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The EU
May 8, 2017 17:03:26 GMT
Post by michael on May 8, 2017 17:03:26 GMT
Most of the people I know who voted leave did so on grounds of immigration. That doesn't make them racist, but for many the freedom of movement ideology doesn't work. It seems a third of French and nearly half of Austrian voters subscribe to that view, too. It is damning that the EU will not contemplate reform here. Had they done so when Cameron went to negotiate I think we'd still be in.
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The EU
May 8, 2017 17:53:43 GMT
Post by racingteatray on May 8, 2017 17:53:43 GMT
And why are they so worked up about immigration? Heaven forbid that it might be because every morning over their branflakes or fry-up, the Daily Mail told them that immigration was the source of many, if not all, woes... It is in the nature of most to be suspicious of the new or unknown, presumably because evolution favours a degree of caution in that respect, and I do not particularly blame people for having their innate suspicions stoked up by a rabid media. But by God do I hold the media accountable for a great evil committed here.
The lack of historical perspective is also astounding. I'm not one for hand-wringing over spilt milk and the like, but given we are a nation that built much of its wealth and prosperity on its ability to move largely unfettered into and across other people's lands, often by force, it's hard to ignore the acute irony that we should be the ones to be apparently so extremely fussed about the ability of others to move into and across our land not by force.
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The EU
May 8, 2017 19:59:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 19:59:29 GMT
There are two sides to ANY campaign/deception call it what you will. I hope what comes out of this is that France and Germany stop leading the EU into the quagmire of a large homogenised NATION and return it to a set of nations who merely trade together as a group. What is wrong with NATO? Why are they so keen to produce EU military formations? Why are they so keen to make an example of the UK? Why are remoaners so scare mongering? Why do remoaners try to talk down their noses and belittle leave voters? I was NOT influenced by fake news or propaganda, I made my mind up after seeing how the EU has been manipulated over many years, I do not know anyone who was so influenced. In a time when the information super highway is so accessible it is a no brainer that there will be some kind of disinformation, it is nothing really new just the bulk has increased. NO political party or interest group that I can see has EVER told the truth full fat, they ALL cherry picks aspects to lead on, for example the immigration targets by the Tory's which has never been met yet they talk about maintaining the policy like it was a success and hope nobody fact checks you. I think Boris dropped out of the leadership battle in order to be there in the posh seats when May jumps ship and it looks like it will pay pout for him. As for the French president, he will have his own problems trying to force through policies he failed to implement when he was a minister and if he does, who will pick up the pieces? 30% of the French electorate vote for the FN which has to be a record and if he does dump on the working class French citizen he will be on a sticky wicket to a good hiding for nothing. In this little part of England where I live there is a Spanish couple and a British senior citizen who lived in France for thirty years, both houses claim the EU is corrupt and on the way to being in terminal decline, independently. Reiteration time, for me, had the EU not been such a bunch of parasites and had not the two (In particular) nations pushed Shengen to the point that it could not take account of border weakness in the guise of uncontrolled immigration AND terrorism (Yes I know some were home grown but NOT ALL), I would have voted remain. It is a simple equation for me, they are NOT going to change and I worry where the EU is heading. In case it has passed notice, British formations have already exercised in Poland and with the entry of the Ukraine into the EU, were expecting to exercise there too. My old regiment, or what they have become, took part and there were warning orders (Advanced warning) sent out to some members of the regiment for recce trips to the Ukraine, this did not happen because Russia went and put the Ukraine on the naughty step. The Russians are seriously paranoid about nations in the west and some might say for good reason, I think the Germans and the French managed to kill their share of Russians in the past. Don't listen to me though, I am just fake news, obviously. I am so glad we do not take things too seriously here or I might get on the next boat to China, oh, hang on.......
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The EU
May 8, 2017 20:34:44 GMT
Post by racingteatray on May 8, 2017 20:34:44 GMT
Lucky you. It's a very rare bird indeed who is so independently-minded that he isn't influenced at all by what they see/hear/read, even if they think they aren't.
So, out of curiosity, how did you get to see "how the EU has been manipulated over many years"? What were your sources of information?
