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Post by Alex on Apr 20, 2017 8:26:17 GMT
I live in one of the conservatives safest seats so I can vote for whoever I like and it'll make bugger all difference to the election result. I'm tempted not to vote for the, though as are some colleagues I've spoken to. Yes they will still win our seat but any reduction in their majority will at least send the message that they shouldn't be complacent and that we want them to work for us. Doubt the message will get through but you never know.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 8:29:01 GMT
I vote for who I want to be in government rather than play games on matters so important.
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Post by PetrolEd on Apr 20, 2017 8:34:34 GMT
The Lib Dems must be dancing in the street, what an opportunity for them to pick up a load of votes from the disenfranchised ex Labour supporters who just can't bring themselves to vote Conservative.
Fingers crossed for a large Conservative win. I do find the prospect of a Labour/SNP/LibDem coalition hugely scary.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 20, 2017 8:35:29 GMT
I vote for who I want to be in government rather than play games on matters so important. Me too. If if I had to do the Brexit thing all over again, there isn't any certainty that I would still vote remain.
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Post by grampa on Apr 20, 2017 8:38:05 GMT
I live in one of the conservatives safest seats so I can vote for whoever I like and it'll make bugger all difference to the election result. I'm tempted not to vote for the, though as are some colleagues I've spoken to. Yes they will still win our seat but any reduction in their majority will at least send the message that they shouldn't be complacent and that we want them to work for us. Doubt the message will get through but you never know. I doubt reductions in majorities in individual constituencies make any difference at all (or increases for that matter) - the only thing any party will care about is the number of seats they have.
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Post by Alex on Apr 20, 2017 8:51:28 GMT
I live in one of the conservatives safest seats so I can vote for whoever I like and it'll make bugger all difference to the election result. I'm tempted not to vote for the, though as are some colleagues I've spoken to. Yes they will still win our seat but any reduction in their majority will at least send the message that they shouldn't be complacent and that we want them to work for us. Doubt the message will get through but you never know. I doubt reductions in majorities in individual constituencies make any difference at all (or increases for that matter) - the only thing any party will care about is the number of seats they have. And you are probably right but as the Tories have held our seat for so long with such a large majority they no longer even bother campaigning, it would be nice if some attempt was made to let them know that not everyone agrees with their policy or indeed the referendum result. Like I say though, it makes little difference to the outcome of this seat. I think the overall turnout for this election will be one of the lowest on record. Tory voters will come out in their droves enjoying the victory they are about to see but voters for the other parties will likely just stay at home. The only exception I see to this is the Lib Dems who may win a few extra seats by campaigning on the basis they'll reverse Brexit (not that they can but they've nothing to lose in pretending) and the SNP who'll be using this as an Indy 2 campaign.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 9:02:54 GMT
I'm a Tory and I'd vote conservative but if there is to be any tactical voting it would be for centre Labour voters to also vote Tory as it's their best chance to rid their party of Corbyn. As much as I am a Tory I also know that without a credible opposition we're all screwed so I want Labour to recover but that means they need to endure a final punishment beating. It's not just Corbyn, of course. I long for the day that I can watch the news without risk of Diane Abbott making an appearance.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 20, 2017 9:55:32 GMT
As much as I am a Tory I also know that without a credible opposition we're all screwed so I want Labour to recover but that means they need to endure a final punishment beating. It's not just Corbyn, of course. I long for the day that I can watch the news without risk of Diane Abbott making an appearance. +1 The biggest issue is that this whole Brexit bollocks was started to settle a division on Europe within the Conservative party in the face of a gaining of ground by an extremist one-policy group of baboons called UKIP; nothing to do with being in or out per se, more to do with deciding which way the party should lean on Europe. So "lean" means err towards, not dive in with both feet or cut off all ties but too many morons in the party want extremes. I fancy UKIP are toast; Lib-dem candidates will see some gains, but whether or not that equates to seats is another matter, and Labour will see some staunch refuse-to-vote-any-other-way-because-I-still-think-I-live-in-a-Victorian-work-house votes and lose some marginals and maybe gain some (Croydon being one I reckon). There will be an increased Conservative majority but not as huge as the Torygraph are suggesting.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 20, 2017 10:43:52 GMT
I long for the day that I can watch the news without risk of Diane Abbott making an appearance. + eleventy million to that.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 20, 2017 10:49:47 GMT
As Kissinger once remarked about the Iran/Iraq war: "It's a pity both sides can't lose".
I can not and will not vote for the Tory party. They acted unforgivably in their own narrow interest and I will not condone that by voting for them. Plus I don't agree with their policies.
Corbyn cannot win. The LibDems would not join a coalition which puts Corbyn as PM. To suggest otherwise is Daily Mail-style scaremongering. As is the hogwash about the need fpr "strong government" which just smacks of Erdogan to me.
