims, etc, etc and how you need to dive into the menus of your touchscreen to amend even the most basic of things. Surely a sensible, basic bit of legislation would be to remove the ability of cars to be, for example, WiFi hotspots and find some way of limiting the ability of most phone functions beyond the very basic ones? Much like car adverts are now banned from emphasising speed I expect legislation to be brought in to prevent car mags (which are advertisements, after all) publishing 0-60 times and top speeds. Photos of cars cornering hard etc will also not be allowed, static photos only. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 15:42:23 GMT
I probably wouldn't go that far but I'd suggest an end to power steering, then you'd need 2 hands on the wheel and couldn't operate your smartphone! On a more serious note I'm always astounded by proclamations from 'them' that we need to do something about casualties on the road and then I immediately pick up a car mag and nowadays most car reviews tell me that the latest iteration of something has far greater connectivity, more options for shit like the colour of the backlight on your door trims, etc, etc and how you need to dive into the menus of your touchscreen to amend even the most basic of things. Surely a sensible, basic bit of legislation would be to remove the ability of cars to be, for example, WiFi hotspots and find some way of limiting the ability of most phone functions beyond the very basic ones? Then I couldn't use me Apple CarPlay! Article in this week's Autocar about BMW drivers being pissed off when the subscription ends and the annual fee for using CarPlay begins. I think it's £85!
Followed by some marketing bollox (from someone outside BMW) saying that car manufacturers no longer sell cars, they sell 'an experience', Oh fuck off...
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Post by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 17:01:01 GMT
Charging for Apple CarPlay is taking the piss, it’s free in the Golf along with Android Auto although it only works when you plug the phone in rather than wirelessly like the BMW system. I don’t have it and won’t pay for it, as I can’t see the benefit. I use it in the Golf as it’s the easiest way to get live traffic and you get other benefits such as voice control for the Nav (so don’t have to use the touchscreen) and Spotify. But in the BMW, the navigation is better with junctions shown in the HUD and it has a Spotify app.
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Post by Alex on Aug 15, 2019 19:04:02 GMT
Charging for Apple CarPlay is taking the piss, it’s free in the Golf along with Android Auto although it only works when you plug the phone in rather than wirelessly like the BMW system. I don’t have it and won’t pay for it, as I can’t see the benefit. I use it in the Golf as it’s the easiest way to get live traffic and you get other benefits such as voice control for the Nav (so don’t have to use the touchscreen) and Spotify. But in the BMW, the navigation is better with junctions shown in the HUD and it has a Spotify app. I've been using Android auto in the car but as with all the other infotainment systems it's not easy to use effectively without removing your eyes from the road for far too long a time to be safe. I'm trying my best to limit using the touchscreen whilst driving as it's far too distracting. |
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Post by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 19:10:57 GMT
Charging for Apple CarPlay is taking the piss, it’s free in the Golf along with Android Auto although it only works when you plug the phone in rather than wirelessly like the BMW system. I don’t have it and won’t pay for it, as I can’t see the benefit. I use it in the Golf as it’s the easiest way to get live traffic and you get other benefits such as voice control for the Nav (so don’t have to use the touchscreen) and Spotify. But in the BMW, the navigation is better with junctions shown in the HUD and it has a Spotify app. I've been using Android auto in the car but as with all the other infotainment systems it's not easy to use effectively without removing your eyes from the road for far too long a time to be safe. I'm trying my best to limit using the touchscreen whilst driving as it's far too distracting. It is and I do the same. Still hate touchscreens, they’re worse than speaking on the phone, thankfully more manufacturers are adding decent voice control . I refused to say “Hey BMW” in the X5 to activate and it was quicker to press the voice control button on the steering wheel anyway. |
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Post by Alex on Aug 15, 2019 19:14:09 GMT
I've been using Android auto in the car but as with all the other infotainment systems it's not easy to use effectively without removing your eyes from the road for far too long a time to be safe. I'm trying my best to limit using the touchscreen whilst driving as it's far too distracting. It is and I do the same. Still hate touchscreens, they’re worse than speaking on the phone, thankfully more manufacturers are adding decent voice control . I refused to say “Hey BMW” in the X5 to activate and it was quicker to press the voice control button on the steering wheel anyway. I need to explore the Ioniqs voice control to see if that helps. |
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Post by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 19:17:31 GMT
It is and I do the same. Still hate touchscreens, they’re worse than speaking on the phone, thankfully more manufacturers are adding decent voice control . I refused to say “Hey BMW” in the X5 to activate and it was quicker to press the voice control button on the steering wheel anyway. I need to explore the Ioniqs voice control to see if that helps. I can’t think of much I’d need to do on the move that isn’t covered. Maybe adjusting the zoom on the map, but that’s covered by the idrive wheel and the drive modes are easy to switch between by feel (they weren’t in the X5). |
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Post by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 20:21:20 GMT
It is and I do the same. Still hate touchscreens, they’re worse than speaking on the phone, thankfully more manufacturers are adding decent voice control . I refused to say “Hey BMW” in the X5 to activate and it was quicker to press the voice control button on the steering wheel anyway. I need to explore the Ioniqs voice control to see if that helps. The Ioniq is second only to the E Class when it comes to hybrids on sale in the UK according to Autoexpress. link |
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Post by bryan on Aug 16, 2019 5:26:27 GMT
I don't blike the trend of putting everything on a touchscreen even for basics like heating control. I think it is far more dangerous and distracting than a button or knob
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Post by Ben on Aug 16, 2019 10:36:19 GMT
It is tremendously hard to find a balance to be honest. I personally find hands-free calling in the car fine, but then I generally don't like phone calls in the first place, so I get very few of them.