Because I don't know about you, but although I've lived in the UK, continental Europe and in Russia, and spent 16 years working with European law, I still reckon most of what I know about the way Europe works politically, and what goes on between member states, inevitably comes from what I have seen, heard and read.
And just to be clear, I am not a particular fan of the EU. But despite trying, I doubt I will ever work out what exactly is supposed to be so heinous about it that is specific to the EU. Brexit simply doesn't make any logical sense to me at any level and that is why I object to it.
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The EU
May 8, 2017 21:05:58 GMT
Post by Alex on May 8, 2017 21:05:58 GMT
Worth reading but it does make for somewhat disturbing thoughts of where this is leading us and how easily the public seem to have been fooled into jumping off the cliff into the perilous Brexit seas. I'd love to be able to turn this around by voting out the Tories in our constituency but there bugger all chance of that happening in this safe seat.
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The EU
May 8, 2017 21:31:10 GMT
Post by Boxer6 on May 8, 2017 21:31:10 GMT
Worth reading but it does make for somewhat disturbing thoughts of where this is leading us and how easily the public seem to have been fooled into jumping off the cliff into the perilous Brexit seas. I'd love to be able to turn this around by voting out the Tories in our constituency but there bugger all chance of that happening in this safe seat. I think it's fairly safe to say that, given enough "spin" about a topic, people will believe what they see/hear if it's viewed/heard often enough. AKA . . propaganda.
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The EU
May 8, 2017 21:48:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 21:48:38 GMT
Lucky you. It's a very rare bird indeed who is so independently-minded that he isn't influenced at all by what they see/hear/read, even if they think they aren't. So, out of curiosity, how did you get to see "how the EU has been manipulated over many years"? What were your sources of information? Because I don't know about you, but although I've lived in the UK, continental Europe and in Russia, and spent 16 years working with European law, I still reckon most of what I know about the way Europe works politically, and what goes on between member states, inevitably comes from what I have seen, heard and read. And just to be clear, I am not a particular fan of the EU. But despite trying, I doubt I will ever work out what exactly is supposed to be so heinous about it that is specific to the EU. Brexit simply doesn't make any logical sense to me at any level and that is why I object to it. I have never believed anything neither one way or the other 100%, taking into consideration the things that the EU decided to waste money on like "can it be a cucumber if it is not bent"? What kinds of cheese can be protected and not? Not to mention the really early ones like butter mountains etc to keep prices high by stockpiling produce etc. There are many years of dodgy decisions and waste of money on a monumental scale. EU ministers on huge salaries and expenses up the yazoo, moving the EU parliament twice a year between Brussels and Strassbourg, should I go on?
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The EU
May 8, 2017 22:29:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by racingteatray on May 8, 2017 22:29:22 GMT
You do know that Boris famously made a lot of that nonsense up? Unfortunately of course mud sticks, especially when it is memorably silly and panders to people's existing prejudices.
And where did you hear about bent cucumbers and whatnot...?
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The EU
May 9, 2017 7:45:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 7:45:47 GMT
And where did you hear about bent cucumbers and whatnot...? The regulation on cucumbers has been dropped: cucumbers
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The EU
May 9, 2017 8:25:40 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 9, 2017 8:25:40 GMT
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The EU
May 9, 2017 9:28:46 GMT
Post by Tim on May 9, 2017 9:28:46 GMT
On the subject of immigration I'm mightily confused.
Clearly it was a big issue in the referendum and a lot of the Brexiteers said that we could take back control (!) and reduce it to an insignificant level.
The Tories are, again, going to put in their manifesto that they want it to be in the tens of thousands (to my mind that means 3 or 4 tens of thousands).
However I saw a chart yesterday that showed immigration over the last few years has been fairly consistent at the 500-600k level and around half of these are from non-EU countries.
So why, with a Tory led Government since 2010, haven't they done anything about this amazing stat, why does anyone think that anything can be done about it (even if we stop EU citizens coming in the implication is that we'll still have 300k from overseas) and finally, why is the media in general not pointing at that stat, looking at the claims or manifesto and loudly querying the intention to cut immigration so severely?
