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Post by johnc on May 21, 2019 10:23:32 GMT
I seriously dislike venture capitalists since they are just like vampires and will keep sucking their victim's blood until they drop dead. The principle of venture capitalists is sound but in practice they all get too greedy and often kill the patient.
British Steel is now in need of urgent help and have come to the Govt cap in hand. Should they be helped?
My feeling is that there are some industries that a country just can't afford to allow to fail and steel manufacture is one of those, so my feeling is yes they should be helped but ownership or part of it should come back to the nation and the VC's should suffer their share of the loss. My fear, if you hand a VC money is that they will find any way they can to hang on to it and pass the loss to others.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 10:26:34 GMT
If there is help it should be owned by the nation. As you say, VC's run companies into the ground making what profit they can with little/no interest in long term survival. If we pay into the bail out it should be ours and the VC's can make irregular progress westwards.
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Post by Tim on May 21, 2019 10:42:22 GMT
If there was some way to achieve what John suggests then yes, save it.
Perhaps the Government could take a share of the business, similar to what happeneed with RBS/HBOS, etc?
Isn't Fourseasons Health in the same position, specifically because of being owned by a VC?
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Post by scouse on May 21, 2019 11:21:04 GMT
I seriously dislike venture capitalists since they are just like vampires and will keep sucking their victim's blood until they drop dead. The principle of venture capitalists is sound but in practice they all get too greedy and often kill the patient. British Steel is now in need of urgent help and have come to the Govt cap in hand. Should they be helped? My feeling is that there are some industries that a country just can't afford to allow to fail and steel manufacture is one of those, so my feeling is yes they should be helped but ownership or part of it should come back to the nation and the VC's should suffer their share of the loss. My fear, if you hand a VC money is that they will find any way they can to hang on to it and pass the loss to others. Funny how the French always seem tobe able to save their firms/industries when this type of things happen, but we always hide behind the 'well that's the free market'. |
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Post by johnc on May 21, 2019 11:23:20 GMT
We use software from a cutting edge company who grew to become best in market by a long shot. The founders sold out to VC's about 15 years ago and the company continued to grow exponentially until the first VCT sold out to another VCT about 8 or 9 years ago. Ever since, the price has risen a minimum of 5% p.a. (often 10% p.a.) and little or no development has been carried out except that which was a statutory requirement: customers are leaving in droves and they make no attempt to keep them because that would mean discounting and they don't discount. What they have failed to notice is that other software providers have products that do 80% of what their product does for 20% of the cost. Unfortunately no-one has yet managed to build a full replacement but they are getting there and there are now parts of the product that can be ditched for much cheaper and better alternatives. VC's will kill the product through greed.
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Post by racingteatray on May 21, 2019 12:02:05 GMT
I seriously dislike venture capitalists since they are just like vampires and will keep sucking their victim's blood until they drop dead. The principle of venture capitalists is sound but in practice they all get too greedy and often kill the patient. British Steel is now in need of urgent help and have come to the Govt cap in hand. Should they be helped? My feeling is that there are some industries that a country just can't afford to allow to fail and steel manufacture is one of those, so my feeling is yes they should be helped but ownership or part of it should come back to the nation and the VC's should suffer their share of the loss. My fear, if you hand a VC money is that they will find any way they can to hang on to it and pass the loss to others. I haven't paid enough attention to this story yet to have much of a view (I know - don't die of shock).
I have sympathy for your comments about VC though.
Without knowing much about the situation, I think my position (in general, not merely with relation to steel) is that if we are really going to go ahead with Brexit, then we need to have our own industries in order to not become overly reliant on imports.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 21, 2019 12:53:31 GMT
VC want their money back in 5-7 years tops and can be fairly ruthless in achieving that.
British Steel is an sound business - they're just fucked because they've been locked out of the EU's carbon credit scheme and have to pay the tax for last year's emissions. The EU has suspended the carbon credit scheme for UK companies until Brexit is sorted out - pretty disgraceful really as we're still members. They never miss a chance to fuck us over. We should support British Steel by paying this bill for them and just deducting it from our annual EU payment.