I definitely will not text while driving though. I think that's what they should aim for, especially with the younger generation.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Aug 16, 2019 11:34:51 GMT
I suspect texting is the bigger issue. The amount of times I see people with their head down at teaffic lights or in slow traffic is astounding. And then there are numerous times I follow cars or vans which are making constant, small but sharp changes to their direction. That, to me, is a dead giveaway the driver is faffing with something, most likely their mobile phone. I'd say education for drivers clearly hasn't worked, nor does the prospect of 6 points and a 200 quid fine. People just cannot leave their phones alone. Maybe a ban should be the first option the courts have.
From a policing perspective, in my day to day role, it is difficult to spot, mostly because I'm in a bright, liveried police car. If the car is going the opposite direction, when it is easiest to see a driver on the phone, there are considerable issues with being able to turn round in traffic and then being able to catch up with the other vehicle, even with blue lights. And all this is assuming that there are resources available to spend several hours targetting drivers. I have significantly more pressing matters to deal with, and I would be criticised by my supervisors for neglecting those things to target drivers. I could do the odd, limited bit of enforcement, but it would be very limited.
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Post by PG on Aug 16, 2019 12:10:39 GMT
I suspect texting is the bigger issue.. +1. And all the other non-verbal apps. Anybody under [insert an age where you feel people are hugely younger than you] hardly seem to use a phone for actually speaking to anybody now. Text, WhatsApp, Instagram, others I can't remember etc etc. Going back to the OP re hands-free, for about 10 years from 2000 I used to make an awful lot of calls in the car - both to and from work as I had over an hour commute and Europe started calling from 8am and calls with the Californian HQ could never start before 4pm. I did find that using an earpiece (in one ear) rather than hands free made the call much easier to do without distraction. Somehow as the person was speaking right into one of your ears it was all more direct. Weird, but that was how I found it. Now I only make short calls using hands free, but I still think a ban on that is a step too far. As above, concentrate on texting as the main safety issue. Interestingly today, statistics were released on drug deaths in the UK. Total deaths from "drug poisoning" last year were 4,359. That includes mis-use of prescription drugs. Illegal drugs account for 2,917 of those deaths (if I read the badly written report correctly). Total road deaths in 2018? 1,770. There were 25,000 seriously injured in RTA's, so that needs to be take tito account, but I can't find how many people had to go to hospital due to drug issues for comparison. |
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 16, 2019 14:29:20 GMT
I suspect texting is the bigger issue. The amount of times I see people with their head down at teaffic lights or in slow traffic is astounding. You may have found a new market here - traffic lights that make you a up of tea whilst you wait for them to change ?? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2019 13:00:45 GMT
Shirley a VW franchise........
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 21, 2019 7:16:33 GMT
From T-Roc to T-Cup ?? Or T-Up ??
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Post by grampa on Aug 21, 2019 9:20:39 GMT
I think distraction whilst driving is a very individual thing - most of us are capable of doing a couple of tasks at a time, it's which task you give priority to which is key - I'm with John C here - I've never felt distracted from my driving whilst talking on the phone any more than talking to a passenger in the car - and I certainly don't conjure up an image of the person I'm speaking to. Plus it's very hypocritical of the police to say it is - there are plenty of TV shows that show a police driver talking to HQ whilst driving (doesn't make a difference if it's via radio or phone) - I asked a policeman if they have any special training to talk over the radio and drive at the same time - he advised no (that was a few years ago so might have changed now).
My wife is more distracted by driving past a dress shop than a conversation in the car! - I'm more distracted by seeing a nice classic, a hot rod or a supercar than I am by a conversation whilst driving.