We have a regrettably strong government already largely thanks to Labour's inadequacies rather than any virtues on the part of the Tories. We certainly don't need a stronger one. We need above all a strong opposition. Not a rubber stamp for May.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 10:58:14 GMT
How do you see a strong opposition being realistic without the Militant wing of Labour being beaten out?
Comparisons to what is going on in Turkey are a joke.
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Post by johnc on Apr 20, 2017 11:09:16 GMT
The problem that Labour are going to face, even after a Corbyn gubbing, is that they have changed the method of selecting the leader.
The leader is chosen by the membership and by that very definition, that means people who believe in Corbyn like policies. It's the same with most Political parties - they have a relatively small membership made up of people who are largely political activists: these people do not generally reflect the feelings and aspirations of the majority of the general public.
In a slightly ironic twist, MP's who often don't reflect the view of the public either, are generally better at spotting someone who will appeal to the electorate.
I think Labour made a huge mistake in the method of electing their leader because with Union backing and membership, they may never again field someone who is capable enough or suitably popular to win an election, other than, perhaps through some coalition.
My constituency used to be Labour, then became Liberal and is now SNP. In the last General Election, the Tories were 3rd, so tactical voting is the only method I have of influencing the result in my constituency. I would like proportional representation because then I can vote for the party/individual I want to support and I don't need to play games anymore. I am sure there must be millions in the country who don't vote or feel their vote is wasted because of a large majority in their constituency.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 20, 2017 11:56:48 GMT
How do you see a strong opposition being realistic without the Militant wing of Labour being beaten out? Comparisons to what is going on in Turkey are a joke. Are they? Don't be sure.
May, who has an authoritarian streak to her, armed with no effective opposition and Henry VIII clauses permitting her to side-step parliament when setting legislation? You don't have to be a lawyer to find that an unpalatable prospect.
Our system of democracy is predicated on having a government that needs to mind its P&Qs due to facing an opposition that could offer a credible alternative or at the very least one with potential appeal to an electoral majority. Shorn of that, it potentially runs out of checks and balances quite quickly, especially when the government has the backing of the rabid end of the popular media.
But be an ostrich about it if you like.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 12:04:12 GMT
Erdogan is an Islamist who is trying to reduce democracy in his country in order to maintain power for a decade. Theresa May has called an election and is unlikely to see through her term.
Furthermore the suggestion that it is her fault that there is no effective opposition is ridiculous. We don't have an effective opposition now, as in the opposition she inherited. The only chance of one forming is for Corbyn to stand down before the next NEC in order that the so called McDonald clause is not voted for.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 20, 2017 12:34:09 GMT
I never suggested that it was her fault there was no effective opposition. But she didn't need to call another election. Doing so is party political opportunism. You can dress it up any other way you like but ultimately she wants to cement the Tory stranglehold on power. The difference is not as pronounced as you make out. The ideology may differ but the motive is the same one.
Why do you think she is unlikely to see it through? Her health?
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 13:12:50 GMT
Mainly her health and age. She is type 1 diabetic which must take its toll at any age let alone in that kind of job. I've also heard she isn't enjoying it.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 20, 2017 15:23:21 GMT
The former I knew, the latter I had not heard.
I can quite imagine it's not enjoyable. She has an utterly impossible task.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 18:29:00 GMT
Must admit I like a lot of what Corbyn says. Not all, obviously, but what he actually says rather than what's reported. The media, including the BBC, seem unduly worried by him.
It was interesting to see the rallies for him in various cities utterly blanked in the mainstream media, but widely shown on 'social media' - Twitter and all that jazz.
Like him and his policies or not, I'd rather him than an 'electable' Blair II, at least he's an alternative (whether you like his policies or not - there should at least be a debate, different stances) and not the utterly terrifying Wicked Witch of Westminster.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 18:32:24 GMT
What in all seriousness do you like that he says?
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Post by Alex on Apr 20, 2017 19:30:13 GMT
What in all seriousness do you like that he says? I caught a bit of his speech earlier that was talking about big business profiting at the expense of their employees and the problems of wage stagnation and I liked what I heard him pledge to do about it, but sadly it is probably unacheivable and pissing off the 'rich elite' is unlikely to get anyone elected.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 19:33:19 GMT
I heard him complaining but I didn't hear him announce anything new or what he'd actually do about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 22:11:57 GMT
Consummate politician then.
I could list the things he's said that I like, which openly published pledges, but it's pointless. I'm not a campaigner, there will always be a counter view, we choose which party fits our world view the best - or the least worst.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 21, 2017 8:22:42 GMT
Agreed, likewise commentators will always point out how the same BBC is a 'right wing mouthpiece' or 'socialist plot' as people tend to interpret information how they want to. Clearly it's a socialist plot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2017 8:25:41 GMT
I love the 'go back to your constituencies' tone of Labour - they don't believe it themselves. And stating that anyone who suggests their chances are nil is a mainstream stooge just sounds so student political. I'm more of a natural Labour voter than anything else, but am not party political and never will be. But I can't abide Corbin - he is putting his own interest before that of his party, and therefore before those he purports to want to help most. Not that I would like to see him elected, mind. Too close to retirement to want to be part of the generation that pays for whatever it is his notion of wealth redistribution would amount to.