I know the answer to these questions but it's surely a sign of misinformation being let through by a sympathetic media that, sadly, appears to be controlled in most cases by non-resident, extremely wealthy individuals.
This is the source of info for a depressing number of people.
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The EU
May 9, 2017 10:39:24 GMT
Post by michael on May 9, 2017 10:39:24 GMT
It's only been a tory government since 2015, the coalition will have prevented any effort to curb migrations. I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct on this so I'm ready to be told to shut-up but I think another element is the European courts ruling of a right to a family life allowing people to be brought over for non European countries but affected by the EU if that makes sense.
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The EU
May 10, 2017 14:14:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 14:14:45 GMT
Has anyone seen the beeb news report on eastern European women being sold to Asians who want to apply to live in the UK? Another reason NOT to be in the EU.
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The EU
May 10, 2017 14:38:29 GMT
Post by michael on May 10, 2017 14:38:29 GMT
Do you get a discount on Bacofoil?
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The EU
May 10, 2017 16:02:24 GMT
Post by racingteatray on May 10, 2017 16:02:24 GMT
Has anyone seen the beeb news report on eastern European women being sold to Asians who want to apply to live in the UK? Another reason NOT to be in the EU. You can't be serious that this is a major problem for the UK economy or UK voters.
I'd wager it was a major problem for the poor women involved but I can't believe the numbers involved are problematic for us at a national level.
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The EU
May 10, 2017 16:12:20 GMT
Post by Big Blue on May 10, 2017 16:12:20 GMT
Can we stop with this immigration bollocks? There's always been immigration into the UK, whether we've been in the EU or not. The Normans came over, I've got A type blood and green eyes so guessing some Viking types have had a hand in there; I don't imagine that the Romans kept their dicks to themselves during their stop over and various colonials have come here at their own will or otherwise over the years.
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The EU
May 10, 2017 17:50:21 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 10, 2017 17:50:21 GMT
Sensible immigration is beneficial to a country but using mass immigration as a driver of economic growth can only lead to social problems. Does anyone else think this small, densely populated country can continue to import a town the equivalent size of Newcastle every year (circa 350,000), or the entire population of Ireland every 12 years without the already stretched health system, school system and housing situation reaching breaking point?
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The EU
May 11, 2017 7:31:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 7:31:08 GMT
Sensible immigration is beneficial to a country but using mass immigration as a driver of economic growth can only lead to social problems. Does anyone else think this small, densely populated country can continue to import a town the equivalent size of Newcastle every year (circa 350,000), or the entire population of Ireland every 12 years without the already stretched health system, school system and housing situation reaching breaking point? We could always look to balance the books, say by exporting Middlesborough?
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The EU
May 11, 2017 9:11:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 9:11:06 GMT
Sensible immigration is beneficial to a country but using mass immigration as a driver of economic growth can only lead to social problems. Does anyone else think this small, densely populated country can continue to import a town the equivalent size of Newcastle every year (circa 350,000), or the entire population of Ireland every 12 years without the already stretched health system, school system and housing situation reaching breaking point? We could always look to balance the books, say by exporting Middlesborough? Not sure anyone would accept it, nor Battersea. Tin foil, no use for it, a colander is a much better bet as it is hair conditioned. Not suggesting the issue in the beeb is a major problem either , just that it is another way for the people smugglers to get their victims into this country which seems to be a location of choice for many. I would like to see loopholes like this closed and people smugglers treated more aggressively, preferably terminally.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 9:23:13 GMT
Post by racingteatray on May 11, 2017 9:23:13 GMT
It's a location of choice because of the English language and a generous welfare safety net that extends to the recently arrived. The first we will never be able to do anything about. The latter is tricky to fix.
I actually did agree with the always deliberately controversial "Viewsnight" slot on Newsnight last night, where the speaker pointed out (a) that apparently 10% of the UK's residential housing stock is now owned by non-residents (no doubt higher than that in central London) and (b) that in, for example, Switzerland, there are quite severe restrictions on the ability of foreigners (and particularly non-resident foreigners) to buy property in Switzerland. She was suggesting the UK look to introduce a similar system.