These days, it's very irrelevant to me, but when I was driving a lot in the course of my job, communication was essential to save a lot a wasted time/mileage for the very reasons John mentioned.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 21, 2019 9:38:06 GMT
... and how will this be enforced?
OK in the case of an accident then the Police will no doubt be given draconian powers to check if you were on a call at the time but otherwise you could be stopped for singing along to the radio, talking to yourself out aloud, just exclaiming in reaction to something you have seen etc etc
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 10:01:41 GMT
".....OK in the case of an accident then the Police will no doubt be given draconian powers to check if you were on a call at the time.....".
Which is probably ALL they want tbh. Legislators that is.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Aug 21, 2019 10:02:26 GMT
I think distraction whilst driving is a very individual thing - most of us are capable of doing a couple of tasks at a time, it's which task you give priority to which is key - I'm with John C here - I've never felt distracted from my driving whilst talking on the phone any more than talking to a passenger in the car - and I certainly don't conjure up an image of the person I'm speaking to. Plus it's very hypocritical of the police to say it is - there are plenty of TV shows that show a police driver talking to HQ whilst driving (doesn't make a difference if it's via radio or phone) - I asked a policeman if they have any special training to talk over the radio and drive at the same time - he advised no (that was a few years ago so might have changed now). My wife is more distracted by driving past a dress shop than a conversation in the car! - I'm more distracted by seeing a nice classic, a hot rod or a supercar than I am by a conversation whilst driving. These days, it's very irrelevant to me, but when I was driving a lot in the course of my job, communication was essential to save a lot a wasted time/mileage for the very reasons John mentioned. Apparently our radios are not exempt from mobile phone legislation. Two way radios are but police (and fire and ambulance) radios are not. This is, apparently, because they have the capability of being used as a phone as well as a radio but are still caught by the legislation if only being used as a radio. It then gets even more complex due to radio frequency ranges, apparently. So, a taxi driver can natter all day on his two way radio but a police officer or paramedic using their Airwave handset in two way radio mode is illegal. Yet the conversation is a short, brief one, mostly "recieved" or "go ahead" type phrases, not a protracted phone conversation. Odd. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 21, 2019 10:21:59 GMT
I think distraction whilst driving is a very individual thing - most of us are capable of doing a couple of tasks at a time, it's which task you give priority to which is key - I'm with John C here - I've never felt distracted from my driving whilst talking on the phone any more than talking to a passenger in the car - and I certainly don't conjure up an image of the person I'm speaking to. Plus it's very hypocritical of the police to say it is - there are plenty of TV shows that show a police driver talking to HQ whilst driving (doesn't make a difference if it's via radio or phone) - I asked a policeman if they have any special training to talk over the radio and drive at the same time - he advised no (that was a few years ago so might have changed now). My wife is more distracted by driving past a dress shop than a conversation in the car! - I'm more distracted by seeing a nice classic, a hot rod or a supercar than I am by a conversation whilst driving. These days, it's very irrelevant to me, but when I was driving a lot in the course of my job, communication was essential to save a lot a wasted time/mileage for the very reasons John mentioned. Apparently our radios are not exempt from mobile phone legislation. Two way radios are but police (and fire and ambulance) radios are not. This is, apparently, because they have the capability of being used as a phone as well as a radio but are still caught by the legislation if only being used as a radio. It then gets even more complex due to radio frequency ranges, apparently. So, a taxi driver can natter all day on his two way radio but a police officer or paramedic using their Airwave handset in two way radio mode is illegal. Yet the conversation is a short, brief one, mostly "recieved" or "go ahead" type phrases, not a protracted phone conversation. Odd. To be fair I'm not worried about that taxi driver - all they say is a quick "I'm just around the corner" and hang up. |
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Post by grampa on Aug 30, 2019 11:50:58 GMT
Apparently our radios are not exempt from mobile phone legislation. Two way radios are but police (and fire and ambulance) radios are not. This is, apparently, because they have the capability of being used as a phone as well as a radio but are still caught by the legislation if only being used as a radio. It then gets even more complex due to radio frequency ranges, apparently. So, a taxi driver can natter all day on his two way radio but a police officer or paramedic using their Airwave handset in two way radio mode is illegal. Yet the conversation is a short, brief one, mostly "recieved" or "go ahead" type phrases, not a protracted phone conversation. Odd. To be fair I'm not worried about that taxi driver - all they say is a quick "I'm just around the corner" and hang up. In a taxi - the driver talking on the radio is the last thing I'm worried about - it's the 50 in a thirty, the bad gear changes, the poor breaking control, the sitting too close to the wheel etc etc that concerns me! |
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