|
Post by PG on Jun 22, 2019 19:37:19 GMT
Interesting article on the DT online today -
Driving is a political act in the battle to live independently of the state
..... this September, Mr Khan [Mayor of London] is planning to do precisely this to another set of road users. His “Car-Free Day” will see motorists banned from 12.3 miles of roads in the capital. People will be encouraged to see the city “from a different perspective”. “Public space” will be recaptured, say his campaigner allies, and they presumably hope that it will never be taken back.
I understand the arguments: air pollution is obviously a problem, and it is one that is being rapidly addressed through technological progress. But why, then, is Mr Khan banning electric vehicles from the roads, too, along with hybrids?
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the green-socialist campaigners he is appeasing are afflicted by pure, ideological car-hatred. Some of them see cars as monstrous products of consumerist greed compared to the healthful puritanism of the bike; others regard public transport as the epitome of collectivism, to be encouraged at the expense of the motorist who is considered to clutter up “public space” (we used to call it the road) and get in the way of the buses.
And we are letting them get away with it, all over the country. Unlike in America, the car has not come to be viewed in Britain as an extension and enabler of individualism and freedom. It can take you where you like, when you like. Each car is private property and highly personalised, down to whatever rubbish is stashed in the footwells.
It is also private. Many people like to drive alone, and I don’t blame them. Where else can you find the space to think? And yet we largely take cars for granted, even as everywhere the roads are choked through neglect or active restrictions on the space allowed to drivers.
It is an ideological battle that one side isn’t even aware that it is fighting. Yes, rage against fuel duty, potholes, arbitrary parking fines, senseless road calming schemes, bus lanes, endless traffic lights, and the outrageously dumb advice that led millions to buy diesels and then get thwacked for doing what they were told. But driving is now also a political act, and restrictions on it are attacks on the ability of individuals to live independently from the state.
I have thought for some time that lefties hate cars as they are statements of freedom and of the success of capitalism. Motorists are right up there for lefties with people who save and work hard and buy a bigger house and those murderers of the oppressed masses - landlords and landowners. Time to rise up and reclaim the roads maybe?
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jun 22, 2019 19:53:55 GMT
Yes, the politicians would have us go back to the dark ages. No cars, little public transport. A few very wealthy individuals who own a majority of the land and a majority of the businesses. The rest of us live in housing provided by these wealthy landlords, and walk to work at the end of our street so that we hardly pollute as we commute. At least food will be delivered to us, courtesy of on-line shopping........
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 24, 2019 15:07:36 GMT
Yes, the politicians would have us go back to the dark ages. No cars, little public transport. A few very wealthy individuals who own a majority of the land and a majority of the businesses. The rest of us live in housing provided by these wealthy landlords, and walk to work at the end of our street so that we hardly pollute as we commute. At least food will be delivered to us, courtesy of on-line shopping........ I don't think that's what politicians would have at all. I think they want a 1984 style control where everyone gets paid a modest wage, lives in a grey identical box, has little mobility and does what they are told without thinking - what they can't seem to realise is that Stalin tried that and it eventually failed. Revisiting failures seldom ends in success.
|
|
|
Post by scouse on Jun 24, 2019 15:12:11 GMT
Yes, the politicians would have us go back to the dark ages. No cars, little public transport. A few very wealthy individuals who own a majority of the land and a majority of the businesses. The rest of us live in housing provided by these wealthy landlords, and walk to work at the end of our street so that we hardly pollute as we commute. At least food will be delivered to us, courtesy of on-line shopping........ Well, the eco-weenies want that, I think John C's point is more apt for the politicians. If I win the eurosquillions tomorrow, I'll be buying something utterly offensive, that gets the shittiest mileage, with the biggest, noisiest fucker of an engine, just to drive around city centres with the sole purpose of annoying the eco-loons. I'm thinking a Hummer H1, retrofitted with either the big Audi V10 diesel or the new Chevy LSX. Let's see you climb up and stick one of your 'poor vehicle choice' fake parking stickers on this windscreen, Swampy.
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Jun 24, 2019 17:39:39 GMT
I might not do that...but watching the BBC's excellent 5-part series on Margaret Thatcher, I am reminded that I generally agree with a number of her core views. Specifically having no truck with issues around middle class guilt, not viewing wealth creators as suspect because they get rich too, and thinking that it is incumbent on people to work hard to get what they want and not expect it to be delivered on a plate. And just to be clear, that's not the same thing as thinking she got everything right - she manifestly didn't. I don't think any of that is inconsistent with having a liberal outlook.
