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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 13:03:16 GMT
Laboured and Snot partlies today, file 13 STAT.
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Post by Eff One on May 15, 2019 13:49:15 GMT
We've had Lib Dems, Greens and Change UK. Haven't seen anything from the Tories, which is unusual. Winchester was one of the councils they lost control of (to the Lib Dems) a couple of weeks ago.
Nothing from Labour (ever) or Brexit.
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Post by racingteatray on May 15, 2019 13:52:28 GMT
I'm going to disagree. I voted leave and would happily call someone a cunt if they kept on insisting that I did so because I was a racist/bigot/xenophobe. There's a difference between "voted leave" and "will still vote leave".
And in the latter case, I stand by what I said, irrespective of what terms of abuse are used. It's not being sanctimonious or holier than thou. It's being logical and being furious at what I see as the wilful and obtuse sabotage of our country for no readily apparent gain.
As I have pointed out:
- if I'm wrong and we Brexit, there aren't any serious real-life consequences and I will happily be relieved to have been wrong; - if I'm wrong and we don't Brexit, there aren't any particular real-life consequences either way - it is the status quo;
- if I'm right and we don't Brexit, there aren't any particular real-life consequences - it is the status quo.
- if I'm right and we Brexit, we're in a world of shit.
So really, who is being arrogant here?
When watching Question Time the other day with Farage, I simply couldn't understand why no-one grilled Farage on the "but what if you are wrong" angle. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 15, 2019 13:54:40 GMT
UKIP today. They included my middle initial on the address, which suggests they know me..
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Post by racingteatray on May 15, 2019 14:02:42 GMT
Who says I don’t understand? Perhaps I understand only too well but people are not prepared to recognise their real motives. That's a rather lofty statement to make. How many leavers have you spoken with to come to the conclusion you know their motives better than they do? I still don't think condemning those who hold a different opinion to you is the way to win the battle for hearts and minds.
I know quite a lot of leavers, including family members, and none of them has ever given me a convincing rationale for their views other than those who were perfectly happy to express some eye-wateringly far right-wing opinions. None has ever displayed a convincing grasp of the economic consequences of leaving beyond a firm view that Brexit is worth it no matter the consequences. I find that level of blind certainty completely horrifying. |
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Post by michael on May 15, 2019 14:32:55 GMT
None has ever displayed a convincing grasp of the economic consequences of leaving beyond a firm view that Brexit is worth it no matter the consequences. I find that level of blind certainty completely horrifying. I think this might be your problem. For a lot of people the economic consequences are less important to their day to day lives as they feel they've been left behind - the working poor. It would be arrogant to dismiss this section of the population as racists. |
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Post by Tim on May 15, 2019 15:45:40 GMT
None has ever displayed a convincing grasp of the economic consequences of leaving beyond a firm view that Brexit is worth it no matter the consequences. I find that level of blind certainty completely horrifying. I think this might be your problem. For a lot of people the economic consequences are less important to their day to day lives as they feel they've been left behind - the working poor. It would be arrogant to dismiss this section of the population as racists. Doesn't that raise the question of why they feel they've been left behind though? I'd say it certainly isn't due to the EU but perhaps at least some of these people have fallen for a bit of marketing from sources who aren't in favour of the EU. I mean, Farage may loudly denounce the EU but he's made a pretty good sum of money by working in it and its only latterly that his desire to leave has actually been achieved. His attempts to become a Westminster politician have failed to the extent that when he leaves his role as an MEP he may be in danger of having to join a dole queue. I bet he didn't see that coming 5 years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 16:43:55 GMT
I did not vote leave because I am a racist or a bigot, nor did I vote leave because I see a pot of gold or whatever.
I voted leave because the EU is NOT what it said on the tin when we joined and is getting worse all the time. Joining a untied states of europe is the polar opposite of where the eu should be going but that is where they are going. They waste money hand over fist and holding on to water would be easier. A customs union would be the same without voting rights. When the referendum was held there was none of this deal crap on the table just leave or stay, the idiot class decided we voted for a deal which they were going to get they then decided that we should take no deal off the table giving the advantage to the eu.
I thought we lived in a democracy, or is that only if we vote to do what SOME people want?
The same people who want a second referendum are aghast at the thought it might open the door for a third referendum ad nauseam.
We voted leave so let's get going, we can sort out trade when WE have the upper hand or at least a level playing field. I expect the eu elections here will be the worst turned out elections, possibly since they began so what will THAT prove?
