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Post by johnc on Aug 13, 2019 13:31:09 GMT
I don't know if any of you saw this on BBC Breakfast this morning or in the press: www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/12/phone-calls-should-banned-cars-say-mps-hands-free-use-just-likely/but a group of MPs want all mobile use within a car banned completely. I certainly try to keep my mobile use to a minimum in the car (and all of it hands free) but I think a total ban is complete overkill. I reckon a family argument in the car is more dangerous than almost anything else and a complete ban is a massive retrograde step which could have some significant financial impact to the country. Simple things like not being able to communicate with a taxi driver who is picking you up at the airport, a delivery driver who is lost, telling a salesman his appointment 200 miles away is cancelled or even telling the wife you are an hour from home. Life without some form of in car communication just seems like a huge step backwards. I'm not saying that using mobiles (even hands free) is not a distraction but is it any more of a distraction than being lost, having something on the radio which is annoying you, having children in the car or mulling over an earlier disagreement etc etc etc. I think the nanny state is getting far too powerful: when we are all in driverless pods are we going to be force fed Government propaganda and be denied the radio? I wonder if the MP's who came to this conclusion are all over 70 and have no idea what a smart phone is!
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 13, 2019 13:35:09 GMT
I'm not saying that using mobiles (even hands free) is not a distraction but is it any more of a distraction than being lost, having something on the radio which is annoying you, having children in the car or mulling over an earlier disagreement etc etc etc. I think the nanny state is getting far too powerful: when we are all in driverless pods are we going to be force fed Government propaganda and be denied the radio? Yeah, I saw it - total bollocks. If they don't want drivers distracted lock us in little soundproof cabins behind the wheel, with no interaction with passengers, radio, CD etc. In fact, ban parents transporting kids in the back seat as there's nothing more distracting than a couple of fighting kids back there.
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Post by Tim on Aug 13, 2019 14:26:19 GMT
It is a clear step too far but I understand the sentiment.
If you watch cars coming the opposite direction (when you're not driving yourself, obviously) it is a huge concern how many other road users are looking down inside the car. I know this has always happened but its to a far greater extent nowadays and I can only think a lot of it is phone usage.
However, just as distracting is the trend towards touchscreens, for even the most basic functions, replacing physical buttons so when are they proposing to legislate for that?
An all too obvious solution would be to encourage the police to find an easy way to pull over more phone users, not an impossible task as we've covered before on a number of occasions.
That might even be a way to finance Boris' extra 20k police.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 13, 2019 14:34:05 GMT
It is a clear step too far but I understand the sentiment. If you watch cars coming the opposite direction (when you're not driving yourself, obviously) it is a huge concern how many other road users are looking down inside the car. I know this has always happened but its to a far greater extent nowadays and I can only think a lot of it is phone usage. However, just as distracting is the trend towards touchscreens, for even the most basic functions, replacing physical buttons so when are they proposing to legislate for that? An all too obvious solution would be to encourage the police to find an easy way to pull over more phone users, not an impossible task as we've covered before on a number of occasions. That might even be a way to finance Boris' extra 20k police. I don't know how they would police a hands free ban anyway. How would anyone watching know if you were on the phone, singing along to the radio, or talking to yourself or a passenger? Hell, I talk to the dog when he's in the back of the car.
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Post by PG on Aug 13, 2019 15:02:30 GMT
Totally agree - it is an over the top reaction. Politicians grandstanding and confusing activity with action.
I guess the only way that they would ever be able to police this is if you have an accident and your phone shows that it was on a call you'll be done. However, when the first test case shows that the call went to messaging or that you let it ring unanswered, the law will effectively become unenforceable. Just like so many other ridiculous laws.
In car communication can be lifesaving too - like calling an ambulance if you see an accident or the police of you see something suspicious. Imagine the headline - "man stops car and gets out to make call to police that mad axe-murderer is on the loose and promptly gets killed by said axe murderer".
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 13, 2019 16:41:29 GMT
I imagine we are all of the same view.
I'm totally in agreement with a ban on holding a phone or texting while driving. I had a hands-free phone kit in my Rover 100 as long ago as 1997!
It is really no different to having a conversation with a passenger, and considerably less distracting than driving with small children in the car, which so far as I guess, no-one is considering banning.
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 13, 2019 20:18:41 GMT
Yes. What's worrying is the absence of common sense from those proposing such a ban.
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Post by PG on Aug 14, 2019 7:44:34 GMT
Yes. What's worrying is the absence of common sense from those proposing such a ban. These are politicians we are talking about. Common sense is not a concept they understand, let alone have any of.
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Post by franki68 on Aug 14, 2019 8:33:05 GMT
I’ve always argued there is no difference between talking to someone in the car and using hands free on your phone ,but I have to say I have changed my mind . Listening to some of the experts who say it is different and I have to agree ,there is a mental disconnect from your surroundings when talking on the phone hands free which you don’t experience talking to someone in the car.
I don’t think it more distracting than say having screaming kids in the car ,but there is a difference .