But it is why I could never be a member of the Labour party.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 18:11:34 GMT
Is he barring buses, taxis, vans and lorries as well? If not, it's pretty fucking pointless.
|
|
|
Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 24, 2019 18:43:37 GMT
Is he barring buses, taxis, vans and lorries as well? If not, it's pretty fucking pointless. Buses appear to be part of the transport options available on the day, as "sustainable transport". It would be interesting to see what actual difference to air quality Car Free Day actually makes, because I rather suspect, given the ULEZ presumably deters most car users, the difference will be next to fuck all. And when I was in that there London city last month, most of the traffic was made up of buses and taxis. The open top tour buses, in particular, were not exactly new vehicles, nor many of the taxis. If 22 September is World Car Free Day, I will certainly celebrate it. By going on a nice blast along some nice roads.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 23:03:51 GMT
Not going to be a 28 Days Later type experience where everyone can wander out into the road safe in the knowledge they won't get run over then, is it? Even if it was you'd still get mown down by a cycle courier with headphones on and no brakes on their bike before you'd walked more than a few hundred feet!
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 25, 2019 9:08:45 GMT
Is he barring buses, taxis, vans and lorries as well? If not, it's pretty fucking pointless. Buses appear to be part of the transport options available on the day, as "sustainable transport". It would be interesting to see what actual difference to air quality Car Free Day actually makes, because I rather suspect, given the ULEZ presumably deters most car users, the difference will be next to fuck all. And when I was in that there London city last month, most of the traffic was made up of buses and taxis. The open top tour buses, in particular, were not exactly new vehicles, nor many of the taxis. If 22 September is World Car Free Day, I will certainly celebrate it. By going on a nice blast along some nice roads. As usual this appears to initially be a London-centric problem leading to the rest of us being afflicted with shit legislation, same as the congestion charge. I can walk out my front door, take in lungfulls of fresh air and not have to worry about diesel particulates*. That's because I live in the countryside. Perhaps we could encourage more decentralisation and improve air quality across the board? This may seem a little heartless but last year there was a case of a teenage girl who died in London, I think she had some respiratory issues and the blame for her death is laid at the door of pollution. Fair enough, and if I've got some of that wrong please correct me, but I wondered why her caring parents hadn't considered the option of not living in London given that she had (I think) suffered her health issues for a number of years. I mean, you don't HAVE TO live in a pollution ridden city because we do still have freedom of choice..... * Of course, I do need to worry about getting cancer through the inhalation of harmful, carcinogenic pesticides but I think I'll take my chances.
|
|
|
Post by PG on Jun 25, 2019 9:39:51 GMT
When I worked in London in the late 1980's there were bus strikes on a few times. The roads were blissful and the traffic flowed way, way better.
We all have goals in life. No matter what else happens, if in my old age I can still afford to run some form car - even in the face of the political opposition and ridiculous tax rules - to run about in I will consider my life a success. When did you last see happy people on a bus service?
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Jun 25, 2019 9:52:06 GMT
Traffic through the Congestion Charge Zone (where the ULEZ currently applies) is definitely currently better at weekends than it used to be, because while the CCZ doesn't apply overnight and at weekends, the ULEZ is 24/7, so many weekend drivers have to avoid it to avoid paying £12.50.
Noticed this coming back from Suffolk on a Sunday late afternoon a few weeks back. Normally the route along the river and through the bottom of the City from Canary Wharf/Limehouse to Chelsea would be clogged and crawling. Instead the traffic was noticeably light and we got through in half the usual time.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 10:48:35 GMT
I very rarely drive into the centre of Newcastle or Durham these days. Parking in both cities is a headache for a 2.1m Land Rover. The train is better from Riding Mill or Stocksfield into the Toon or I use the park and ride in Durham.
I suppose I will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century when ICE are banned completely. I can see it happening in my lifetime.