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 13:31:54 GMT
What happens if we find out that we don’t have the upper hand and it’s not a level playing field?
What then do we do?
Because that’s what I think will happen. I don’t say that’s fair. But just because something isn’t fair doesn’t make it any less likely.
No one’s claiming the EU’s wonderful. But I am disputing the utterly ungrounded assertions that leaving it in this cack-handed manner will improve matters in the UK, especially for the left-behind, who will simply now become the left-behind in a left-behind country.
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2019 13:42:49 GMT
I'm not clear on how we would have the upper hand.
It's us - a country of around 65M people - against them - a group of countries totalling around 500M people.
Where does the balance of power lie?
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Post by michael on May 16, 2019 13:59:55 GMT
All this was discussed prior to the referendum so it's a bit late to try using arguments that have already failed to gain support to overturn the result. If you want to change the result you need a new strategy.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 16, 2019 14:02:41 GMT
What happens if we find out that we don’t have the upper hand and it’s not a level playing field? What then do we do? Because that’s what I think will happen. I don’t say that’s fair. But just because something isn’t fair doesn’t make it any less likely. No one’s claiming the EU’s wonderful. But I am disputing the utterly ungrounded assertions that leaving it in this cack-handed manner will improve matters in the UK, especially for the left-behind, who will simply now become the left-behind in a left-behind country. I think what Mike's saying is that he'd rather live in a democracy and be 10% poorer, than 10% richer in a totalitarian state. Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth, Mike. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 14:07:38 GMT
No worries, Bob. Pretty much what I was saying. The fear rhetoric is going up hand over fist and is a pretty poor method of change. If we kept the leave without a deal option the eu would have a much tougher time pushing us around and the trade balance is well in their favour. Time the eu stopped thinking it is their way or the highway.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 16, 2019 15:42:20 GMT
I'm not clear on how we would have the upper hand. It's us - a country of around 65M people - against them - a group of countries totalling around 500M people. Where does the balance of power lie? The EU is keen to do trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Australia etc. All these economies are smaller than ours. In the trade talks with these countries does the EU act like a bully, because it's larger? No, because it wouldn't get them anywhere - these countries are strong enough to sit round the table and agree a deal that is mutually beneficial. A deal has to be a win for both sides otherwise why agree to it? Taking no deal off the table was a big mistake but let's face it; only another in a long list of mistakes. |
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Post by johnc on May 16, 2019 15:53:54 GMT
I'm not clear on how we would have the upper hand. It's us - a country of around 65M people - against them - a group of countries totalling around 500M people. Where does the balance of power lie? The EU is keen to do trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Australia etc. All these economies are smaller than ours. In the trade talks with these countries does the EU act like a bully, because it's larger? No, because it wouldn't get them anywhere - these countries are strong enough to sit round the table and agree a deal that is mutually beneficial. A deal has to be a win for both sides otherwise why agree to it? Taking no deal off the table was a big mistake but let's face it; only another in a long list of mistakes. But it took Canada something like 5 years to get their deal. I don't disagree with your logic but the timescale and the intervening damage, worries me. |
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2019 15:55:41 GMT
I'm not clear on how we would have the upper hand. It's us - a country of around 65M people - against them - a group of countries totalling around 500M people. Where does the balance of power lie? The EU is keen to do trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Australia etc. All these economies are smaller than ours. In the trade talks with these countries does the EU act like a bully, because it's larger? No, because it wouldn't get them anywhere - these countries are strong enough to sit round the table and agree a deal that is mutually beneficial. A deal has to be a win for both sides otherwise why agree to it? Taking no deal off the table was a big mistake but let's face it; only another in a long list of mistakes. Quite. So why are we talking about waiting until we have the upper hand (which we wouldn't have anyway)? That would be madness, we'd need to do a deal ASAP. Obviously I'm ignoring the possibility that the EU might be a tad awkward during the process to set an example for other EU countries that might be foolish enough to consider leaving, whereas the countries you listed as examples have never been part of the EU! |
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 17:38:20 GMT
To describe the EU as a totalitarian state is self-evidently preposterous though.
Russia under Stalin was a totalitarian state. Gulags, informants, secret police, state control of all industry, no political dissent allowed even in secret.
By contrast, Putin’s Russia isn’t a totalitarian state, let alone the EU.