This makes sense to me. Of course, again, this would be enormously tricky to achieve without sparking a collapse in UK/London housing prices that would be damaging to the economy (because whilst it would make housing more affordable for those yet to acquire, it risks plunging many who did already manage to scrimp and save to buy a house into negative equity).
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The EU
May 11, 2017 11:33:25 GMT
Post by grampa on May 11, 2017 11:33:25 GMT
There are many years of dodgy decisions and waste of money on a monumental scale. EU ministers on huge salaries and expenses up the yazoo, moving the EU parliament twice a year between Brussels and Strassbourg, should I go on? I thought the move between Brussels and Strasbourg was a once a month thing, not a twice a year thing - this to me is one of the craziest wastes of money with the EU - like so many things that start for good reason, people start to take the piss, presumably either to line their own pockets or protect a job that doesn't really need doing and it then fuels the fire for those who want to be rid of such organisations - trade unions with all the silly strikes of the 70's being another good example. There should be stronger leadership with people who are prepared to stand up and say, "that's really stupid, we're not going to do that because it will lead to our downfall."
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The EU
May 11, 2017 11:45:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 11:45:38 GMT
I agree with you there, it must be done though and while I am not convinced the issue is just the Russian emigre contingent as some sources state it is a nettle that must be grasped before it gets too bad. People like yourself are in the best position to come up with the solution.
I probably come across as a total git as far as the EU is concerned but the fact is I would have liked the thing to evolve in a more trading group manner because THAT is what we signed up for and in international law there must be some kind of out for us there because the evolution has gone too far and as far as the whole Shengen thing goes, well it seems that should be rethought and buying off Turkey and Greece is a fail as far as policies go. As far as the whole EU nation etc goes, what will happen to the standing army when we are out and how long before the Russians get REALLY pissed and do something non reversible?
I blame people like JC Joker, these people are totally unwavering in their determination to ensure the growth of an EU state and that borders on the fourth Reich. Conspiracy schmiracy, what is there to gain from an EU NATION? BTW, with countries like Germany not paying their way in NATO, how are they going to manage without NATO? Creating a dedicated EU military will cost huge amounts of dosh and they cannot afford to do the one so how can they pay for both? I really do not take this as seriously as it reads, I just have huge reservations and distrust of what is happening and has happened in Europe.
As for the housing in London in particular, my brother was homeless and had kids in tow, he was left in emergency accommodation for two years while uncontrolled and illegal immigrants got priority, there were whole council estates were given over to these non nationals. How are the poorer people in the capital supposed to react? Also, consider the impact of HS2 on homes up and down the route, there has already been a report on how homes newly completed at the Birmingham end have had notice of compulsary purchase placed on them. I hate my new keyboard btw, it is smaller and takes ten times as long to get anything done, blasted muscle memory......
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The EU
May 11, 2017 11:48:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 11:48:08 GMT
There are many years of dodgy decisions and waste of money on a monumental scale. EU ministers on huge salaries and expenses up the yazoo, moving the EU parliament twice a year between Brussels and Strassbourg, should I go on? I thought the move between Brussels and Strasbourg was a once a month thing, not a twice a year thing - this to me is one of the craziest wastes of money with the EU - like so many things that start for good reason, people start to take the piss, presumably either to line their own pockets or protect a job that doesn't really need doing and it then fuels the fire for those who want to be rid of such organisations - trade unions with all the silly strikes of the 70's being another good example. There should be stronger leadership with people who are prepared to stand up and say, "that's really stupid, we're not going to do that because it will lead to our downfall." Agreed, we need someone to stand up government wise and break the chain. This sort of thing WILL destroy the EU, it is just a matter of time and which method, or how peaceful it is.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 12:11:05 GMT
Post by Tim on May 11, 2017 12:11:05 GMT
A simple example of the waste of money in Government was the expenses scandal.
They've spent plenty of time since then looking around to try and find a way to resolve it to everyone's satisfaction but the simple fact remains that as an employee I am bound by HMRC guidelines so MPs should fall under the same regime. Instead they've probably spent millions trying to avoid doing it that way. The issue of their pay is a separate matter.