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 25, 2019 11:04:11 GMT
I suppose I will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century when ICE are banned completely. I can see it happening in my lifetime. I think we are a good 15 years away from that and even then, it will be the sale of new ICE cars which will be banned. I think there will be a lot of older ICE vehicles on the road for some time to come: perhaps not a lifetime but not far off it - there is no way that the infrastructure to provide the electricity for 100% electric vehicles and charging can be put in place in anything less than 10 to 15 years, unless society changes and we are prevented from driving completely, having to take the future equivalent of a taxi everywhere.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 11:07:47 GMT
I think they will price fuel out of existence to all but the super rich. I hope I'm wrong and that your scenario is more likely.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 25, 2019 11:13:15 GMT
I very rarely drive into the centre of Newcastle or Durham these days. Parking in both cities is a headache for a 2.1m Land Rover. The train is better from Riding Mill or Stocksfield into the Toon or I use the park and ride in Durham. I suppose I will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century when ICE are banned completely. I can see it happening in my lifetime. Newcastle is £3 all day on a Sunday and plenty of spaces to park. It's a joy compared to Saturdays.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 11:23:56 GMT
It's the vehicle height which is the problem, rather than fiding a space.
|
|
|
Post by PG on Jun 25, 2019 12:05:25 GMT
I think they will price fuel out of existence to all but the super rich. I hope I'm wrong and that your scenario is more likely. If road pricing comes in - as I fear is inevitable at some point as how else can "they" tax non-ICE vehicles? - ICE cars can be priced off the road by being charged penal rates. Either that or in a reverse of the current situation, as the electric or hydrogen infrastructure expands, petrol stations will start to disappear.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 12:08:01 GMT
A friend of mine is seriously considering installing an underground tank and filling it with VPower.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 12:53:38 GMT
Petrol goes off, doesn't it? That's why a lawnmower refuses to start after a winter in the shed.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 12:55:40 GMT
Only if exposed to air apparently. He has researched it. That was the first comment I made.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 25, 2019 12:58:56 GMT
I think that would be a foolish thing to do, there won't be any shortage of petrol in the next 30 years - how long is he expecting to live for?
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jun 25, 2019 13:11:50 GMT
I think they will price fuel out of existence to all but the super rich. I hope I'm wrong and that your scenario is more likely. If road pricing comes in - as I fear is inevitable at some point as how else can "they" tax non-ICE vehicles? - ICE cars can be priced off the road by being charged penal rates. Either that or in a reverse of the current situation, as the electric or hydrogen infrastructure expands, petrol stations will start to disappear. That's another potential benefit of living in the sticks - the road pricing proposal always says it'll start with motorways and there are very few of them on any route I travel on. Unless they actually force the fitting of GPS tracking to older cars then I'll be fine, as long as the parts supply continues for any non-satnav equipped car I own.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 13:31:08 GMT
I think that would be a foolish thing to do, there won't be any shortage of petrol in the next 30 years - how long is he expecting to live for? At what cost?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 25, 2019 13:32:53 GMT
I think that would be a foolish thing to do, there won't be any shortage of petrol in the next 30 years - how long is he expecting to live for? At what cost? A lot less than digging a hole and putting a tank in and filling it with fuel. But if he's worried about cost put the money he would have spent on the aforementioned in an investment account and use that to pay for his £10 a litre petrol in 2049. Is he going to be stockpiling ammunition and baked beans as well? Anyway, it's pointless as petrol stored for over a year, even in sealed tanks, starts to break down into its component parts so by 18 months or so it would be useless. And you can't store more than 15L at home - up to 275L if you notify the council and follow their guidelines.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 13:35:01 GMT
I reckon he has £10m in cars as rough guess. I don't think the expense of digging a tank worries him. The ready availability of the desired fuel, despite your assurances does.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 25, 2019 13:40:31 GMT
I reckon he has £10m in cars as rough guess. I don't think the expense of digging a tank worries him. The ready availability of the desired fuel, despite your assurances does. As I say, the petrol goes off after a year at most. Pointless exercise.
|
|
|
Post by LandieMark on Jun 25, 2019 14:13:02 GMT
I don't pretend to have done the research. He has looked into it as a serious proposition. Other than that I have stated, I don't know the details.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jun 25, 2019 19:05:10 GMT
Petrol goes off, doesn't it? That's why a lawnmower refuses to start after a winter in the shed. For a normal-sized lawn, a lawnmower is probably the only vehicle where an EV makes sense over a petrol or diesel alternative
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Jun 26, 2019 7:40:06 GMT
I don't pretend to have done the research. He has looked into it as a serious proposition. Other than that I have stated, I don't know the details. I think i'd just emigrate to USA. I can't see the majority of the USA losing its love for the car and all things petrol. He should get a lifetime of petrol fumes over there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 11:50:41 GMT
For those with the means, distilling fuel from various sources might just be workable. Bio gas is certainly a method that could be used by farms etc to produce fuel for ICE power for some time to come, perhaps cleaner than current fuels. It depends on how much effort folk want to put into it. Is there a solid case for a localised business? Possibly.
|
|