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 17:46:57 GMT
All this was discussed prior to the referendum so it's a bit late to try using arguments that have already failed to gain support to overturn the result. If you want to change the result you need a new strategy. It's ought to be extremely alarming that stating the obvious and pointing out the realities of life doesn't cut it as a strategy.
The "I've made my decision so I'm sticking with it" approach just strikes me as completely irrational.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 16, 2019 17:56:52 GMT
The EU is keen to do trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Australia etc. All these economies are smaller than ours. In the trade talks with these countries does the EU act like a bully, because it's larger? No, because it wouldn't get them anywhere - these countries are strong enough to sit round the table and agree a deal that is mutually beneficial. A deal has to be a win for both sides otherwise why agree to it? Taking no deal off the table was a big mistake but let's face it; only another in a long list of mistakes. But it took Canada something like 5 years to get their deal. I don't disagree with your logic but the timescale and the intervening damage, worries me. Don't forget the EU and Canada were starting from widely different points in regard to agriculture, fisheries, commerce, food and drug standards etc. Whereas the UK and the EU are starting from the same point in these areas. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 16, 2019 18:00:00 GMT
To describe the EU as a totalitarian state is self-evidently preposterous though. Russia under Stalin was a totalitarian state. Gulags, informants, secret police, state control of all industry, no political dissent allowed even in secret. By contrast, Putin’s Russia isn’t a totalitarian state, let alone the EU. Oh well as long as the EU isn't as bad as Stalin's Russia that's OK then. How easy it is to stand by and watch democracy die as long as it doesn't interfere with one's comfortable life. |
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 18:07:32 GMT
To describe the EU as a totalitarian state is self-evidently preposterous though. Russia under Stalin was a totalitarian state. Gulags, informants, secret police, state control of all industry, no political dissent allowed even in secret. By contrast, Putin’s Russia isn’t a totalitarian state, let alone the EU. Oh well as long as the EU isn't as bad as Stalin's Russia that's OK then. How easy it is to stand by and watch democracy die as long as it doesn't interfere with one's comfortable life. Oh come off it. I seriously doubt you genuinely think democracy in the UK is at risk of dying as a result of the EU such that in our lifetimes we will end up in an EU equivalent of Stalin’s Russia! What instead should scare people is Steve Bannon and his plans for, amongst other things, an elite academy in Italy to educate the future leaders of the world under the Bannon far right creed. All the world’s leaders educated in one place to one worldview? Now there’s your risk of totalitarianism. And Farage gets on famously with Bannon. |
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 18:10:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 19:18:20 GMT
"Oh come off it. I seriously doubt you genuinely think democracy in the UK is at risk of dying as a result of the EU such that in our lifetimes we will end up in an EU equivalent of Stalin’s Russia"! The democratic process, holding a free and fair election and abiding by the result. Unless there are people who cannot abide others getting a democratic result in their favour. Those pushing for a second referendum are just wanting to poo poo the result of the first while denying the possibility of a third etc. This whole process has been Shanghaid by remainers from the moment the first referendum went against them and frankly it is sad and smacks of poor grief management. We voted as a nation, democratically to leave the eu. If you care so much for democracy, take note of the result of that 'people's vote' or, if you like being in the eu so much, go live there. If the referendum is chucked away with this weeks advertising leaflets we get so much of, then, democracy will be dead in the UK. It is very simple. Like the eu, go live there.
BTW, if you are so worried about Steve Bannon perhaps you should not live in the eu because there is a shit load of right wing extremists all over the place.
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 19:59:53 GMT
"Oh come off it. I seriously doubt you genuinely think democracy in the UK is at risk of dying as a result of the EU such that in our lifetimes we will end up in an EU equivalent of Stalin’s Russia"! The democratic process, holding a free and fair election and abiding by the result. Unless there are people who cannot abide others getting a democratic result in their favour. Those pushing for a second referendum are just wanting to poo poo the result of the first while denying the possibility of a third etc. This whole process has been Shanghaid by remainers from the moment the first referendum went against them and frankly it is sad and smacks of poor grief management. We voted as a nation, democratically to leave the eu. If you care so much for democracy, take note of the result of that 'people's vote' or, if you like being in the eu so much, go live there. If the referendum is chucked away with this weeks advertising leaflets we get so much of, then, democracy will be dead in the UK. It is very simple. Like the eu, go live there.