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Post by PG on May 21, 2019 13:22:00 GMT
VC want their money back in 5-7 years tops and can be fairly ruthless in achieving that. British Steel is an sound business - they're just fucked because they've been locked out of the EU's carbon credit scheme and have to pay the tax for last year's emissions. The EU has suspended the carbon credit scheme for UK companies until Brexit is sorted out - pretty disgraceful really as we're still members. They never miss a chance to fuck us over. We should support British Steel by paying this bill for them and just deducting it from our annual EU payment. VC's are not called Vulture Capitalists for nothing. Why has the UK government not demanded that carbon credits be issued as we are still members of the EU at this point? Or might drawing attention to that just inflame leaver sentiment, and that would never do would it..... I think that strategic industries need to be supported. The French manage it. The Germans manage it. |
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Post by scouse on May 21, 2019 15:07:14 GMT
Part of the problem from my point of view is that our political class either doesn't have a clue or doesn't give a fuck about heavy industry in general. They seem to not give a shit about the very real effects of their decisions such as the climate levies on power bills or things such as the carbon credits. To me it's a sign of their incompetence that they have not demanded the issue of carbon credits from the EU or announced that UK firms would no longer have to be part of such schemes if the EU were not willing to do so.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 21, 2019 15:23:24 GMT
Part of the problem from my point of view is that our political class either doesn't have a clue or doesn't give a fuck about heavy industry in general. They seem to not give a shit about the very real effects of their decisions such as the climate levies on power bills or things such as the carbon credits. To me it's a sign of their incompetence that they have not demanded the issue of carbon credits from the EU or announced that UK firms would no longer have to be part of such schemes if the EU were not willing to do so. One hand washes the other, unfortunately. The EU is of the opinion that too much steel is being produced in Europe and is therefore against State Aid for EU steel companies. Once steel is no longer being produced in Europe we will then import it all from China. I do deal with one Forgemaster in Sheffield who is only still in business because its overdraft is underwritten by BAE Systems at the insistence of UK Government because they realised (only late in the day. mind) that if they went bust there would be no one to produce steel for the nuclear subs being built at Barrow. So it can be done if they really want to. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 15:35:28 GMT
Brings up the biggest problem with the eu, the rest of the nations in the club (We still are right now) all break every ruling and regulation they want but WE stick to the bloody rules. The additional idiocy our plebs come up with is just putting icing on the baked beans on toast. It may look pretty in a picture but tastes gopping. I think a lot of the policy mistakes go back to one M Thatcher who wanted the UK economy to be service based and said so.
With all the money wasted on various military projects and nhs projects etc, we could have a bloody good military and nhs. Reality is a pain in the grass.
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Post by racingteatray on May 21, 2019 21:55:21 GMT
Brings up the biggest problem with the eu, the rest of the nations in the club (We still are right now) all break every ruling and regulation they want but WE stick to the bloody rules. The additional idiocy our plebs come up with is just putting icing on the baked beans on toast. It may look pretty in a picture but tastes gopping. I think a lot of the policy mistakes go back to one M Thatcher who wanted the UK economy to be service based and said so.
With all the money wasted on various military projects and nhs projects etc, we could have a bloody good military and nhs. Reality is a pain in the grass.
Well indeed. But given our national penchant for creating rules and laws for everything, gold-playing the bloody things and then adhering rigidly to them in a world where few others do the same, I fear that we will fare no better outside the EU than in it. |
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Post by grampa on May 23, 2019 10:56:54 GMT
Whilst I appreciate the need to save jobs, surely it's a better plan to help industry move with the times? There are thousands of jobs lost every day in all sorts of industries - how do you decide which ones to save? - is there any reason that steel workers should fare any more luckily than say print workers (an industry I've been in and one that has gone through massive upheaval in the UK and shed many thousands of jobs).
Yesterday for instance there was an announcement that plastic straws won't be allowed to be used after next year - will there be any help for those who make their living from making/selling the things?
How about all in the UK employed in making IC engines - any plans to help them in the not too distant future.