It's a tiny example but spread it out across the whole of Government and imagine the waste.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 15:04:16 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 11, 2017 15:04:16 GMT
Let's face it we can all be comfortable about immigration from our middle class enclaves. That nice European girl who serves us our coffee in Costa, the guys that hand wash our cars, and indeed all the nice people we come across in the Health Service - all good. In fact a good friend of mine is married to a Polish lady who came across here with her son to work in the Goring in London. When I hear people saying they can't understand why anyone would be mad enough to vote for Brexit I think of some conversations I've had in the last few months - the mate who is losing his small tiling business as every tender he puts in is undercut hugely by Eastern European tradesmen - he's going to lose his house, and the strain is causing his marriage to fail. A £650 million power plant was announced for Teesside - good news, lots of jobs for out work Teessiders - except the contract has been awarded to a Spanish company who are looking to import everything, even the site welding contract has been given to an agency who find it easier to import Romanians, pay them less and put them up 4 to a house, rather than interview local guys. As one welder said to me; "I've seen my hourly rate almost halved and the three bedroom house I was going to rent for my family has been split up into separate rooms as the landlord can make more money that way".
My sister-in-law is a midwife in the NHS in York, hugely overworked but now over 50% of the deliveries she assists with are babies with at least one parent born outside the UK. I had a doctor's appointment last week and I hadn't been for ages but even I was surprised when of the 4 other people waiting to see the doctor, 2 had interpreters with them as they didn't speak any English.
So is all this enough to make me vote Leave and demand an end to immigration, no but we do need to have an unemotional debate about what level of immigration we want and need without accusations of racism being bandied about. I have a very good friend whose parents are from Pakistan and he said to me " I voted Leave, which may sound hypocritical, but we're in danger of changing the face of this country so quickly that eventually there will be a backlash and I and my family will get caught up in it - that's my fear". Of course let's not forget that it's all very well saying that we want to leave the EU and control immigration but we can already control non-EU immigration and we do that very badly so I can't see what hope we have.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 15:24:34 GMT
Post by racingteatray on May 11, 2017 15:24:34 GMT
Let's face it we can all be comfortable about immigration from our middle class enclaves. [...] Of course let's not forget that it's all very well saying that we want to leave the EU and control immigration but we can already control non-EU immigration and we do that very badly so I can't see what hope we have. Accurate on both counts.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 15:40:00 GMT
Post by PG on May 11, 2017 15:40:00 GMT
I have had to go to Strasbourg for work quite regularly the last few years - we bought a company there. When the EU parliament is not there, it is like a ghost town. When the EU parliament is there, every bar and restaurant is full, hotels cost more and the place does very nicely. Strasbourg is the only town I've been to where a very high percentage of the taxis are brand new BMW's or Mercs.
The whole move of the parliament is an expensive charade.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 15:55:37 GMT
Post by Tim on May 11, 2017 15:55:37 GMT
Of course let's not forget that it's all very well saying that we want to leave the EU and control immigration but we can already control non-EU immigration and we do that very badly so I can't see what hope we have. I think the worst part of this is that for the past 18 months it's been used as a propaganda pawn by the people who are making such a piss poor job of controlling it and yet they haven't been challenged on it at all.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 16:24:56 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 16:24:56 GMT
It seems like any other political policy where three D's dominate, Disinformation, Deflection, Denial.
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The EU
May 11, 2017 18:11:27 GMT
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 11, 2017 18:11:27 GMT
Let's face it we can all be comfortable about immigration from our middle class enclaves. How beautifully patronising of you. The environment I work in is anything but, I see it and support it every day of the week. Irrespective of whether the comment about your sister in law is remotely true, live-births in the UK are not at a peak whether one of the parents is from the UK or not - she will be busy but due to investment decisions rather than immigration. It had to be said. Call it patronising how you like but it's true. We're all in the fortunate position of none of us competing in the job market with imported labour driving down our wages and none of us are competing in the housing market for accommodation either. By the way, according to the ONS live births peaked in 2012 at 730,000 and since then they have dropped slightly to 698,000 in 2015, 28% to non-UK born mothers.
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