BTW, if you are so worried about Steve Bannon perhaps you should not live in the eu because there is a shit load of right wing extremists all over the place.
Several points:
1. I don't agree it was a fair election. It cannot be fair when it was won by promising voters an outcome that exists only in fantasy.
2. I'll remind you that Mr Farage loudly proclaimed it to not be a fair election until he realised he had won it and then of course it was sacrosanct.
3. Telling people whom you disagree with to leave the country is not in the slightest bit democratic - rather it is pure majoritarianism (and frankly I think many Brexiteers mistake that separate concept for democracy).
4. Are you not worried about Steve Bannon?
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Post by michael on May 16, 2019 21:09:00 GMT
It's ought to be extremely alarming that stating the obvious and pointing out the realities of life doesn't cut it as a strategy.
The "I've made my decision so I'm sticking with it" approach just strikes me as completely irrational.
But that's exactly what you're doing. You're repeating the same failed arguments and hoping for a different result. The reason these arguments were not successful was because for a lot of people it wasn't about money. Until you accept this you will not be able to make arguments that are credible with a significant body of the voting public. This is one reason why they argue democracy dies, because they are being ignored and their vote is the only way to effect change. We need to make the argument for change and so does the EU if there is to be any chance of remain winning a second referendum. I'd love to see remainers campaign with the same energy they have on the streets of London to ask the EU to commit to reform. Doing this wouldn't only be good for the UK, it would be good for the many EU states who are experiencing a rise in anti-EU sentiment and voting for more extreme parties.
Instead of doing this, or having any other workable strategy, all we've heard from the remain lobby are tantrums that people voted the wrong way, character smears and campaigns for a second vote they have no hope of winning. |
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 21:54:27 GMT
No I’m not. I would change my view if the facts merited it. They simply do not.
And I disagree entirely with the assertion that most people voted to have Brexit even if it cost them. I’d wager that the majority voted for Brexit because they simply don’t believe it will cost them. After all they were promised it wouldn’t.
Plus you are being disingenuous to say that we can switch now to trying to reform the EU in the time available. If we hadn’t rushed into triggering Art.50, then your suggestion could have had legs. But we cannot do that now because we have no grounds to do so. No-one will listen. If we revoke Art.50 then perhaps we can think again but I don’t see how we can otherwise.
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Post by racingteatray on May 16, 2019 22:21:21 GMT
Anyway, my approach to this is not about getting what I want. It’s about, and only about, fighting to stop something that I think will be an utter disaster. That’s just called having a sense of responsibility. I deeply wish I didn’t sometimes. It would be easier.
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Post by scouse on May 17, 2019 9:18:08 GMT
Anyway, my approach to this is not about getting what I want. It’s about, and only about, fighting to stop something that I think will be an utter disaster. That’s just called having a sense of responsibility. I deeply wish I didn’t sometimes. It would be easier. A perfect example of why remain lost (despite their continual lies and massive spending). 'I know better than you, therefore I have responsibility to keep telling you you are wrong and therefore ignore your vote'. For the last time: It wasn't just about economics. Immigration played a part - why should there be different immigration laws to EU citizens to the rest of the world? Why can anyone from the EU walk into the UK on a minimum wage job, claim child benefit, tax credit etc for a family back in Latvia or Bulgaria, yet a qualified surgeon from India or Japan have to prove he has a job to go to and can support his family without recourse to public funds? Yet we leavers are the racists? We want our laws decided by British parliament and courts. 'The EU hardly has any say on our laws' the remainers said throughout the referendum, yet after they lost it's now 'We are too intertwined with the EU to leave'. We do not want further integration or transfer of constitutional power to the EU. We do not want to be part of an EU army. I'm more worried about George Soros' influence than Steve Bannon's. And Steve Bannon is Far Right? Give over. At least Stalin didn't pretend to be a democrat. We have NO say in the election of the European Commission or it's Presidents. We can elect MEPs, but quite frankly that counts for two tenths of fuck all. We have a veto now, but what happens when Qualified Majority Voting comes in? |
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Post by Tim on May 17, 2019 9:35:44 GMT
I didn't think there was any doubt that Steve Bannon is far right?
Certainly all the stuff around his involvement in the Trump campaign and his prior history appear to point to that.
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Post by scouse on May 17, 2019 9:51:08 GMT
Far right? As in Nazi far right? As in Fascism? Do me a favour.
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