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Post by alf on Aug 14, 2019 8:49:43 GMT
I can see both sides of it, but I would prefer it if we were treated like grown ups and allowed to make our own choices. I am careful about when I make/take hands free calls in the car, and in my job I'm regularly subjected to videos about what happens when people text and drive - some horrific (and real, not acted) - so I never ever touch my phone when driving. There is the odd time when I'm on the phone, trying to read a road sign, dealing with heavy traffic, and some dozy muppet is stepping into the road ahead of me (usually on their phone) when I realise I have got the balance wrong. For me this is nowhere near as distracting as attempting to read - let alone write - a text message - at least all the visual info is going in. It's my brain's job to sort out the priorities - generally that means I stop talking/listening and just drive for a few seconds. Not ideal, but no different to dealing with Jeremy Corbyn speaking on the radio, kids screaming in the back, an argument with a partner, etc. With their usual journalistic credibility the BBC were playing a piece all day yesterday on Radio 1 about this, concluding with someone who had lost a brother to someone who was driving while ................. Texting. So nothing to do with the topic on hand then
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 8:58:10 GMT
I very occasionally take calls on longer journeys, but even then take the view that unless it's important it can wait until I stop. You could argue that the more important the call, the more likely it is to distract I suppose. If there is evidence to support the view that hands free usage contributes to accidents, I'm not too averse to a ban. If, that is. I suspect the bigger issue is that people seem to relegate the task of driving to secondary on so many occasions, and I suspect many phone users very much do this.
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Post by LandieMark on Aug 14, 2019 9:05:32 GMT
I'd love to know how they would enforce this. If they stop you and find your phone turned on, you get the fine and points. What about using it to stream music or for navigation? Ridiculous.
I do think you get distracted by calls and I don't like taking them and mostly I ignore incoming calls while driving, unless it is from family or from the appointment I may be going to.
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Post by PetrolEd on Aug 14, 2019 9:32:21 GMT
Its certainly a hard balancing act. Who gets to decide what's dangerous and what's acceptable. A Tesla with just a tablet sat in the dash has little difference in my opinion to a smartphone. Why its therefore unacceptable to start using waze or spotify on your phone but ok on your cars infotainment I don't know
Maybe the EU should start putting legislation in place to work with manufacturers, so that more complex systems aren't becoming dangerous. Having to go into multiple screens just to turn on heated seats or change the temp seems daft.
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Post by Tim on Aug 14, 2019 9:40:06 GMT
I’ve always argued there is no difference between talking to someone in the car and using hands free on your phone ,but I have to say I have changed my mind . Listening to some of the experts who say it is different and I have to agree ,there is a mental disconnect from your surroundings when talking on the phone hands free which you don’t experience talking to someone in the car. I don’t think it more distracting than say having screaming kids in the car ,but there is a difference . I agree with this, I've made a few short calls from the car but there is a clear difference to chatting to a passenger and I'm not comfortable doing it.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 14, 2019 9:48:13 GMT
I’m not convinced of the difference myself.
That said, when in the car I only use the phone if necessary and for short periods. I don’t chat on the phone whilst driving.
My wife on the other hand treats her car as a phone booth and I’ve criticised her a number of times for that. But her riposte is that she’s never had an accident.
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Post by Tim on Aug 14, 2019 9:59:33 GMT
My calls have exclusively been to my mum (to confirm whether she needs bananas from Tesco!) and I'm never on the phone to her for more than about 30 seconds. I think that if anything getting to the point of dialling the call is the most distracting part but I do feel as if I pay more attention to the phone conversation than I would to an in-car chat.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 14, 2019 10:38:11 GMT
I’ve always argued there is no difference between talking to someone in the car and using hands free on your phone ,but I have to say I have changed my mind . Listening to some of the experts who say it is different and I have to agree ,there is a mental disconnect from your surroundings when talking on the phone hands free which you don’t experience talking to someone in the car. I don’t think it more distracting than say having screaming kids in the car ,but there is a difference . I agree with this, I've made a few short calls from the car but there is a clear difference to chatting to a passenger and I'm not comfortable doing it. I don't agree with this. I regularly have colleagues and clients in the car with me and chatting to them about jobs or issues on a journey is far more distracting than having a 5 min conversation on the hands free when going down the motorway.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 14, 2019 11:05:32 GMT
This ^^
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Post by franki68 on Aug 14, 2019 11:19:59 GMT
I would suggest that implies different people have different skills when it comes to this sort of thing ,
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Post by Tim on Aug 14, 2019 12:02:33 GMT
I would suggest that implies different people have different skills when it comes to this sort of thing , Not really, Bob's conversations sound as if they require some level of detailed thought whereas my car journeys are always with friends and family and therefore are pretty straightforward.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 14, 2019 12:27:02 GMT
I would suggest that implies different people have different skills when it comes to this sort of thing , It would suggest to me that different conversations require different levels of thought. I heard one pro-ban talking head say that it was different having a conversation with a passenger as opposed to a telephone call as the passenger could see when the driver needed to concentrate and stop talking. As if passengers pay anywhere near the same level of attention to the road they're being driven down as the driver - and what about those in the back? What about those women who insist that if they're having a conversation with someone sitting next to them they must turn their head and make eye contact regularly, taking their eyes off the road?