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Post by grampa on Apr 21, 2017 8:47:25 GMT
What in all seriousness do you like that he says? I caught a bit of his speech earlier that was talking about big business profiting at the expense of their employees and the problems of wage stagnation and I liked what I heard him pledge to do about it, but sadly it is probably unacheivable and pissing off the 'rich elite' is unlikely to get anyone elected. I would like to see fairer distribution of wealth in business as well, but first you have to get people to appreciate 'the other side' - all very well for an employee to moan about a business owner having a large wage, flash car etc, but they have to appreciate that he/she probably got there by putting everything he/she owned on the line and working a 70-80 hour week for less than he was paying his/her workers - would many people do that? - probably not. Then by the same token said boss should also appreciate that if he/she has built a successful business it is only because people who work for the business have also been prepared to work hard, so only fair that they have a just reward for their efforts too. Too many bosses see workers as a 'problem and an expense to be minimised' and too many workers see their boss as someone who has a much easier life than them - if some clever person could come up with policies that could encourage businesses of all shapes and sizes to truly increase the feeling of a team working together, I'd love to to hear them. The idea of 'fairer distribution of wealth' can only happen successfully when everyone feels that each other deserves their slice of the cake.
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Post by michael on Apr 21, 2017 9:07:25 GMT
I appreciate Corbyn says things people want to hear, everybody likes the idea of getting something for free, but he claims to want to make the rich pay when already they pay more than anyone else and in that vein most of his policies sound plain bitter. Then of course he claims not to be establishment having been a career politician for thirty odd years. I suppose if you can overlook all that it's probably also easy to overlook him being a terrorist sympathising anti Semite.
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Post by grampa on Apr 21, 2017 9:15:38 GMT
I appreciate Corbyn says things people want to hear, everybody likes the idea of getting something for free And therein lies the problem - if he was saying, everyone should have the opportunity of making more effort to get more, it might work, but the idea of getting stuff for free is never going to work with those who have to work to provide others to get it for free. First and foremost, politicians have to understand basic human nature.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 21, 2017 10:37:02 GMT
Corbyn talks tired out-of-date bollocks. I liked this comment on Corbyn by George Walden (a former Tory Minister of humble origins): "At best he is a pious moralist aspiring to the condition of a holy fool. The poor man is not of this world and would do better to enter the church - any church - where he can chant its eternal verities to his heart's content".
All that banging on about the "People". I'd like to jab him in the eye with a stick with the word "People" carved on it.
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Post by Tim on Apr 21, 2017 10:51:30 GMT
I would like to see fairer distribution of wealth in business as well, but first you have to get people to appreciate 'the other side' - all very well for an employee to moan about a business owner having a large wage, flash car etc, but they have to appreciate that he/she probably got there by putting everything he/she owned on the line and working a 70-80 hour week for less than he was paying his/her workers - would many people do that? - probably not.
I think the issue here is against the highest earning company directors - the kind who get a contractual bonus despite the company making large losses and the share price having tumbled (I think that happened with Aviva when the share price was around 10% of its previous value and the same CEO had been in post for a few years yet still got a bonus).
However, although it makes good headlines its a 'campaign' against a relatively small number of people.
There should however be some increased regulation/law around the make up of, for example, remuneration committees that at the larger companies appear to be staffed by a bunch of back-scratching high earners who are unaccountable. Having said that NEXT have hammered their senior execs pay on the back of some less than stellar, but still decent, results. Maybe a bit of common sense is breaking through slowly.
Again though, its a small pool of people that attract the most attention.
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Post by garry on Apr 21, 2017 10:59:01 GMT
I was at a family party in Doncaster last night. They're mostly loyal labour voters (i'm the black sheep in that regard!), but they will not vote for Corbyn. There were three themes; they don't trust him with defense, they don't trust him with refugees, they think he'll spend loads. They are mostly in favour of Brexit and want it to happen. May is sufficiently neutral and seen as safe and capable that I think she'll pick votes up even in Doncaster. (btw, this was an area where there were street parties when Thatcher died). I think it will be a labour wipe out, with just those who blindly tick that red box voting for Corbyn. 150 seats? I also think it's not fixable because of how labour elects leaders.
We've got a messy few years because of two bad decisions; Cameron stupidly took the bait on the brexit vote, and Milliband instituted a voting system that means the labour party are destined to pick candidates that appeal to the membership, not the country. At a time when we need proper scrutiny and debate on brexit, a diminished opposition will spend their time in endless conversations as to whether Corbyn wasn't left wing enough, or blaming the media or Tony Blair.
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