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Post by johnc on May 23, 2019 11:20:30 GMT
The problem with steel is that it is an essential for almost any construction or major infrastructure project. Without our own steel manufacturing capability we are at the mercy of foreign manufacturers. Chinese steel is cheap because of the low cost of labour but I know many who don't trust it. Certificates of the quality, strength and technical specifications have been known to be falsified with inferior steel being supplied instead. If you are building a tall building or a bridge this is something that you cannot take chances with. Steel from Europe isn't greatly different in price from the steel we produce but if we are going to be a stand alone nation again, I don't think we have any choice except subsidising or nationalising such essential manufacturers and industries. Going it alone is going to need a slightly different mindset.
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Post by racingteatray on May 23, 2019 11:44:28 GMT
The problem with steel is that it is an essential for almost any construction or major infrastructure project. Without our own steel manufacturing capability we are at the mercy of foreign manufacturers. Chinese steel is cheap because of the low cost of labour but I know many who don't trust it. Certificates of the quality, strength and technical specifications have been known to be falsified with inferior steel being supplied instead. If you are building a tall building or a bridge this is something that you cannot take chances with. Steel from Europe isn't greatly different in price from the steel we produce but if we are going to be a stand alone nation again, I don't think we have any choice except subsidising or nationalising such essential manufacturers and industries. Going it alone is going to need a slightly different mindset. This is bringing back memories of 70s and 80s Fiats, Alfas and Lancias built with crap Soviet steel! |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 23, 2019 12:33:31 GMT
The problem with steel is that it is an essential for almost any construction or major infrastructure project. Without our own steel manufacturing capability we are at the mercy of foreign manufacturers. Chinese steel is cheap because of the low cost of labour but I know many who don't trust it. Certificates of the quality, strength and technical specifications have been known to be falsified with inferior steel being supplied instead. If you are building a tall building or a bridge this is something that you cannot take chances with. Steel from Europe isn't greatly different in price from the steel we produce but if we are going to be a stand alone nation again, I don't think we have any choice except subsidising or nationalising such essential manufacturers and industries. Going it alone is going to need a slightly different mindset. A few years ago a mill in Sweden let us down with a delivery of Super Duplex 25% chrome steel for a subsea project. Our client sourced some in China and flew it to Shanghai, then to London, before trucking it to us. It arrived with all the correct material certs but when we put our PMI gun on it the it was reading as 316 Stainless Steel, fine for a cheap wristwatch but potentially catastrophic if it had been installed in the North Sea, where it would have corroded away in no time, leading to an expensive clean up operation. We scrapped the lot. It took us quite a while before we trusted Chinese steel suppliers again. |
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Post by Tim on May 23, 2019 12:33:35 GMT
This is bringing back memories of 70s and 80s Fiats, Alfas and Lancias built with crap Soviet steel! Or 1990s Mercs..... I'm sure I got told their cheap steel got routed through Argentina to give it some legitimacy. Either that or it was sourced in Argentina but it was definitely routed through somewhere else. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 23, 2019 12:50:02 GMT
The problem with steel is that it is an essential for almost any construction or major infrastructure project. Without our own steel manufacturing capability we are at the mercy of foreign manufacturers. Chinese steel is cheap because of the low cost of labour but I know many who don't trust it. Certificates of the quality, strength and technical specifications have been known to be falsified with inferior steel being supplied instead. If you are building a tall building or a bridge this is something that you cannot take chances with. Steel from Europe isn't greatly different in price from the steel we produce but if we are going to be a stand alone nation again, I don't think we have any choice except subsidising or nationalising such essential manufacturers and industries. Going it alone is going to need a slightly different mindset. This is bringing back memories of 70s and 80s Fiats, Alfas and Lancias built with crap Soviet steel! The irony was the Italian Communist Party negotiated a deal whereby, in return for a load of low grade steel, the Italians would set up a car plant on Russia to make the Fiat 124 (Lada). The Russians, aware of their bad winters, beefed up the entire car and made it out of decent steel so they survived for years. |
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Post by racingteatray on May 23, 2019 15:16:04 GMT
Indeed. The Togliatti factory in Samara.
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