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Post by Alex on Aug 14, 2019 12:36:21 GMT
I blogged about this last year when the law changed to 6 points for using a handheld phone. Many people don't realise you can already get in trouble for making hands free calls. A passing police officer can pull you over and issue a fixed penalty of 3 points and £100 fine for driving without due care and attention. Some of you will read that and argue that it's only if you are distracted but that is of course the officers discretion not yours. If you feel you are a skilled driver that can make calls without appearing distracted to a passing police officer then that is your look out. Also note that If you are involved in an accident the police will look at your phone records and even if you were using hands free at the time, if you were on the phone at the time of the accident or leading up to it, you stand a very high chance of being prosecuted irregardless of whether you were at fault for the accident or not. When I went on an awareness course a couple of years back most the other course delegates had been pulled over whilst using a hands free phone.
I've worked with customers who have staff that are required to make calls for work (such as sales reps) and who do so from their car between meetings. Often this is deemed acceptable but I beg to differ and in my opinion discussing business and having to recall product details whilst negotiating unfamiliar roads is dangerous and a risk to the business if their staff are being encouraged to do this.
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Post by franki68 on Aug 14, 2019 13:51:41 GMT
I would suggest that implies different people have different skills when it comes to this sort of thing , It would suggest to me that different conversations require different levels of thought. I heard one pro-ban talking head say that it was different having a conversation with a passenger as opposed to a telephone call as the passenger could see when the driver needed to concentrate and stop talking. As if passengers pay anywhere near the same level of attention to the road they're being driven down as the driver - and what about those in the back? What about those women who insist that if they're having a conversation with someone sitting next to them they must turn their head and make eye contact regularly, taking their eyes off the road? The research as I understand it is that if using hands free you are mentally visualising the person you are talking to and mentally visualising other aspects of the conversation. ,something you do not do to the same extent of the person is in the vehicle with you. As I said I’m not convinced it’s more distracting than having screaming kids in the back ,and to be honest it is something I have realised in the last 3 months but it does affect you and from what I understand there is no research that shows otherwise . I have found no difference whatever the subject matter .
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 14, 2019 14:48:20 GMT
I'm pretty certain I do not mentally visualise people I am talking to on the phone, or at the very least not to any great extent. That would seem very odd.
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Post by johnc on Aug 14, 2019 18:09:40 GMT
If you are involved in an accident the police will look at your phone records and even if you were using hands free at the time, if you were on the phone at the time of the accident or leading up to it, you stand a very high chance of being prosecuted irregardless of whether you were at fault for the accident or not. That seems like a massive leap of illogical thinking to tie the accident to the use of the phone and to apportion blame without plenty of corroborating evidence.
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Post by Stuntman on Aug 14, 2019 19:54:44 GMT
I agree with Racing and John's last two posts above. I very rarely take calls when I'm driving and almost never make them.
Like Racing, I don't visualise the other person when talking to them on the phone. I think I'm good at compartmentalising mentally, and fairly sure that it does not significantly affect my ability to drive at the same time. And it's not as if I'll be 'making progress' when I'm on the phone in the same way as I may occasionally choose to do otherwise.
Anyhow. What will be, will be.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 14, 2019 20:36:16 GMT
I'm sure that some people can speak on calls hands-free OK but I know that it does affect my judgement/concentration, so I try never to make any calls when in the car, and only answer calls that I am expecting.... I usually tell callers that I am driving but am hands-free, and usually I have to ask them to repeat something as I try to place concentration on the road above listening to the phone call.
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Post by Alex on Aug 14, 2019 21:12:15 GMT
If you are involved in an accident the police will look at your phone records and even if you were using hands free at the time, if you were on the phone at the time of the accident or leading up to it, you stand a very high chance of being prosecuted irregardless of whether you were at fault for the accident or not. That seems like a massive leap of illogical thinking to tie the accident to the use of the phone and to apportion blame without plenty of corroborating evidence. The rule of corroboration may mean this is different in Scotland but it is applied in England.
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Post by franki68 on Aug 15, 2019 8:27:38 GMT
I'm pretty certain I do not mentally visualise people I am talking to on the phone, or at the very least not to any great extent. That would seem very odd. Isn’t that one of the points of the all the research ,that you are unaware of what you are doing ? People in tests thought there was no difference in their performance and felt no difference in their mental process but the results proved something is going on. There are all sorts of theories why you are affected but regardless of the theories all tests that I have seen show you have reduced reaction times and far less awareness of things around you when on a call .
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 15, 2019 9:23:08 GMT
Granted but I was applying some thought to this and noticed that when you think of someone or something you immediately mentally visualise it, but only very momentarily. And I don't think the mental visualisation on a call lasts any longer. If I am on the phone with someone, I'm not holding an image of them in my mind whilst speaking.
So where is the difference between talking to someone and driving along thinking about, well, anything?
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